Doctrine of Hell

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
jpbg33
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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#151

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:01 am

You are taking most those verses way out of context they are not all talking about hell and I would be carful calling God the lake of fire. He is not the lake of fire. The bible said that the lake of fire is eternal. The bible also says that when the devil is cased into the lake of fire the finale time that the false prophets are already in the lake of fire. they were not consumed but they were still there false prophets are just people and if they do not get consumed in the fire nether will anyone else. Jesus said in hell there is welling and gnashing of teeth people are not dying because of the fire they are being tormented. The Bible tells us that people that never here the gospel will still go to hell but that we will be held responsible for not telling them. That is why it is so important that we go out and tell as many people as we can. I do not wont anyone to go to hell but according to the bible most will go there " Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Matthew 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.". The bible says " Ecclesiastes 11:3 If the clouds be full of rain, they empty themselves upon the earth: and if the tree fall toward the south, or toward the north, in the place where the tree falleth, there it shall be. " and in context of the chapter it was referring to the fact that when you die you destiny is finale. When the bible says that God is a consuming fire it is referring to the fact that God will destroy the wicked. It was talking about the wrath of God not that he was the lake of fire. and about God creating hell. It said he prepared it for the devil and his angels. It said prepared it in the same sense as we prepare a room for our guests.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#152

Post by Starhunter » Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:19 pm

Storyteller wrote:The honest answer is I don`t know but perhaps because if someone has not chosen God and does not choose God then they would be unhappy?

I trust God implicitly, He knows what He`s doing and I truly believe He will always offer the chance to turn to Him, maybe even after death. I think, maybe, that if someone still chooses to deny God and follow Him then it is in their best interests to be denied entry to Heaven. If you don`t believe, if you don`t want to follow Christ and God then I think Heaven wouldn`t be Heaven to you. Why would you want to be somewhere you don`t fit in? As in being somewhere that goes against everything you believe in?

I worry sometimes about the people I love who don`t believe in God but I also believe God is just and fair so if someone, on finally seeing God, has that Eureka moment then they will still be forgiven. Am I right in thinking that God wants ALL of his lost sheep to return to the fold? Personally, I`m toying with the idea that God will not rest until every single one of us turns to Him, including the fallen.
You have answered it in your question "then they would be unhappy?"

Heaven is a place of happiness and contentment, because people have allowed Christ into their hearts to reign, so that envy, jealousy, covetousness, immaturity, selfishness, ambition, greed, and a hundred other dysfunctions, even doubt, do not control the individual.
All these traits cause a person to suffer anxiety, have insecurity, it makes them guarded and embarrassed when someone shows them love, they are never satisfied, never settled, never comfortable, always clamoring for something.

They would enjoy heaven for a while, maybe a decade, but eventually the traits of character they took with them to heaven, would become a burden, and their dissatisfaction would drive them to either go insane or start some kind of evil scenario.

After a while, heaven would be torture to them, and the longer the time goes on the more they would suffer.

The whole purpose of God disciplining us is not in His interest, but ours, He knows what eternity is, and He knows what kind of person one needs to be in order to be able to do eternity. Jesus told us what that is, "unless you will become as one of these little ones (a child) you will not enter heaven. Natural humility, trust and love.

So by keeping the doubtful and proud out, He is sparing them a life of incredible dissatisfaction and torture.
His judgement is one of mercy.

So then, the doctrine of God putting people into a place of torture for ever, is the devil's lie, and people will not let it go because they are able to twist the scriptures to prove their point of view, just like the pharisees who knew scripture and killed our Lord.

For you to care about the unsaved, even hoping that after death they can be saved, is the attitude of God in you. He feels the same and agonizes over the loss of His children, "not willing that any should perish, but that all should be saved."

How sad is the day of judgement to God? How sad this whole thing of sin and rebellion from beginning to end?

The agony of Christ on the cross, asking God to forgive His enemies, is proof of what is in the depths of the heart of God.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#153

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:51 pm

here is a verse that say people are tormented for ever and ever

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I hate that people will be tormented for ever but that is the consequences of living a sinful life.

If people would just accept Jesus Christ as there savior than they would not have to go there.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#154

Post by Starhunter » Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:05 pm

jpbg33 wrote:here is a verse that say people are tormented for ever and ever

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I hate that people will be tormented for ever but that is the consequences of living a sinful life.

If people would just accept Jesus Christ as there savior than they would not have to go there.
Then they don't die. The wages of sin is death, or is it everlasting life?

A text without a context is a pretext.

Some of the wicked will be tormented and and night alright, but they will die, while the flames will not until they die.
the Bible says the wicked will be ashes under our feet.

Sin demands the death of the sinner. If not then Christ could have been tormented for us and not died.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#155

Post by B. W. » Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:36 pm

Starhunter wrote:
jpbg33 wrote:here is a verse that say people are tormented for ever and ever

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I hate that people will be tormented for ever but that is the consequences of living a sinful life.

If people would just accept Jesus Christ as there savior than they would not have to go there.
Then they don't die. The wages of sin is death, or is it everlasting life?

A text without a context is a pretext.

Some of the wicked will be tormented and and night alright, but they will die, while the flames will not until they die.
the Bible says the wicked will be ashes under our feet.

Sin demands the death of the sinner. If not then Christ could have been tormented for us and not died.
Not so as that goes against God's gift of life that he will not take away as well as diminishes all who he is. in fact, that would cause God to deny himself. Suggest you take the time and look into this more.

Again the torment is self inflicted - they reap what they have sown. Life without and against God - that is what they receive. God does not take away life into a state of non-existence for if he did so, that goes contrary to who he is as the Living God who keeps all his promises, and takes away no gift. With this kind of knowledge, that is how Satan got away with rebellion - he knew God will not zap him into oblivion so he tries to entrap God to go contrary to his God's own nature in the interim. While doing so, God is stacking evidence against him because God is slow to anger and more absolutely just that our human pea sized brains cannot comprehend it fully.

Have you experienced evil? Have you experienced dysfunctional behavior?

Do you really know what really lurks even within the nicest of people - what levels of dysfunction all are capable of?

Never measure sin by the fruit of stealing, lying, adultery and the like. It has more to do with a love for dysfunction more than God's freedom he offers through Jesus Christ. There is a lot of meaning in this phrase: it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#156

Post by jpbg33 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:48 pm

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

the fact that they are going to the lake of fire is what God is referring to as death.

our physical body is the only thing that dies how we think of death. our soles live on for ever.

You are miss reading that verse

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

it says smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever and they have no rest day nor night.

the only way you can take that is that they are burning for ever and they have no rest in the day or in the night.

You will not find in the bible that your self inflicting torment on your self in hell someone may have said that while preaching but that isn't in the bible.

the bible says you burn in hell then you burn in the lake of fire.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#157

Post by Starhunter » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:10 am

1. If God gave His only Son to save the world,
2. If God is not willing that any should perish,
3. and not willing that any should suffer torment in heaven,
why would He send them to be tortured in another place?

What is the point of doing that to God and to them? What is to be gained by such suffering worse than anything Satan could inflict?

What is it supposed to achieve? Repentance? No, improvement of character? No. Pleasure for anyone saved? No.

Revelation also says that Jesus has the keys of hell and death. But if sinners can't die then Jesus has lost those keys.

The only reason God gives life, is so that He can have the joy of looking after it. Revelation says all things are made for His joy.

What joy does a chamber of eternal torture bring to God?

Is God is a psychopath and a sadist? Only Satan is, so who is being worshiped by this doctrine of eternal torture.

If the texts in Revelation suggest immortal sinners, you would have to find out how many texts support the death of the soul.
But what people have done here is add the doctrine of the immortal soul, and call anything like death as just a phase, and not actual non existence.

God gives life and takes it away, on conditions. He has the keys of hell and death, He will end sin and sinners, they will not live forever.


If you hurt my family, I would allow you to be arrested and pay the fine or whatever, but I would not under any circumstances inflict any more pain onto you, not even a minute, let alone forever.

Can't you see that this doctrine is of the devil? Can't you see how he supports his vile ideas through scripture?

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#158

Post by jpbg33 » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:35 am

Well that is what the bible says it is torment in fire for ever and ever

Reason it away if you wont to but it will not change a thing if the bible says it is for ever then it is for ever


Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

whether we would or would not do something dose not mean any thing we are not God.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#159

Post by Katabole » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:41 am

Hi Jpgb33.

Here is a lecture by Edward Fudge. I found it to very educational and fair. Grab a drink and spend just over an hour of your time watching it. I am not asking you to believe it, just watch with an open mind.

The Fire that Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of Hell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHUPpmbTOV4
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Every one that is of the truth hears my voice. Jesus from John 18:37

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#160

Post by jlay » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:55 am

jpbg33 wrote:here is a verse that say people are tormented for ever and ever

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I hate that people will be tormented for ever but that is the consequences of living a sinful life.

If people would just accept Jesus Christ as there savior than they would not have to go there.
Wait? This says those that worship the beast, not simply those who sin. That would be a conscious rejection of one object of worship to embrace another.
The wages of sin is death, not Hell.
Did Jesus die for some sins or for all? If so, then the issue of Hell can't simply be that we have sinned, for all have sinned.

FWIW, the Bible never says to 'accept Jesus.' I can accept a lot of things, that doesn't mean my confidence is in them. For example a person might hedge their bets and say, I accept Jesus, and Buddha, and Vishnu, and Allah, and my lucky rabbits foot.
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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#161

Post by jpbg33 » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:08 pm

The bible say you can not serve two masters you will love one and hate the other.

I know that the people there were people that follow the beast but they were regular people and that is proof that regular people burn for ever.

Jesus said he was the only way that no man cometh to the Father except by him.

I do not care what some person said in a video. The bible says to let God be true and all men a liar.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#162

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:24 pm

jlay wrote:
jpbg33 wrote:here is a verse that say people are tormented for ever and ever

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I hate that people will be tormented for ever but that is the consequences of living a sinful life.

If people would just accept Jesus Christ as there savior than they would not have to go there.
Wait? This says those that worship the beast, not simply those who sin. That would be a conscious rejection of one object of worship to embrace another.
The wages of sin is death, not Hell.
Did Jesus die for some sins or for all? If so, then the issue of Hell can't simply be that we have sinned, for all have sinned.

FWIW, the Bible never says to 'accept Jesus.' I can accept a lot of things, that doesn't mean my confidence is in them. For example a person might hedge their bets and say, I accept Jesus, and Buddha, and Vishnu, and Allah, and my lucky rabbits foot.

Correct, the wages of sin is death, we all sin so we all die and on death we have "paid" for sin.
Hell is for those that reject Christ, that blasphemy the HS.

BUT, I am not sure what you mean by this:
FWIW, the Bible never says to 'accept Jesus.'
Of course it does, unless you are looking for the actual word "accept":

http://www.openbible.info/topics/accepting_christ


http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Accepting-Christ

See, it is important to understand that BELIEF is the core of Christianity and salvation and you can't believe if you don't accept and by accepting we believe and by believing we accept.

It's semantics really but if we do not accept then we reject and it is very clear what happens to those that reject.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#163

Post by jpbg33 » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:33 pm

You go to hell for not accepting Jesus as your savor. Not just for blaspheming the Holy Ghost. The bible doesn't say the people that follow the beast blasphemed the Holy Ghost.

The bible say that the fact that you were sent to the lake of fire is the second death. it is not that you literally die. If is were that you just die if you are not saved then if you were saved then you would not die. Christians are promised eternal life.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#164

Post by Starhunter » Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:45 am

Why would a Christian, or anybody for that matter, need a promise for eternal life if they live forever already?

And by the way, the smoke of their torment rises up forever, not the people burn forever. Show me one text that says people live forever in hell, and I'll show you a text which says that the flames, punishment and death is eternal.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#165

Post by Kurieuo » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:06 am

Starhunter wrote:Why would a Christian, or anybody for that matter, need a promise for eternal life if they live forever already?
Same reason humanity lived, yet apparently died in the day they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (Gen 2:17)
The same reason we must be "born again" to see the kingdom of heaven. (John 3:3-8)
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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