Doctrine of Hell

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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RickD
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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#166

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:35 am

jpbg33 wrote:You go to hell for not accepting Jesus as your savor. Not just for blaspheming the Holy Ghost. The bible doesn't say the people that follow the beast blasphemed the Holy Ghost.

The bible say that the fact that you were sent to the lake of fire is the second death. it is not that you literally die. If is were that you just die if you are not saved then if you were saved then you would not die. Christians are promised eternal life.
Could you please explain what you mean in the underlined part?

Who promised Christians eternal life?

And if it's God who promised, can that promise ever be broken? In other words, can God lie and break His promise?

I think you understand where this line of questioning is going, and hopefully you can see that you boxed yourself in with your statement. :D
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#167

Post by B. W. » Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:36 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Starhunter wrote:Why would a Christian, or anybody for that matter, need a promise for eternal life if they live forever already?
Same reason humanity lived, yet apparently died in the day they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. (Gen 2:17)
The same reason we must be "born again" to see the kingdom of heaven. (John 3:3-8)
Very good answer K
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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#168

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:07 am

No we need to think about what we are saying about dying and not dying. Why do we need eternal life if we do not really die.

The bible says that God told Adam and Eve that on the day that they eat of the tree of go and evil they would die.

So lets see what happened they both ate of it and what happened nothing they were both still just as alive as you and me.

So did God lie

No apparently he wasn't talking about death as we know it.

It was a spiritual death.

That is why the bible says going to the lake of fire is the second Death.

Just like Adam and Eve when they died spiritually in the garden of Eden and was still alive

when you die the second death you will stile be alive fore ever in the lake of fire.


Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#169

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:11 am

I do not think I backed my self in any corner I wasn't talking about loosing or nor loosing salvation. Just how you misinterpreted what I mean in what I was saying is the same way you are misinterpreting the bible. The verse that are being used to say osas is the truth are being taken out of context the same way.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#170

Post by Rob » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:34 am

Please explain how my interpretation of John 6:35-51 is out of context. I would love to hear it.

Once you are saved you cannot be unsaved. If you are unsaved, then you were never saved.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#171

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:55 am

What I am saying is it is not right to pick a verse out and say see this verse says we are always saved when there are mean verse that say different and then to say all the other verses are just spiritual and this one is not. we should have our religion founded on the whole bible not just one or two verses.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#172

Post by Rob » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:58 am

jpbg33 wrote:What I am saying is it is not right to pick a verse out and say see this verse says we are always saved when there are mean verse that say different and then to say all the other verses are just spiritual and this one is not. we should have our religion founded on the whole bible not just one or two verses.
I agree with you, but I think you're guilty of doing exactly what you say others have done. The verses I cited are direct quotes of Jesus. What was His meaning here in your opinion? Does Jesus change His mind later or something?

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#173

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:05 am

No but there is a possibility that he is referring to people are in the proses of coming to him when they die. which would make other verses fit with that verse more with out saying any of the verses are not literal.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#174

Post by Rob » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:07 am

jpbg33 wrote:No but there is a possibility that he is referring to people are in the proses of coming to him when they die. which would make other verses fit with that verse more with out saying any of the verses are not literal.
Please explain that in detail. I am seriously interested.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#175

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:27 am

Right here for example is says he will raise them up in the last days he is talking about the resurrection of the saints so you could read it as if you come to him that is after us resurrect for the dead.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

My point is not to tell you to believe ones saved always saved is wrong but that if you are saved you will because of your love for God not live a sinful life.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#176

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:33 am

jpbg33 wrote:I do not think I backed my self in any corner I wasn't talking about loosing or nor loosing salvation. Just how you misinterpreted what I mean in what I was saying is the same way you are misinterpreting the bible. The verse that are being used to say osas is the truth are being taken out of context the same way.
Then tell me how if Christians are promised eternal life, as you say, how they can lose eternal life. Was God a liar? Did God promise eternal life when He really meant temporary life? Did He promise eternal life, but have His fingers crossed?

Please explain.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#177

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:43 am

I believe that Eternal life is for people who believe. That the promise he gave was for those that believe and if you stop believing then you no longer believeth in him and it says who so ever believeth not who so ever at one time or another believed.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#178

Post by Rob » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:47 am

jpbg33 wrote:I believe that Eternal life is for people who believe. That the promise he gave was for those that believe and if you stop believing then you no longer believeth in him and it says who so ever believeth not who so ever at one time or another believed.
So, once you believe- if at any point in the future you stop believing- you are not given to Him because He knows you'll eventually stop believing?

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#179

Post by jpbg33 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:54 am

No but if you die not believing then you are not one of the ones coming to him.

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Re: Doctrine of Hell

#180

Post by RickD » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:59 am

jpbg33 wrote:I believe that Eternal life is for people who believe. That the promise he gave was for those that believe and if you stop believing then you no longer believeth in him and it says who so ever believeth not who so ever at one time or another believed.
Two things on that.

First, in John 3:16, the word translated as believes or believeth, is pisteuō. And the way it's written in the Greek, in that verse, shows that it is present tense. It doesn't mean a continuing belief. So your interpretation is wrong on that.

And second, if a believer has eternal life at the moment he believes in Christ, but then loses salvation, then he never had eternal life. He only had temporary life. Eternal or everlasting life in this context, means life that never ends. So if someone has eternal life, he will live forever.

And this is important. You are saying that someone can lose salvation if he stops believing. Or, if he stops believing, you say, he won't live forever.

So either John 3:16 means what it says, and anyone who believes in Christ, from that very moment, has eternal life.

Or, you are correct, and God never really promised eternal life.

And Again, I hope you can see what is pretty obvious.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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