Details of Heaven

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
Lonewolf
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Re: Details of Heaven

#16

Post by Lonewolf » Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:54 am

Starhunter wrote:No wonder so many Catholics turn to atheism, there is no substance to it, but floating fissures of a ghost land. And you have to be dead ?! I do not want to belittle the connection with GOD as you said.

But why is so much written about heaven? because God knows that this world is not always a nice place. Colossians 3:2,Set your mind on the things above and not on the things of earth.

There is absolutely no point in the resurrection if you can ghost it. Note that if we are lucky enough to be alive when that resurrection takes place, you and I don't die, but are given immortality and taken to heaven. I Thessalonians 4:13-18.

We must have a body in heaven otherwise when we eat the food will fall straight through. Luke 24:36-43.

A restoration of man and the entire earth is in God's plans, and this place is real isn't it?
Not only that but God wants to move house to earth, to be on our planet. heaven is not ether but solid, its foundations are sapphires. Isaiah 54:11
Well I don't know about so many Catholics turning to atheism., most Catholics I've known all around me are still "faithful" in their belief that God has come in the flesh and died for their sins. Of course, there is those Catholics that fall prey to JW's, since that is who they (JW's) target the most., but other than those, I do believe that most Catholics stay firm in their belittled faith that they have.

And as to the resurrection, without going into the rapture, armageddon and all of that, i do believe all Catholics believe that they will be resurrected and taken to heaven.

The restoration of man and earth, as well as all things, are also all within what a Catholic believes, otherwise why would they place their hope in the "above" just like everyone else in the Christian world?

And if the body is to be solely in heaven, then why were we put here on earth in an earthly paradise to begin with?
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Re: Details of Heaven

#17

Post by Starhunter » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:30 am

If that's what Catholics believe you can count me in.

The earth was our heaven, it was a paradise, we mucked it up, and God prepared a place for us to stay after this place is destroyed.
Then some time in the future, God brings the city of heaven to earth and recreates the earth into a paradise.

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Re: Details of Heaven

#18

Post by Starhunter » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:04 pm

The earth has limited land that can be inhabited, heaven would not have that limit.
Because it is a mountain, like a planet on its own, having four main cardinal domains due to the square base, its livable surface area is very great.

About 8,500,000 square miles or 12,000,000 sq km. That's the size of the US and Canada, or the upper half of Africa.

Now if that was all inhabitable rather than a percentage like earth, there's plenty of room.

God is a lover of variety, so 12 different countries with their respective gates of entry is quite acceptable. Each country would have about 700,000 square miles of land.

While some parts of the mountain give the illusion of living on a larger planet, other parts like on the four ridges, would make it seem like a smaller planet than earth, with extensive views of the earth below. If you are travelling to the epicenter of heaven, you can look back and see the earth's horizon thousands of miles away.

If you walk in the valleys, heaven is an endless country, but on the mountain ranges, you get a really great view. Isaiah 49:10,11
Last edited by Starhunter on Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Details of Heaven

#19

Post by Starhunter » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:05 pm

The first world, or world before the flood was very different from today, its plant and animal life was healthier and larger.
This original paradise paints a more accurate picture of heaven, and the restored earth.

Genesis 6 talks about giants in those days, which some automatically assume are the offspring of men and angels.
Christ who created the angels, said that angels are neither male nor female and that they don't marry. Genesis also says that after, not before there were giants, the sons of God intermarried with the heathen. Nothing to assume that the giants were caused by intermarriage with angels that cannot procreate. Nothing there to assume that the sons of God means angels and not the sons of the faithful few. Some people just want to believe what they want to believe. The men of the world became mighty because of this intermarriage simply because the lineage of Adam had the intelligence and knowledge of nature far above the rest and they used this knowledge to corrupt the world.Today it is the opposite, Christians wait for the crumbs that fall from the tables of heathen science, and then argue about it.
Adam was created larger than us, about two and a half times the average height today. Noah was a giant and some of his descendants remained giants longer than others, even until the times of King David. But these were often genetic mishaps, since they had six digits instead of five.
There is evidence from fossils that flora and fauna was larger in many cases. In Ezekiel 31:7-9, the trees in Eden are used for comparison in height. I have seen fossils of plant and animal life double the size of today. The large oil and coal reserves in the earth seem to agree that life was far more abundant, that the earth was very green all over.

So I think it safe to assume that if God restores all things to the Eden family that their world will be as before - giant.
Australia has fossils of wombats 3 times the size of today, and emu and kangaroo as well.
Going by the width of some cedar tree fossils their height would have reached nearly a thousand feet.
These proportions suggest other trees like the cotton tree and fig tree would have branches that extend out by a 100 m, and up by 250 - 300 m.

The ancient world was big. It is interesting that the statues of angels in gold, in the temple of Solomon were slightly higher than the height of Adam, who was one reed tall or 7-8 cubits, = 4.2m.
Last edited by Starhunter on Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Details of Heaven

#20

Post by Starhunter » Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:27 am

Isaiah 33:21, talks about rivers big enough for galleys. Galleys were sea faring cargo vessels. The old Jerusalem lacks these rivers and broad streams.
We know there are rivers on earth that are so wide you cannot see the other bank.

All rivers in heaven begin from a stream that flows from under God's throne. Read vision in Ezekiel 47. Psalms 46:4.

In the pre flood world a spring in the garden of Eden fed four rivers to each quarter of the single continent. The earth was not divided until about 100 years after the flood. Genesis 2:10, 10:25. The original world had no rainfall.

There are four basic sides to heaven and each is fed by four rivers which divide into streams rather than converge as they do on earth. Ezekiel 47:5. The water somehow increases with each mile.
It would be like God to make springs come up in any place whether high up in mountains or in valleys. Isaiah 41:18.

As shown earlier, you can follow any stream and it will lead to the epicenter of heaven.
By the time these streams reach the base of the mountain and feed the world, they could be quite broad in some places.
But with 1500 miles on each side, there's plenty of room for many streams and rivers.

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Re: Details of Heaven

#21

Post by Starhunter » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:25 am

Ezekiel was shown in vision a pattern of a metropolis Ezekiel 40:2, which included several things, especially the temple, Ezekiel 43:10. The descriptions begin in chapter 40. It's a bit confusing to work it out, but you get used to what measurement means what.

Basically it was meant to be a square area on the top of a great mountain, this area measures about 55 x 55 miles, enclosed by a thick wall with gates to the four points of the compass.

This area is divided into three sections, the south, north and in between. There are smaller mountains in this whole area. A larger mountain is in the north, on which rests the temple area, about 1.2 miles long on each side. Also enclosed in a wall about 3 to 4 meters high and wide, with entry gates.

The temple itself has quite elaborate gates, which are described in detail. Four arches with rooms on either side in between each archway, opening into a large courtyard and reception area. I think the gates are fairly high, at least 38 meters high?

It's interesting that the entire measurement of the gate or entry is 144 cubits deep, which is the measurement of the height of the wall of the New Jerusalem. Rev 21:17.

All the outer walls in Ezekiel's model, are equal in height and thickness. So if the walls of heaven are the same,- "great and high," then Ezekiel's gates would fit in perfectly.

The gates in heaven will be left open once the new earth is created. Isaiah 60:11. If these gates are proportionate with the city walls, then each leaf or gate half, would be about 2 to 3 meters thick, up to 15 meters wide, made of solid moon stone or pearl stone. They would weigh thousands of tons.
The hinges are made of a blue glittering stone, and the frames are made of a deep red carbuncle. Isaiah 54:12. These stand inside two pillars of gold carved as palm trees, forming an arch over the top. Each pillar is at least 3 meters wide. Or one reed.

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Re: Details of Heaven

#22

Post by Starhunter » Wed Jul 30, 2014 3:24 am

The temple in heaven will not always be there, it is only a temporary thing until about 3020 AD. Rev 21:22.

God intended that the replica on earth built by Moses and later by Solomon would represent heavenly values spiritually and visually. No building has ever matched its beauty in history. At the time of Solomon's reign gold was as common as stone pebbles in Israel. So no expense was spared.

The temple in heaven would be proportionately larger, as in the description by Ezekiel, it would have stood about a mile high and three miles long. Which may also explain how the prophets saw thousands of angels in there, surrounding the throne. the courtyard around it is several miles long.

In vision, Ezekiel saw a fresh stream of "living waters" come out from under the throne of God. It begins ankle deep and he wades down stream, out of the temple courtyard and into a garden. After about a mile and a half the water has increased up to the neck in depth, so he gets out and sees a huge tree with two trunks, one on either bank of the river, which is the tree of life with twelve fruits, one new fruit every month. If you have a favorite fruit of the twelve, you don't have to wait for 12 months, there are always some, but in the minority, so you have to search.

This garden is actually a strip of parkland running all the way down the street center, with the river running down through it as well. The street is about a mile and a half wide, and the garden median on average 700 yards wide.

The street is solid gold and about 50 miles long, from the temple all the way down the valley to a city in the south.
Around the city is a wide green strip and then a metropolis of 12 suburbs, one under each tribal name. That metro covers about 800 square miles. From what I have read it is only a reception city, where people meet and have markets etc, and that each of the 12 countries has separate cities as well to live in. Zechariah 1:17.

When the human race enters heaven, they are given a new name and placed in their respective tribe, based on God's reckoning. I have no idea what it is based on.

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Re: Details of Heaven

#23

Post by Lonewolf » Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:38 pm

Starhunter wrote:The temple in heaven will not always be there, it is only a temporary thing until about 3020 AD. Rev 21:22..

^ ^ Starchild, by your input of ~> "until 3020," I gather from it that the beginning of the so called millennium will begin in 2020 ??

Just asking ??
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Re: Details of Heaven

#24

Post by Philip » Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:35 pm

Looks like we're gonna need more server space - and SOON!

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Re: Details of Heaven

#25

Post by Starhunter » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:12 am

Lonewolf wrote:
Starhunter wrote:The temple in heaven will not always be there, it is only a temporary thing until about 3020 AD. Rev 21:22..

^ ^ Starchild, by your input of ~> "until 3020," I gather from it that the beginning of the so called millennium will begin in 2020 ??

Just asking ??
I have no idea really. But there is a sign before the return of Christ that will tell us it is about a year away, and no longer I hope.

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Re: Details of Heaven

#26

Post by Starhunter » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:32 am

Just a couple of things about the heavenly mountain or city, and it's situation on the earth in the future.
Because it is so great the earth has to be leveled to suit. Whole mountains are pushed aside, to the north and south, and a great plain or valley forms to the east and west. The city is built up all around to reduce the overall incline to a natural degree.
Otherwise it would be like a tower or tall pyramid. Zechariah 14:4.

But the way it lies, it can be said to be a city with a boundary, a country or a mountain. Each type of prediction about it is fulfilled in one structure on the earth.

From outer space the proportions of this city on earth resemble a ring with a jewel. The entire planet is illuminated by it. Verse 6 & 7. The Sun and moon still appear, and add tints and atmospheres, even though there is no dark night or bright day.

The valley to the east and west is at least as wide as the city, 1500 miles, and these valleys open up to two oceans, seas or lakes. Verse 8. This would allow hundreds of atolls, islands, surf and beaches, the scenes of paradise many people relate to.

On the other hand, the mountains to the north and south would provide the perfect world for those who like to live in the heights with extensive views.

In regards to climate,the Bible talks about the lack of extremes like the danger of the sun, but not the lack of temperature differences and seasons.
Genesis 8:22 and Zechariah 14:8 seem to indicate seasons, as well as heat and cold.
Some legends and tribal stories say there are more than four seasons. Heaven could offer any of these all at once, areas like the pinnacle where blossoms and fruit have been seen on the same tree, like 12 seasons a year, and other places where there is only one season at a time. With four sides to heaven and varying heights above the earth, anything is possible.

But going by the natural world and the needs of all the different flora and fauna, heaven most likely has a bit of every tundra, different forests, valleys and micro climates. God loves variety. The only difference is that there's nothing barren or destitute in heaven, every place has an astounding and unique beauty, to satisfy all preferences of life.

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Re: Details of Heaven

#27

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:11 am

It is important to always understand that the prophets were still human and that they filtered what they saw through their human understanding AND passed on to others those things within a context that their DIRECT audience would understand.
I would not make too much of the SPECIFICS of how Heaven may look.

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Re: Details of Heaven

#28

Post by Starhunter » Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:43 am

That's OK, but I love the topic.

The first world paradise had four rivers, which the presently named rivers such as the Euphrates etc were named after.

These current rivers, pardon the pun, do not exactly correspond to the original, but they are roughly in the same area from where the land of Eden once lay.

Note that there were four lands and Moses goes to the trouble of mentioning that the land of Havilah had gold, bdellium and onyx stone. That land was the northern country, with the least sunshine, complemented by gold in the ground and white stones, which would be exposed by the river. It's not hard to imagine the effects of water over a gold and white river bed.

The Jewish sanctuary on earth was aligned with the compass, in an east/west aspect. And the surrounding tribes were divided into the four quarters, each tribe of the twelve represented by specific gem stones and colors. Three kinds of gem stone for each side of heaven? Could it be that you can always tell where you are in heaven by the composition of the ground?

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Re: Details of Heaven

#29

Post by Starhunter » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:32 am

I think it was John Bunyan who wrote that heaven gets bigger as you go to the center of it.

In the concept of a huge mountain on earth, that would be the case, as one ascends, especially on one of the four ridges, the expanse of the earth below increases. When viewed from one of the highest mountains on the pinnacle, nearly the entire circle of the earth appears below, giving the feeling that heaven is another world above the earth.

We get the same effect, when we climb mountains on earth. They don't really look that daunting from the villages below, but that all changes. It even works with small hills.

On another topic about the stars in the Bible, it is interesting that Orion is mentioned 3 times directly and about 4 times indirectly. The other common star groups are the seven sisters or the Pleiades, and Arcturus with his "sons."
If we draw a line in the sky from Arcturus to Orion, the seven sisters are on the way there. I wonder if they are going to the marriage supper of the Lamb? Talking in legends of course.

Orion is associated with the thought of "seeking" God. Amos 5:8. KJV.

I read an article from a Satanist's organization, and they say that Orion has an evil influence, and that there are people on earth who know what lies in the constellation, which should be avoided. And they name some ways to identify them.

Orion is within our own galaxy, about 1600 light years from earth, we reside in the same arm of stars, about 2/3 out from the galaxy center. So Orion is practically next door by comparison. I tell more about Orion later.
Last edited by Starhunter on Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Details of Heaven

#30

Post by Lonewolf » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:23 am

Starhunter wrote:..In the concept of a huge mountain on earth, that would be the case, as one ascends, especially on one of the four ridges, the expanse of the earth below increases. When viewed from one of the highest mountains on the pinnacle, nearly the entire circle of the earth appears below, giving the feeling that heaven is another world above the earth.

We get the same effect, when we climb mountains on earth. They don't really look that daunting from the villages below, but that all changes. It even works with small hills..
Starchild., i feel what you're saying with these your words written above ^ ^ ., I climbed the pyramid of the moon in Teotihuacan once upon a time., it got a little bit hefty getting up there, even at my young age., but when i got up there., it felt like I was sitting atop of the world., i just sat there and looked down below me and all around me ~> it had a magical feeling to it

the world below ~> felt like it was diff than the world above, from where i was sitting and looking down upon

From up there, It felt Beautiful .,

I wonder if when God done it all, if He looked down and said, in a manner of saying ~> that it was good and beautiful
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