Jews

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Jews

#1

Post by Anonymous » Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:47 pm

I was recently arguing with a Jewish person about how Jesus is the messiah and this is what he said:

"Now, as for Jesus... I do not know enough about Christianity to seperate the teachings of Jesus from the teachings of Paul or Jhon or Luke. However, the BIG glaring reason why it is impossible for a Jew to follow a prophet such as Jesus, is that he teaches that the Laws in the Torah nolonger apply. As I said, the Torah is Eternal, it can not be added to and it can not be subtracted from. For Jesus to say, Love your neighbor but don't worry about keeping Kosher, is, according to the very word of the five books of moses a CLEAR sign that such a prophet is a false prophet."

"Also, there is a very basic Jewish principle that I have repeated a few times that nobody can fuffill your obligations save another person with the same obligations. Since Jesus did not commit all sins, nor did he force all Jews to break all the laws, Jesus can not suffer on behalf of the people to anull any wrong doings the people or individuals have done. This applies to being Sacrificed on the cross, as much as it applies to a 13 year old boy saying the blessing over food for me."


can someone shed some light on this matter?

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#2

Post by Mastermind » Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:03 pm

I'm getting sick of people saying that if God doesn't change, then neither do His laws. God could have told the jews to wear asbestos hats to protect them from deadly reaction from a supernova, then tell them the hats were no longer needed 2000 years later. Does that mean God can't make up His mind? Hell no. I can't believe people keep using these logical fallacies to support their ignorance. As for the second part, if we assume Jesus is God, then it doesn't matter. It's His right to forgive whoever He wants.

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#3

Post by Anonymous » Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:07 pm

I've had enough of it as well...

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#4

Post by Deborah » Tue Feb 15, 2005 10:41 pm

Firstly Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the laws of the prophets.
Mat 5:17 Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. Therefore whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. He came to fulfill Prophecy

the prophecy of place of birth micah 5:2 fulfillment Mat 2:1-6

lineage Jereiah 23:5 fulfillment acts 13:22-23

Prophet priest king Deut 18:17-19 psalm 110:4-4
fulfillment acts 3:20-23 hebrews 7:17 8:1

fore runner john the baptist Isiaah 40:3-4 fulfillment Luke 3:2-5

triumphal entry Zechariah 9:9 fulfillment mat 21:1-9

Death by Crucifixion Psalm 22:16-18 34:20 fulfillment john 19:18-37

Died for others guilt Isaiah 53:4-12 fulfillment 1Peter 2:21-25

Buried in rich mans tomb Isaiah 53:9 fulfillment mat 27:57-60

Resurrection Psalm 16:10 fulfillment acts 2:24-32

As for kosher

Act 10:14 - But Peter said, not so, Lord,.... God forbid I should do this, so contrary to the law of God, and to my own practice, throughout the whole course of my life:

for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean; in a ceremonial sense, which was in common use with Gentiles, but unclean by the law of Moses: this shows that Peter as yet closely adhered to the ceremonial law, nor did he know that it was abolished by Christ; and notwithstanding the commission given to him and the rest of the apostles to preach the Gospel to every creature, and the extraordinary gifts of speaking with divers tongues for that purpose, bestowed on them at the day of Pentecost; yet he and they remained greatly strangers to the calling of the Gentiles, and the admitting of them to a civil and religious conversation with them; the knowledge of every truth was not at once communicated to them, but gradually, as it pressed the Lord to enlighten their minds.

Act 10:15 - And the voice spake unto him again the second time,.... The following words,

what God hath cleansed; that is, hath pronounced clean and lawful to be used, as he now had all sorts of food, Mat 15:11 Not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man; but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.

that call not thou common; or pronounce it to be unholy or unclean, and unlawful to be used: and the same holds good of men, as well as things; for as hereby the Lord instructed Peter, that there was nothing of itself common, or unclean, and unfit for use; so that no man, not any Gentile, Barbarian, Scythian, or be he who he would, was common or unclean, and his company to be avoided as such. Distinctions both of men and meats were now to be laid aside; and the Jews themselves own, that what is now unclean, will be clean in the time to come, or the times of the Messiah; they say (f),

"every beast which is unclean in this world,

the holy blessed God מטהר אותה,

cleanses it, in the time to come, (the times of the Messiah,) as they were at first clean to the sons of Noah Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herb. wherefore, as the herb was clean to all, and as the beasts were clean to the sons of Noah; so also in the time to come he will loose what he has bound, or forbidden.''

And particularly they observe, that a swine is call הזיר from הזר, "to return", because the Lord will return it unto Israel. (g).

john gill

jesus was not just another person, he was God come to earth as a man, jesus said I am the begining and the end, that says God, God chose to suffer for the sins of his children.
i still say that the jews and the muslims restrict Gods power, we are mere humans, and we can not possably restrict God.

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#5

Post by Anonymous » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:46 pm

Ok upon presenting him with scriptural evidence he had this to say:

King David wrote in Psalms "And the whole world is Filled with him"
There is no question that G-d is outside of our dimensions. However, He is also inside our dimentions.

This is the very pardox that Kabbalah deals with. There is a reason tradition suggests you do not bother trying to learn it until you are 40. G-d is all inclusive. This goes back to the argument about opposites. What that athiest fails to point out in his argument, is that G-d can be the known world, but then G-d is also what is outside the known world. Those theoritical stories of what if we are all just inside someone's head isn't as far off and crazy as some people think.

As I said again, anything that you can show that will show god as 3, I will show you that it shows god as 26. There are plenty of lines in scripture that point to G-d being infinite, and singular.

Based on the website Jews for Judaism. There are generally three reasons why you are wrong. 1) that verse does not exist in the Jewish version of the book. (christians are notorious for having many versions of the same book) 2) The verse is mistranslated. 3) the verse is out of context, and if you read the before and after versus you would find it is in refrence to something very specific. Such as the "virgin" which is actually translated as "young woman" and is in refrence to the Torah that the Jewish people marry.


As for the polythiesm aspect, I'm not an expert in polythiesm. However the polythiestic religions I do know about often have a head god who later has children who become other gods. The notion that I can throw all my gold into the fire, have it come out and be a golden calf all on its own, and to say that that is a represnetive of god is inherintly wrong.

Besides, if Jesus is god your breaking the second commandment.

Yachid, is the personal version of Achad. I'm not a grammer buff, but its common in many languages. Instead of saying MY ONE goat. I would say Achidi or ONEMY goat. Yachid is the same as saying Achad Shelach or YOUR ONE.

As you stated eaerlier about the word YOM, one Word can have various meanings. Achad is normally only used to mean the Numerical number 1.

Now as for the translation of the word US. One of the Hebrew words for G-ds name is POWERS or ELOHIM. Just like the word SHEKINAH which is the female grammatical form, ELOHIM is the plural grammatical form. Its is the name of G-d that represents his JUSTICE attributes. That is why rulers of countries are also called ELOHIM. It may be noted however, that the other verbs in those verses are written in Singular gramtical from. Which either means the writer of the bible didn't know Hebrew grammer or ELOHIM is actually refering to a single Object or subject (like I said I don't know grammer) in the sentence.

They just happen to be wrong from a Jewish perspective. The torah was written in Hebrew. It was not translated untill the greeks forced 70 rabbis to translate the Torah. That date, is a national fast day.(The 11th of AV) The Talmud writes that a great miracled happend that day, and the 70 rabbis all made the same translation "mistakes" One of the most famous "mistakes" is the first verse , "Let us make man in our image" was translated to "I will make man in my image" I'm sure your pastors and priests know of that story by now, and so I'm sure they assumed the reason it was mistranslated was to "hide the trinity." The reason it was mistranslated is because Greece was a Polythiestic culture, and they did not want the greeks thinking Judaism was Polythiestic as well, since the whole rebellion was over putting up statues of Zues in the Temple.

Now as to the proper meaning of that verse. As usual there are three opinions. (probabbly more, but I only know of three of them, since I only read three authors on that line.) The one I find most interesting is that G-d was speaking to the angles of Mercy, Justice, and Truth. Mercy said man should be created as we can be kind to people. Justice said man should be created for who else would be able to listen and choose to do the word of G-d. Truth said man should not be created as we are liars and subjective and can never really see the Truth. For This, G-d "threw Truth to the ground" and turned to Mercy and Justice and said "Now, let us make Man in our image."

Edit: On the website you mentioned it translates the shema as "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" The Normal translation is "Hear O Israel, The Lord is our G-d, the Lord is One."
As for that REALLY BAD Translation of Isiah, I refer you to This Link:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/4229/isaih.html

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Ok can someone who knows the Torah, the history around it and Hebrew please answer this, maybe Kurieuo or Jac?

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#6

Post by Deborah » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:30 pm

God help me :cry: I have no desire to make a Jew understand truth. It is unchristian and unacceptable. They were responsable for the murder of our lord god in human form, (Jesus) From what I read in the bible I felt that, and after the movie passion of Christ all it did was make me mad :oops:
First it was the way they treat Palistine, yes i know both sides are as bad as each other! Then I read the bible, inforcing me being mad at them, then the movie made it worse. The finding on the net that 11 million peoples were murdered in the holicost, 5 million were not jews, 3 million of those where Christian. 6 million Polish people were murdered 3 million jews and 3 million Christians, yet all the world knows is about the 6 million jews. Why? because they jump up and down and shout the loudest :cry: i can't feel bad for 6 million Jews because I see it as 11 million of my fellow man and it makes me angry.
I am well aware it is not christian to be so mad at any race of people, so I am praying for the understanding to overcome this anger, which I know is not of God. I never thought of myself as a racist before, but i guess I am :? Am I the only person of the Christian faith to feel this way?

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#7

Post by Tash » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:45 pm

i feel sorry for the people that feel that way about jews, it can cloud your judgement

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#8

Post by Anonymous » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:46 pm

No actually Ive been in your shoes for sometime. Although I was angry with Jewish people after reading the New Testament, its evident that Jesus's had to die. However, what still gets me about Jews is how they still view themselves as chosen people of God and that all their principles and traditions come from God. Yeah WW2 has been made into something of Hitler going after the Jews when in fact he went after pretty much anyone who was religious. Jews just frustrate me even more in the sense that some view Jesus as a fake and 99 percent of them won't view Jesus as anything more then a possible prophet.

For this guys argument I can easily refute the fact that God is not infinite, if he were then nothing but God would exist or God would just be the world. Basically i gave him a quote by an atheist on the website to ponder over and that's the reply I got from him. Its really frustrating, they think the old covenant was eternal!

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#9

Post by Deborah » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:16 pm

I know it was Gods intention that Jesus (himself? will be honest still having trouble with that thought) would die for our sins. But it showed the Jewish in a cold light. Basically they turned their back on God. If Jews had not become evil God wouldn't have made the flood, and would not have distroyed Sodam. I don't know why I think they were Jews? they were right?
The muslims also believe that Jesus was a prophet.
As Christians do we not believe we live to honour God through Jesus, and anyone who does not honour god is not Christian.
how do we honour god?
there are no two laws greater than these, Mark 12:30-31 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength." This is the first commandment. And the second is like this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.
is this the law that is spoken about when in Romans 2:14-16 For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves: who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another, in a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. I believe it is. This scripture tells us that is will be possable for people of other religions to get into heaven, because by nature they follow the two most important commandments of god. the other commandments are steps to achieve these two most important commandments, because when we get here we will have forfilled these steps. Therefore in the eyes of god they may well be Christians.

When I think about it, my kids make me mad to but I still love them no matter what. Just because the jewish nation makes me mad does not mean I hate them.

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Jou a Jew?

#10

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:06 pm

God help me I have no desire to make a Jew understand truth. It is unchristian and unacceptable. They were responsable for the murder of our lord god in human form, (Jesus) From what I read in the bible I felt that, and after the movie passion of Christ all it did was make me mad
Deborah, think of it this way. 1) A mob of Jews, Judas, and the Jewish mafia (the high priests and such) were the ones who wanted Jesus dead, but it was actually the Romans who killed Him (and the mob at the same time demonstrates the problems of a democracy). 2) The reason Jesus was crucified was because of ALL of our sins. Jesus came so we could all have life, and He had to conquer death and become our scapegoat (or scapelamb, since the goat is used as a symbol of Satan). Also, what better expression of love, than to go into the world and go and try to save those who would kill Him?
This scripture tells us that is will be possable for people of other religions to get into heaven, because by nature they follow the two most important commandments of god. the other commandments are steps to achieve these two most important commandments, because when we get here we will have forfilled these steps. Therefore in the eyes of god they may well be Christians.
Christianity means a follower of Christ. You can follow Jesus' greatest commandments, but if you aren't a follower of Christ...how else can you be forgiven, except through Him? You can't work your way to heaven (Also, I've heard Christianity isn't a religion, it's a relationship. You aren't supposed to follow a bunch of rules and regulations. Once you start to love God, that love will compel you not to do all the things He tells you not to...in the same way, if you love your girlfriend, you will stop smoking, not because she tells you, but because you love her). If I'm wrong in some way on the last part, correct me....my reasoning sounds good, but I'm using my reason to judge my reason....

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#11

Post by Deborah » Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:23 pm

Christianity is the following of Jesus's teachings.
Jesus said
Mark 12:30-31 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength." This is the first commandment. And the second is like this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these. He said it, these two are the most important things he had to teach us. These are possably the two most important of Gods laws, if that is so then anyone who follows them with it in their hearts does honour to god.
those who do not know of the law but still honour it in their hearts, it is clear God has made preperation for them in his word.

Romans 2:14-16 For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves: who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another, in a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

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YEAH!

#12

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:08 pm

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.


No Jesus, no salvation, know Jesus, know salvation. :lol:

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#13

Post by Deborah » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:19 pm

then why bother saying that there will be a different judgement, that those who don't have the law will be judged by what is in their heart.

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#14

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:39 pm

I looked up this in a commentary....made my head spin, but I'm almost sure I get it http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries ... hapter=002

There are two laws, the LAW (10 Commandments, for example, which one must be taught, and which only the Jews had) and the moral law (that which everyone has in them). Those without the LAW have no excuse for doing what is wrong because they have the law and their conscience. That's as much as I get, you can read into it and glean more information


---End of Bible verse use---
There is a different judgment between Christians and non-Christians because we are forgiven, and Jesus makes us righteous. Non-Christians, not having Jesus, only have their works to speak for them.

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#15

Post by Deborah » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:45 pm

Now that frightens me that makes sence lol.
So we know by ourselves we are not capable of getting to heaven. But we accepted jesus as our saviour, and he died so that we would be able to have a eternal life.

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