Which one is right

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Which one is right

#1

Post by UsagiTsukino » Sat May 03, 2014 1:28 pm


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Re: Which one is right

#2

Post by B. W. » Sun May 04, 2014 7:20 am

The answer is: Jesus

John 10:27-30 NASB, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

Is one of his flock or not?

Eph 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God..." NASB

Rom 11:29, "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." NASB

Notice that Rom 11:29 sets forth t biblical principle found also in these verses: Numbers 23:19; Hosea 13:14; Malachi 3:6, therefore: In whom is your faith anchored too - Jesus Christ or those that say you can lose him? Whom do you listen too?

Eph 1:13, 14 NASB, " In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory."
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Re: Which one is right

#3

Post by Jac3510 » Sun May 04, 2014 6:08 pm

All three are wrong, because all three equate eternal security with the final perseverance of the saints.

The correct position is eternal security. NOTHING can cause us to either lose our salvation or prove that we were never saved to begin with. What all three of these articles have in common is this, and it is where they are wrong: all hold that consistent sin/unbelief damns a person to hell, either by arguing that the person was never really saved or by arguing that their sin separated them from their salvation.

Jesus said whoever believes has EVERLASTING life (John 3:16, etc.). If we could die spiritually again once we have been saved then the life that we had at that moment would not have been everlasting. It would have been five month of five year of fifty year life, or whatever the term was from when we were saved to the moment we "died" again. Notice that Jesus does not promise that whoever believes WILL HAVE everlasting life at some point in the future; rather, He says they have it right NOW (John 6:47, etc.).

Christians need to take the Gospel seriously. Our salvation has NOTHING to do with our works, either good or bad. Our good works don't make us one bit more fit for heaven, and our evil works don't edge us one bit closer to hell. I'll say it again and again and again and again: SALVATION IS NOT BY WORKS. When we get that through our thick heads, we'll have made a lot of progress in our spiritual lives.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Which one is right

#4

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Sun May 04, 2014 7:17 pm

Jac3510 wrote:All three are wrong, because all three equate eternal security with the final perseverance of the saints.

The correct position is eternal security. NOTHING can cause us to either lose our salvation or prove that we were never saved to begin with. What all three of these articles have in common is this, and it is where they are wrong: all hold that consistent sin/unbelief damns a person to hell, either by arguing that the person was never really saved or by arguing that their sin separated them from their salvation.

Jesus said whoever believes has EVERLASTING life (John 3:16, etc.). If we could die spiritually again once we have been saved then the life that we had at that moment would not have been everlasting. It would have been five month of five year of fifty year life, or whatever the term was from when we were saved to the moment we "died" again. Notice that Jesus does not promise that whoever believes WILL HAVE everlasting life at some point in the future; rather, He says they have it right NOW (John 6:47, etc.).

Christians need to take the Gospel seriously. Our salvation has NOTHING to do with our works, either good or bad. Our good works don't make us one bit more fit for heaven, and our evil works don't edge us one bit closer to hell. I'll say it again and again and again and again: SALVATION IS NOT BY WORKS. When we get that through our thick heads, we'll have made a lot of progress in our spiritual lives.
Amen and amen. :amen: :amen: :amen: :amen: :amen:
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Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Which one is right

#5

Post by Gman » Sun May 04, 2014 9:43 pm

:roll:

Right.. Salvation is not by works but we still follow G-d's commandments... Why? Because we are betrothed to G-d. And if we are betrothed to Him we CANNOT act like prostitutes anymore.
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Re: Which one is right

#6

Post by Philip » Sun May 04, 2014 10:03 pm

Jac, B.W., so glad you guys weighed in on this - it's absolutely amazing how often the belief that one can lose their salvation comes up. And it both scares, worries and takes away the confidence of so many believers. And it plays right into the devil's hands - as he wants us to doubt our salvation and eternal security. He wants us to pay more attention to our feelings than we do to what God's word tells us about this. And so often, our feelings are all over the map. So, one not feeling as spiritual one week, may worry what that might mean. Alas, WHOSE salvation was it to begin with - certainly not ours - we're, as previously poor beggars, merely the beneficiaries of a magnificent and eternal inheritance, given by grace, through faith!

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Re: Which one is right

#7

Post by neo-x » Mon May 05, 2014 3:37 am

Gman wrote::roll:

Right.. Salvation is not by works but we still follow G-d's commandments... Why? Because we are betrothed to G-d. And if we are betrothed to Him we CANNOT act like prostitutes anymore.
I often end up doing the wrong thing, the bad thing, the sin...not always what I like to do but end up doing the same. Reminds me constantly of God's grace, and why we need it so bad. I tried fulfilling the commandments and have failed most of the time, in fact to be honest I have failed many many times. I used to carry that burden on me, praying for forgiveness at every second of free time I got, praying for forgiveness on the bus, at lunch break, in between work, study, my daily life was a great confession. If I had a bad thought, I'd pray at the spot for forgiveness, but that did nothing to ease my conscience, the more I err'd the more I prayed and the more I prayed the more guilt and sense of disappointment got into me. The feeling that I was the worst moron God had in his precious hand and you know what it also felt like?

It felt like "I DON'T DESERVE THIS" because I screw up each time. And God was just on the edge as well, any day now I'd get booted off from his good books, because I just wasn't enough to make the righteous few who didn't behave as sinfully as I did.

My point we do act like sinful whores all the time, may be you don't. But I simply have failed over and over in keeping all of those commandments and I nearly destroyed my faith because of the sense of shame and guilt that failure produced.

Now I trust God, because I know he knows that I am very weak and I need his grace more than he needs me to keep those commandments. Life with sin is a wreck, but life without grace is eternal pain and burden.

I would love to keep his commandments but I don't do a good job of doing so.
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Re: Which one is right

#8

Post by RickD » Mon May 05, 2014 5:29 am

Gman wrote::roll:

Right.. Salvation is not by works but we still follow G-d's commandments... Why? Because we are betrothed to G-d. And if we are betrothed to Him we CANNOT act like prostitutes anymore.
I wish I could say I CANNOT. I always end up doing what I don't want to do. Thankfully, our God won't abandon us when we fail. Salvation is by His Grace. And we are secure in HIM. We are not secure in our ability to stop sinning. We are not secure in our ability to follow God's laws. And we are not secure in our own perseverance.
1 Corinthians 1:9
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Re: Which one is right

#9

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon May 05, 2014 8:19 am

Salvation has nothing to do with what WE DO but everything to do with what CHRIST DID.
The moment we think " I have to do this, or I will do this" we have made it about US and not about Christ.

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Re: Which one is right

#10

Post by B. W. » Mon May 05, 2014 8:48 am

Philip wrote:Jac, B.W., so glad you guys weighed in on this - it's absolutely amazing how often the belief that one can lose their salvation comes up. And it both scares, worries and takes away the confidence of so many believers. And it plays right into the devil's hands - as he wants us to doubt our salvation and eternal security. He wants us to pay more attention to our feelings than we do to what God's word tells us about this. And so often, our feelings are all over the map. So, one not feeling as spiritual one week, may worry what that might mean. Alas, WHOSE salvation was it to begin with - certainly not ours - we're, as previously poor beggars, merely the beneficiaries of a magnificent and eternal inheritance, given by grace, through faith!
What gets me are these three scriptures:

Eph 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God..." NASB

Rom 11:29, "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." NASB

Eph 1:13, 14, " In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory." NASB


It is about God's eternal security and not about once saved always saved. Once saved, always saved (OSAS) is a doctrine leading to an abuse of grace and fairy tale believism. It is OSAS is what I have found that most people disagree with. Eternal Security on the other hand changes a person by God's grace and gives a Christian rest and confidence in the Lord that he will not let them go. When sin enters the picture, they know it will be exposed and God's grace will deal with it, justly and soon the sin loses its hold upon the Christian. It provides endurance during times of chastisement from the Lord and build ones faith in God in ways, well, unexplainable.

With eternal security, the constant struggle between the works of the flesh and walking in the Spirit becomes easier for the walk in the Spirit to win out more. Eternal security also dispels fears and makes the principles found in 1 John 2:6 and Isaiah 61:1-4 come alive in one's life. As for keeping the commandments, a Christians learns to discern the voice of the Lord from the wide array of ways and means that He speaks, properly test these, and obey what He says. If you stumble, eternal security from God picks you up again, ask you what you learned, and lets you proceed to the next lesson. In fact, it is easy - trust Him who said, no one is able to snatch you out of His hands, including yourself.

The lose you faith crowd do have valid points, however, taking certain scriptures interpreted out of a pretext does not nullify what Jesus said in John 10:27-30 and the verses I cited above as well as a few more not mentioned. Verses from Hebrews 6:4-10, Hebrews 10:3, 26-29, Revelation chapters two and three, Matthew 25:1-13, and Matthew 7:22 seem to suggest that one can lose salvation but a further study reveals something else entirely.

The chapter six and ten verses referring to falling away from book of Hebrews basically are telling folks not to resort to the animal sacrifices of the OT due to peer pressure and persecution. Those that do, well, were never Christians in the first place. Being a member, or born into a church, does not make one a christian anymore than living in a garage makes a person a car. The foolish bridesmaids in Jesus parable may have hung around long enough to think themselves something they were not but their fairy tale believism cannot sustain them in the darkest hours. Likewise, how could they be true Christians as such are actually sealed by the Holy Spirit and God reneges on no gift, including salvation? Also the folks mentioned in the Revelation chapters on the 7 Churches - were they really saved? Some might be but due to dullness and worldliness, they are left behind to endure a time of great woe. Only one group out of the seven is promised to escape - not all. Others mentioned may never have been saved.

The crowd spoken of in Matt 7:22 spoke with pride that declares - look at what WE have done - it was all about them and their ministries and nothing to do with Christ. If they known Christ, really known him, them they would never boast like that because for a true servant of God it is about him working in them and none of themselves. For such, they would would be saying, "we are unprofitable servants - just doing our job because we love the Lord." People like that would never say, WE have done this or that great task. Instead they would probably say, "Look Lord what you have done, my that was a great sermon you preached Lord, thank you for doing these things through a wretch like me... amen"

Paul writes for us in Philippians 2:12 to work out - exercise - our own salvation not to stay saved but rather as a testimony to those around that you reflect whom you follow, Christ Jesus - live out your faith, not hide it under a basket. Someone who knows they are eternally secure in Christ will engage in such endeavor living the 1 John 1:9 life, and doing good service for the Lord to glorify him quite naturally and easily. Simply stated, eternal security has you rely on the Lord and rest in what he has done and will do for you. What Jesus said in Matthew 11:28,29,30 is true. The losing your faith doctrine provides no such rest as it is not possible. It weakens faith and has one rely upon self and not God.

The once saved always saved doctrine (OSAS) is based upon easy fairy tale believism that has a tendency to make lazy bridesmaids and false believers who abuse grace and mix worldly ideas into their Christianity such things as Chrislam, diversity at the exclusion of identity, and political correctness to rule the church and not the word of God. It makes sanctification an separate option from salvation not part of the same coin. It uses the shotgun effect - have as many people pray a simple prayer in hopes a few get on board, then leave them all to just flounder about while priding oneself on the number of conversions.

God knows who are his and he will never let them go and in doing so, his hold will change a persons life in due time and see each through the roller coaster ride of faith. It is always good to examine oneself to see if they are in the faith. You know you are his by how often you spend time in God's woodshed because his chastisement lets you know for certain you are his... Now if one could lose salvation then why would God even bother to take you to the woodshed?

Why I believe in eternal security is because it is firmly fixed in the bible and provides balance to the passages that folks often cite as a case for losing one's salvation. I am even thankful for those that teach one can lose salvation, why, because it at least has one going to God's woodshed. Amen...
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Re: Which one is right

#11

Post by Gman » Mon May 05, 2014 12:00 pm

neo-x wrote:
I often end up doing the wrong thing, the bad thing, the sin...not always what I like to do but end up doing the same. Reminds me constantly of God's grace, and why we need it so bad. I tried fulfilling the commandments and have failed most of the time, in fact to be honest I have failed many many times. I used to carry that burden on me, praying for forgiveness at every second of free time I got, praying for forgiveness on the bus, at lunch break, in between work, study, my daily life was a great confession. If I had a bad thought, I'd pray at the spot for forgiveness, but that did nothing to ease my conscience, the more I err'd the more I prayed and the more I prayed the more guilt and sense of disappointment got into me. The feeling that I was the worst moron God had in his precious hand and you know what it also felt like?

It felt like "I DON'T DESERVE THIS" because I screw up each time. And God was just on the edge as well, any day now I'd get booted off from his good books, because I just wasn't enough to make the righteous few who didn't behave as sinfully as I did.

My point we do act like sinful whores all the time, may be you don't. But I simply have failed over and over in keeping all of those commandments and I nearly destroyed my faith because of the sense of shame and guilt that failure produced.

Now I trust God, because I know he knows that I am very weak and I need his grace more than he needs me to keep those commandments. Life with sin is a wreck, but life without grace is eternal pain and burden.

I would love to keep his commandments but I don't do a good job of doing so.
Seriously? So let me ask you a question.. Let's say you get married to a beautiful wife. But you see she has this habit.. You see she likes to sleep with other men.. So you are telling me that this doesn't matter for the relationship to flourish?

And about the commandments, of course we can't follow them completely but we follow them the best we can and if we make a mistake we confess them and move on. Also according to the Bible G-d's commandments are not burdensome. Are you saying that they are?

1 John 5:2-4 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Which one is right

#12

Post by Gman » Mon May 05, 2014 12:04 pm

RickD wrote:
Gman wrote::roll:

Right.. Salvation is not by works but we still follow G-d's commandments... Why? Because we are betrothed to G-d. And if we are betrothed to Him we CANNOT act like prostitutes anymore.
I wish I could say I CANNOT. I always end up doing what I don't want to do. Thankfully, our God won't abandon us when we fail. Salvation is by His Grace. And we are secure in HIM. We are not secure in our ability to stop sinning. We are not secure in our ability to follow God's laws. And we are not secure in our own perseverance.
I'll but it this way then.. If you are betrothed to Him, sure, you can act anyway you want. But that doesn't sound like a marriage to me unless you are married to vapor.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Which one is right

#13

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon May 05, 2014 12:06 pm

Its not IF we follow the commandments, it is WHY we follow them.
Nothing we do assures us of salvation, especially when we do it with the reason to be saved ( compromised intent).
Our salvation has already been "paid for" by Christ on the cross.
We follow His commandments because we love and honour His sacrifice for us.
We are able to follow those commandments BECAUSE of our faith in Christ and His love and His sacrifice.

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Re: Which one is right

#14

Post by Gman » Mon May 05, 2014 12:13 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:Its not IF we follow the commandments, it is WHY we follow them.
Nothing we do assures us of salvation, especially when we do it with the reason to be saved ( compromised intent).
Our salvation has already been "paid for" by Christ on the cross.
We follow His commandments because we love and honour His sacrifice for us.
We are able to follow those commandments BECAUSE of our faith in Christ and His love and His sacrifice.
Correct... :clap: Finally someone get's it. Except for the part about following His commandments.. We will still most likely sin in our lives, but we do our best to uphold them and ask forgiveness when we do sin. We follow His commandments BECAUSE we are saved, not to get saved..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Which one is right

#15

Post by RickD » Mon May 05, 2014 12:27 pm

Why am I getting a feeling of Déjà vu? Like I've been on this ride before... y:-?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."



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