"Works"

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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Re: "Works"

#76

Post by RickD » Thu May 24, 2012 11:44 am

Canuckster1127 wrote:A great deal of this has to do with how one views the character and nature of God.

If God is a distant, calculating deity who sits from afar and takes on the role of a judge in a courtroom looking for technicalities and issues based upon which He then chooses to cast people away from Him then that is one things. If God is loving and sincerely desires us, as Jesus illustrates in the parable of the prodigal son, then the assurance is based upon His love for us and the confidence that that Love will see us through to the end.

It wasn't my effort that made me acceptable to God in the first place. Neither is it my effort that sustains me with Him. The formula in place for all of this is already a completed and finished deal in God's eyes. All I have to be is willing to delve into the depths of the relationship that this affords me and learn as a child to love and obey my heavenly Father based on that established relationship and nothing else.
It seems a lot of these issues narrow down to one's views of the nature and character of God. I just don't like to pidgeon hole myself into any certain Theology, because I believe God is bigger than that, and because as I grow, my beliefs about certain things change, as well. if I have no theology I'm bound to, then I don't have to go find a new theology every time I adjust something I believe. Or every time God shows me something I hadn't seen before. At least that's how I see it.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: "Works"

#77

Post by RickD » Thu May 24, 2012 11:49 am

Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:
Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:But, genuine, saving faith is either genuine or it isn't. And if one has had genuine saving faith, then the Bible assures that He will be saved to the end.
The person who thought he had genuine faith (to later discover he didn't) also thought he had assurance (to later discover he didn't). This person is either still saved (under Free Grace theology and absolute assurance) or he proved he was never a true believer (under everything-else theology and moral assurance). There are genuinely only two positions here, I don't see a third.
Actually, jlay wrote that. I just put it in blue, to say I agreed.

A third position is mine. With the 2 possibilities.
Sorry Rick, I don't see the third option since, when you allow for the possibility that a person may be deluded into thinking they have genuine faith, then by default you've already crossed under the moral assurance threshold.
Byblos, I still believe that anyone who has put his faith in Christ, is eternally secure. That's what I believe. If someone wants to put that in some "theology box", then go for it. I just don't, myself. For example, If Joe Doe believes on Christ, then sometime in the future falls away, he is still eternally secure. Even if he has no feeling of assurance, or even if he doesn't feel the indwelling Holy Spirit. But, my point is, that I myself, have no idea if Joe ever really believed in Christ. That's between Joe, and God.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: "Works"

#78

Post by RickD » Thu May 24, 2012 1:59 pm

Getting back to the topic of this thread, "works", I have something else to say. I reread a thread a while back, and something that Felgar(I believe) said, hit home with me. With help from what he said, I came up with this: One is saved by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. Now, someone who believes that his salvation is by faith alone, and not by works, is saved, as long as his faith is in the Jesus Christ of the bible. So, for example, a Catholic, like Byblos, who believes he's saved by faith alone, and not works, is saved, if he believes in the Jesus Christ of the bible. Even if I, or anyone else thinks that his faith is works based. Because, for him, it's based on faith, not works. Let me be clear though. Just because Mormons say they believe in Jesus Christ, or even say they are saved through "faith alone", it's clear to me, that their Jesus is a different Jesus, than the one in the bible.

So, if that is a change from where I stood before, so be it.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: "Works"

#79

Post by Byblos » Thu May 24, 2012 2:04 pm

RickD wrote:Getting back to the topic of this thread, "works", I have something else to say. I reread a thread a while back, and something that Felgar(I believe) said, hit home with me. With help from what he said, I came up with this: One is saved by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. Now, someone who believes that his salvation is by faith alone, and not by works, is saved, as long as his faith is in the Jesus Christ of the bible. So, for example, a Catholic, like Byblos, who believes he's saved by faith alone, and not works, is saved, if he believes in the Jesus Christ of the bible. Even if I, or anyone else thinks that his faith is works based. Because, for him, it's based on faith, not works. Let me be clear though. Just because Mormons say they believe in Jesus Christ, or even say they are saved through "faith alone", it's clear to me, that their Jesus is a different Jesus, than the one in the bible.

So, if that is a change from where I stood before, so be it.
Then clearly Mormans have a moral, not an absolute assurance (okay, okay, I'll quit it :mrgreen: ).
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: "Works"

#80

Post by B. W. » Thu May 24, 2012 6:54 pm

Been reading this - where do I begin?

Hmmm, rest... chill out but do not be so cold that you are no earthly good...

How's that for starters...
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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Re: "Works"

#81

Post by RickD » Thu May 24, 2012 7:42 pm

B. W. wrote:Been reading this - where do I begin?

Hmmm, rest... chill out but do not be so cold that you are no earthly good...

How's that for starters...
-
-
-
Jump right in, B.W. The water's warm. But, I have to warn you that it's warm, because Byblos peed in the pool. :mrgreen:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: "Works"

#82

Post by RickD » Thu May 24, 2012 7:46 pm

Byblos wrote:
Then clearly Mormans have a moral, not an absolute assurance (okay, okay, I'll quit it ).
What about Mermans? What kind of assurance do they have?
Image
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: "Works"

#83

Post by neo-x » Thu May 24, 2012 11:02 pm

What about Mermans? What kind of assurance do they have?
Hydraulic Assurance :lol:
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: "Works"

#84

Post by Byblos » Fri May 25, 2012 2:55 am

RickD wrote:
B. W. wrote:Been reading this - where do I begin?

Hmmm, rest... chill out but do not be so cold that you are no earthly good...

How's that for starters...
-
-
-
Jump right in, B.W. The water's warm. But, I have to warn you that it's warm, because Byblos peed in the pool. :mrgreen:
Hey, hey, hey ... don't spread the word. 8)
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: "Works"

#85

Post by neo-x » Fri May 25, 2012 3:11 am

Jump right in, B.W. The water's warm. But, I have to warn you that it's warm, because Byblos peed in the pool.


Hey, hey, hey ... don't spread the word.
That happened to one of my friends. He was in the pool, posing his not-so-muscular body, trying to get attention from a couple of girls who were giving him smiles. What he didn't know, was that 6 feet to his back, his friend was peeing in the pool. :pound: and the girls apparently were laughing their heads off.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: "Works"

#86

Post by Canuckster1127 » Fri May 25, 2012 8:02 pm

It's one thing to pee in the pool. It's another to do it from the diving board.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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Re: "Works"

#87

Post by RickD » Fri May 25, 2012 8:06 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:It's one thing to pee in the pool. It's another to do it from the diving board.
click me
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: "Works"

#88

Post by mandelduke » Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:16 pm

I think too many people put their faith on The Pauline Doctrine alone, and not on the whole word of God. Don’t get me wrong it was
The Pauline Doctrine that brought me too the Lord, but it is my Lord that compels me to do his will. Here is a payer of Paul’s, and it is a good one.
Ephesians 1:17:18
17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


1 John 2:3
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.


Revelation 22:14
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Isaiah 29:13
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:


Matthew 7:19

19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

James 2:14:25
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.19 You believe that there is one God.(AB) Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
Philippians 1:19:26
19 for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance. 20 I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26 so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me.

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Re: "Works"

#89

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:46 am

Good works are always a SIGN of Faith, a SIGN of love BUT they do NOT bring faith or love.
Works COME from the Grace of God through Christ BUT how do we KNOW if we are doing good from Grace?
Simple really: WHY are you doing those good works? what are your intentions?

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Re: "Works"

#90

Post by mandelduke » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:02 pm

Works can be a double edge sword. I mean anything you do should be for the glory of God, and if the good things you do feel like work God is not in it. Galatians 5 is a good chapter on the fruit of the spirit. Luke 10:25-37 The Parable of the Good Samaritan. I say if you Love your neighbor as yourself, and have compassion on people in need, you’re in good shape.

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