Separation or Annihilation?

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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B. W.
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Re: Separation or Annihilation?

#76

Post by B. W. » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:53 pm

Starhunter wrote:I just wanted to bring up the point BW made about the brazen disregard people may be encouraged to have, if they think that annihilation is just a snap into nothingness.
While I never said that it was as easy as that, I did not take into account of the valid point he made, in more than a couple of posts.

As the saying goes "We have a heaven to gain and a hell to shun."

Separation from God is not something we really experience in this life, because the Holy Spirit dampens that view with comforts, and those who resist this end up quite numb, without any realization that they are separated spiritually.

But on the day of judgement, in the presence of God, this reality will hit home, and we have no idea how painful separation form God is. Jesus knows it by Divinity and by human experience when on the cross He died of a broken heart.
He bore the sins of the world then, it made Him cursed for us.

Those who do not listen to the voice of conscience, will have to experience separation.

So upon reflection I really appreciate what BW posted. Thanks BW.
Thank you, that is encouraging!

Let's just go forth and help as many as the Lord leads us to to enter His Kingdom...

:amen:
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Re: Separation or Annihilation?

#77

Post by B. W. » Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:28 pm

Thee is one more thing that I have been contemplating on is this:

IN the USA especially, there is a move to preach a non-offending gospel. In fact Rom 3:4 is often quoted to support this. However, if one notes the context, the author expresses that this goodness consist of God delaying his wrath toward humanity as enemies of God mentioned in Chapter One. Now read Rom 2:5,6,7,8,9,10,11 what the Apostle Paul says next - well it is very offensive, is it not?

My conclusion is as others have made before me: the gospel offends and must because if not, how could the Holy Spirit work as mentioned in John 16:7,8,9,10,11 ?

This brings to the point, we cannot rely solely on a wishy washy Doctor Jesus feel Good gospel. Instead, we need to back out of the way and let the Holy Spirit work through us to save as many from a terrible fate. Do this, well, will offend the offenders. God often makes people most miserable to awaken their consciousness to their warped ways before showing his mercy and goodness so as they see the need to be saved. Jonathan Edwards wrote something to this effect... I see the wisdom in this now more than I have before and before was a lot too !

God bless you all for you insights as brothers and sisters in Christ, we may agree to disagree on eternal recompense but nevertheless we do have a task to do - for that we can rejoice and if we offend others, well, we'll let Jesus be the Lord in that matter...
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Re: Separation or Annihilation?

#78

Post by Lonewolf » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:15 pm

Who wants to burn in a fiery lake?
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: Separation or Annihilation?

#79

Post by Philip » Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:42 am

God often makes people most miserable to awaken their consciousness to their warped ways before showing his mercy and goodness so as they see the need to be saved !
So true! And so, in their misery, they'll either turn toward God or away from Him. Isn't it strange how so many choose to embrace their misery, instead? God offers them eternal love, peace, joy and eternal life, and yet they not only reject Him, but many also hate Him. Guess that's because it's not offered on their own selfish, self-serving terms.

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Re: Separation or Annihilation?

#80

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:25 am

There is only physical death as our souls never die this is why it is wise and smart to choose the free gift of salvation through Jesus over hell because a person's soul never dies.If a person goes to hell it will be forever.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Separation or Annihilation?

#81

Post by Lonewolf » Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:39 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:There is only physical death as our souls never die this is why it is wise and smart to choose the free gift of salvation through Jesus over hell because a person's soul never dies.If a person goes to hell it will be forever.

Eternal torment in hell could of been adopted from pagan Greco Romano culture(s) and incorporated into the teaching of Universal Roman Catholic church, subsequently the Reformation Protestants continued in the same understanding, and so it continues. I wonder if the Pope and the leaders of the so may Christian churches, I wonder if they really believe in such a hell while they continue in their power and control doctrines?
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: Separation or Annihilation?

#82

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:09 pm

Lonewolf wrote:Eternal torment in hell could of been adopted from pagan Greco Romano culture(s) and incorporated into the teaching of Universal Roman Catholic church, subsequently the Reformation Protestants continued in the same understanding, and so it continues. I wonder if the Pope and the leaders of the so may Christian churches, I wonder if they really believe in such a hell while they continue in their power and control doctrines?
Hell is biblical. For someone who doesn't read the Bible, this may come as a surprise! Here, from Strong's Systematic Theology, page 1033,

The final state of the wicked is described under the figures of eternal fire (Matt 25:41); the pit of the abyss (Rev 9:2,11); outer darkness (Matt 8:12); torment (Rev 14:10-11); eternal punishment (Matt 25:46); wrath of God (Rom 2:5); second death (Rev 21:8); eternal destruction from the face of the Lord (2 Thess 1:9); eternal sin (Mark 3:29).

...not to mention Jesus' story of the rich man and Lazarus in hell, Luke 16:19-31. The punishments undergone by the rich man in hell include, burning, stench, thirst, loneliness, and torture from memories.

You can't eliminate hell from Christianity.

FL :fyi:
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: Separation or Annihilation?

#83

Post by Lonewolf » Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:20 pm

Quote; Saint Augustine from his writing, City of God:

"This seems to have been done on no other account, but as it was the business of princes, out of their wisdom and civil prudence, to DECEIVE THE PEOPLE in their religion; princes, under the name of religion, persuaded the people to believe those things true, which they themselves KNEW TO BE IDLE FABLES; by this means, for their own ease in government, tying them the more closely to civil society."
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: Separation or Annihilation?

#84

Post by Lonewolf » Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:21 pm

FL, Lazarus and the Rich Man is a "Parable"

http://www.messiah-of-god.com/rich-man- ... h-man.html

..
Last edited by Lonewolf on Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Separation or Annihilation?

#85

Post by Lonewolf » Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:44 pm

Hell in Early Christianity

The notion of Hell in early Christianity likely followed the lines of Greco-Roman thought; a very, very few righteous and favored souls came to a pleasant afterlife, similar to the Elysian fields, while the rest, the vast majority, lingered in a non-descript, shadowy, relatively unpleasant afterlife. The stories told of it being a punishment for the wicked, are found in two places: in Jesus’ stories extolling the virtue of compassion and selflessness, in which those who did not follow these rules ended up in torment; and in Revelation, something of an epic in which all of God’s enemies ended up in eternal perdition. Both cases, then, are illustrative in nature. Early Christians did not write extensively on Hell and appear not to have taken these as literally as many do, today.

http://www.earlychristianhistory.info/hell.html
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Re: Separation or Annihilation?

#86

Post by Lonewolf » Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:32 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote: The final state of the wicked is described under the figures of eternal fire (Matt 25:41); the pit of the abyss (Rev 9:2,11); outer darkness (Matt 8:12); torment (Rev 14:10-11); eternal punishment (Matt 25:46); wrath of God (Rom 2:5); second death (Rev 21:8); eternal destruction from the face of the Lord (2 Thess 1:9); eternal sin (Mark 3:29).

You can't eliminate hell from Christianity.. "this may come as a surprise! Here, from Strong's Systematic Theology, page 1033,"
FL :fyi:

You know I never been one who can articulate my understanding on things, thus I defer to others that come closest to the way I read scripture and understand it.

http://www.jesustheheresy.com/Reconsidering%20Hell.pdf

Personally, I do not need a hell to drive me to Christ. The Love of God in Christ is what drives me to Himself.
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: Separation or Annihilation?

#87

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sat Oct 18, 2014 6:06 pm

Lonewolf wrote:You know I never been one who can articulate my understanding on things, thus I defer to others that come closest to the way I read scripture and understand it.
Major error! Don't read theological stuff from gurus until your own foundation in the faith is strong. You get your foundation from reading the Bible with humility and prayer and by asking the HS for understanding. RC Sproul can give you nothing of that. RC Sproul! No wonder you're confused! I'd rather have you reading Benny Hinn or Creflo Dollar...

Get back to the Bible! Forget commentaries until you have the discernment to know which are sensible and which are nonsense.
Lonewolf wrote:Personally, I do not need a hell to drive me to Christ. The Love of God in Christ is what drives me to Himself.
Melodrama annoys me! Hell isn't there to drive anyone to Christ, it serves as punishment for the damned. That's all. If you're Christian, you don't have to worry about hell.

FL y~o)
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Separation or Annihilation?

#88

Post by Lonewolf » Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:26 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Lonewolf wrote:You know I never been one who can articulate my understanding on things, thus I defer to others that come closest to the way I read scripture and understand it.
Major error! Don't read theological stuff from gurus until your own foundation in the faith is strong. You get your foundation from reading the Bible with humility and prayer and by asking the HS for understanding. RC Sproul can give you nothing of that. RC Sproul! No wonder you're confused! I'd rather have you reading Benny Hinn or Creflo Dollar...

Get back to the Bible! Forget commentaries until you have the discernment to know which are sensible and which are nonsense.
Lonewolf wrote:Personally, I do not need a hell to drive me to Christ. The Love of God in Christ is what drives me to Himself.
Melodrama annoys me! Hell isn't there to drive anyone to Christ, it serves as punishment for the damned. That's all. If you're Christian, you don't have to worry about hell.

FL y~o)

Well whenever your guru self decides to write a book, I'll make sure not to read it. We would still be in the dark ages if we allowed people like you to preach and teach what is and what is not appropriate to read. But trust, I don't worry about the hell you preach, I worry about the continuing preaching of the doctrine of eternal torment put on so many people's head when it is not Biblical.
Your outward profession of having put on Christ, has as yet to put off Plato from your heart!

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Re: Separation or Annihilation?

#89

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:15 am

Lonewolf wrote:Well whenever your guru self decides to write a book, I'll make sure not to read it. We would still be in the dark ages if we allowed people like you to preach and teach what is and what is not appropriate to read. But trust, I don't worry about the hell you preach, I worry about the continuing preaching of the doctrine of eternal torment put on so many people's head when it is not Biblical.
I have no intention of writing a book, and I am not a preacher or teacher of the Word. You, however, are woefully ignorant of what the Bible says. Your prideful attitude will keep you in ignorance.

Read your signature line. It applies to the guy in your mirror.

FL :amen:
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: Separation or Annihilation?

#90

Post by B. W. » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:06 am

Simply put, if Universalism is true,

Jesus died in vain and Jesus coming into this world at all is completely unnecessary...

So LoneWolf, is Jesus unnecessary for you?
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PS the article you quoted is flawed and disingenuous. The bible make many points about Hell and the Afterlife as being never ending and one does need need someone with long winded drivel to explain it. Jesus says to avoid it at all cost. Period.
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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