Who are we to judge homosexuality/others?

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
Post Reply
mlynchrules
Acquainted Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:18 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Who are we to judge homosexuality/others?

#1

Post by mlynchrules » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:12 pm

Hello all,

I am a very devoted Christian and have been a participant in a Catholic Church for my entire life and I have a lot of really strong beliefs about God and Jesus and Christianity in general. This being said, there is one thing that I have a lot of difficulty believing. This thing is that we, as Christians, should condemn homosexuality as well as other non-heterosexual orientations. I believe first of all that God created everyone in the way that He wanted the to be and that He loves all of His creations as they are. Also, I don't believe that it is our responsibility to judge others. I think that is God and only God's job. Our job as Christians is to spread God's love to the world. Plus we do live in a world that is not without sin. Everyone is a sinner. Even if you do for whatever reason believe that homosexuality is a sin, who are you to judge them? As is said in John 8:7, "So when they continued asking Him, He lifted up himself, and said unto them, 'He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone'". I thank for your time and also your opinions and look forward to hearing back from you!

User avatar
Furstentum Liechtenstein
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 6:55 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: It's Complicated
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Lower Canuckistan
Has liked: 110 times
Been liked: 34 times

Re: Who are we to judge homosexuality/others?

#2

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:49 pm

You are right, we are not to judge others. Homosexuality isn't a sin but homosexual acts are, just as the desire to steal isn't a sin but stealing is.

In other words, temptation isn't sinful but giving into temptation is.

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

+ + +

If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

+ + +

inlovewiththe44
Recognized Member
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:06 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Who are we to judge homosexuality/others?

#3

Post by inlovewiththe44 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:31 pm

mlynchrules wrote: I believe first of all that God created everyone in the way that He wanted the to be and that He loves all of His creations as they are.
First, God DOES love all his creations regardless of what they do, but that doesn't mean he wants people to continue living in sin.

And on that note, God didn't create the sin. So if someone is homosexual (and we consider it as a sin), God did not create that particular trait in someone. God did not instill thieves with the propensity to steal; sin has pervaded our lives through the sin of Adam and Eve. Also, we have been given free will to choose between good and sin. But that keyword "choose" opens up the whole debate on whether people choose to be homosexual or not. Just knowing my own nature and how I've observed that my character traits are created by the sum of the choices I have made up until this point in my life, I tend to think of homosexuality as being a choice, albeit a complex one that is made of many factors.

mlynchrules
Acquainted Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:18 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Who are we to judge homosexuality/others?

#4

Post by mlynchrules » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:05 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Homosexuality isn't a sin but homosexual acts are
But what qualifies as a homosexual act? Would a homosexual act be something as extreme as having a sexual encounter with someone of the same sex? Or would a homosexual act be something more simple such as desiring to have a relationship with someone of the same sex? How can you justifiably determine what qualifies as a "homosexual act"?
inlovewiththe44 wrote:I tend to think of homosexuality as being a choice, albeit a complex one that is made of many factors.
There are a lot of people who would beg to differ with you. I have heard your viewpoint before, but I don't see homosexuality as a choice but something that is inside of you all along. I'm sure that you have heard this counter argument before, but when did you decide that you were going to be heterosexual? When in a person's life does one decide that they are going to be either heterosexual or homosexual? Also, I have another question. Why do we consider homosexuality or homosexual acts to be a sin? What is so inherently bad about homosexuality?

Danieltwotwenty
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Aussie Land
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 11 times

Re: Who are we to judge homosexuality/others?

#5

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:48 pm

Why do we consider homosexuality or homosexual acts to be a sin? What is so inherently bad about homosexuality?
Because that is what God has decreed,

Leviticus18:22 "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Romans1:26-27 "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another."

Matthew19:12 "For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

There are many more passages relating to homosexual behavior.

Are some people born killers, does it make it ok to kill because you were born like that?


Dan
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

inlovewiththe44
Recognized Member
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:06 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Who are we to judge homosexuality/others?

#6

Post by inlovewiththe44 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:54 pm

The thing is, lynch, you are taking me as saying it was a one-time event and/or choice. I mean to say that our sexuality, as well as other characteristics, comes about by the way we react to and internalize different things we experience in life, whether they are external or internal experiences. And as to your second question, I'm not sure why sexuality is a sin, other than that it is mentioned in the Bible. I really don't understand it either, and sometimes ask God and wonder why it is a sin. I wouldn't have a problem with it, but I'm not really a figure of authority, so... Anyway, just like you may wonder why we do not follow certain customs in the Bible anymore, I too wonder why Christians who support homosexuality throw what is said against it out of the picture, as if it was just an arbitrary command given by God and is now irrelevant.

User avatar
Furstentum Liechtenstein
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 6:55 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: It's Complicated
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Lower Canuckistan
Has liked: 110 times
Been liked: 34 times

Re: Who are we to judge homosexuality/others?

#7

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:34 am

mlynchrules wrote:
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:Homosexuality isn't a sin but homosexual acts are
But what qualifies as a homosexual act? Would a homosexual act be something as extreme as having a sexual encounter with someone of the same sex? Or would a homosexual act be something more simple such as desiring to have a relationship with someone of the same sex? How can you justifiably determine what qualifies as a "homosexual act"?
''What qualifies as a homosexual act?'' Well, listen to this analogy: You want to kill yourself and have made your way to a bridge in order to jump into oblivion. Now, the temptation is in wanting to jump, the sin is in jumping.

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

+ + +

If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

+ + +

User avatar
jlay
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3616
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:47 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 9 times

Re: Who are we to judge homosexuality/others?

#8

Post by jlay » Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:48 am

I believe first of all that God created everyone in the way that He wanted the to be and that He loves all of His creations as they are.
So Hitler, rapists, murderers, drunk drivers, adulterers, porn addicts, etc?

If God created everyone the way that He wanted them to be, then why did He need to send Jesus? If that is the case, then why are we constantly admonished in the scripture to repent and turn to God in faith?
How can you justifiably determine what qualifies as a "homosexual act"?
Can you tell the difference in desiring your neighbors new John Deere lawn tractor and walking over and stealing it?

Let me ask you this, do you think that humans should act on every desire or impulse they have?
My guess is, you said no. Have you ever felt like hitting someone, yet thought better of it and resisted the urge. For resisting this 'natural' urge, are you better or worse for it?
What about a boy or man. (Hetero or Homo) If they have natural urges, should they run to the internet and feed those lust or resist? If they resist are they better for it? Both would be better for it. So, by this example we can see that NEITHER homosexuality and heterosexuality are right based on 'natural' urges. Inclination, natural or coerced is not justification for behavior.

-Homosexuality is absolutely a choice in this regard. Everyone, and I repeat everyone chooses what to do with their sexual organs.
People who cannot control such things are mentally ill or sociopaths, and I doubt anyone here, including you, are saying that homosexuality is such.
What is so inherently bad about homosexuality?
Engaging in homosexual behavior has many dangers and repurcusions. There are studies on such. Of course the homosexual community is active and vocal and will argue against such findings. There are also societal implications that I will cover later. I guess we could ask the same thing about a number of issues. What is inherently wrong with lying?
Our job as Christians is to spread God's love to the world.
Define God's love.
Plus we do live in a world that is not without sin. Everyone is a sinner. Even if you do for whatever reason believe that homosexuality is a sin, who are you to judge them?
When you say, 'everyone is a sinner,' aren't you making a judgment? of course. And a right one. Based on what God's word says. You are taking God at His word. Substitute homosexuality for say, adultery. Even if you believe adultery is a sin, who are you to judge them?
Who are we to judge them? In one sense, the ulitmate sense, no one. I don't think anyone here would say they are qualified to sit in God's seat. However, we are instructed on how to judge rightly.
We need to make sure we are using the word judgement the same in all senses. Example: If someone has good judgement are they acting in agreement or opposition to God's Word?

For me this is a complicated issue. Outside the church, I don't think the Christian really has a lot they can or should do in regards to the biblical aspect. I do think they have an obligation to work within the bounds of their society and government, as a citizen. This is where most abuses occur. As a Christian it is not my place to enfore or coerce my faith or religious tenets onto anyone. As a citizen, it is my right to promote sound ethics that apply to all in that society. So, my reasons for opposing gay marriage at the politcal level is different than opposing it within the church. Christians are to judge INSIDE the bounds of the church. We are commanded in scripture to do such. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV Homosexual acts are one of many issues that should be judged within the confines of the church. And they should be handled no differently than any other. This is where the church fails as they make a big deal out of homosexuality but ignore many cases of adultery.

At the secular level, homosexuality still has issues. As a married parent, I see the normalization of homosexuality having negative repurcusions to the fabric of our society and the institution of marriage. Marriage has a definition. And marriage has a valuable role in building and supporting a scoiety. And to include same sex people under its banner has real repurcusions. So, within that framework, I can vote, campaign, protest, etc. That doesn't mean I am forcing my religion on anyone. Not anymore than campaigning against drunk driving.

Unfortunatly this is where the right wing fundementalist start their vitriol. Beleiving that the Bible is a co-founding document of the USA, they believe it is there Christian duty to publically thump it over the heads of homosexuals.

Personally, if it were not for such a militant homosexual agenda today, I wouldn't give it much thought. But because the homosexual community is wanting to force me to abandon my moral ethic, then I will respond within all my legal rights. This movement doesn't seek to be tolerated, but wants to force me to say it is normal. And to teach my children such against my will, while using my tax dollars.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

mlynchrules
Acquainted Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:18 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Who are we to judge homosexuality/others?

#9

Post by mlynchrules » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:29 pm

To DanielTwoTwenty, I have translated the Word of God in quite a different way than you imply it to be. Let me explain my beliefs behind these passages
Leviticus18:22 "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
During this time frame, it was common practice for an army to rape their opponents when they were defeated in battle. In fact, rape is still a very common in war. Since all of both sides of the military are all male, it would be a man lying with a man as with a woman, and yes, this would be extremely detestable because it is using sexual activity with someone that you are not intimate with and for the purpose of showing "dominance". This is very detestable.
Romans1:26-27 "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another."
I think of this quote as referencing first of all abandoning your wife or in today's terms "getting a divorce" to chase after someone because you only want to engage sexually with them.
Matthew19:12 "For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
This passage I actually don't understand in the slightest. I understand who it is discussing, but what i don't understand is "others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it"

Are some people born killers, does it make it ok to kill because you were born like that?
This is one of the things that I don't understand about arguing against homosexuality. How can you compare homosexuality to something as terrible as murder? Those two things aren't even close enough to compare the two. This brings me also into what Furstentum Liechtenstein said,
You want to kill yourself and have made your way to a bridge in order to jump into oblivion. Now, the temptation is in wanting to jump, the sin is in jumping.
First of all, I want to point out that I don't think that suicide is as black and white as it is made out to be. There is so much grey area and I think that God judges people on an individual case for that. But we are not arguing about suicide, so let's not get into that right now. I still do not understand what qualifies as a homosexual act. I understand that you are saying that thinking about homosexuality is not a sin, but when does it become a sin? When you flirt? When you hold hands? When you hug? When you kiss? When you have sex? When you get married (if it is possible)? When do you deem that it is a sin?

to jlay, Yes. I do believe that God loves Hitler, rapists, murderers, drunk drivers, adulterers, porn addicts, etc. All of these people have issues (although I'm not sure so much if porn addicts are actually sinners, but again, that is for a completely different argument) and these people will be thoroughly judged by God when they die. But how do you compare Hitler to homosexuality?
we can see that NEITHER homosexuality and heterosexuality are right based on 'natural' urges. Inclination, natural or coerced is not justification for behavior.
I do not understand how you can say that your sexuality is not a natural urge. Did you one day decide that you were going to be sexually attracted to someone of the opposite sex? Do you actually think that someone who is homosexual just one day decided "I think today I am going to be attracted to someone of the same sex as me"? I agree with you on the point where you said
everyone chooses what to do with their sexual organs.
This is very true, everyone does choose what they do with their sexual organs. However, what about the feelings behind choosing to have sex with a specific person? If someone is attracted to someone of the same sex, why would they have sex with someone of the opposite sex? It's exactly the same the other way around. If you are attracted to people of the opposite sex of you, would you even consider having sex with someone of the same sex? Of course you wouldn't!

When you asked me to define "God's love" I was very confused. God's love is undefinable, He has love for everyone and everything in His creation. He has so much love that he invites even sinners to heaven.
However, we are instructed on how to judge rightly.
I totally disagree with you here. God never instructed us on how to judge rightly, He only ever instructed us on how we are to live our own lives. Never did He ever tell us how we are to judge others.

And you do say several times that homosexuality is destructive or that it is harmful to society. Why? Why is it harmful? I don't see any possible way to explain how homosexuality is harming a single person. Like I said before, homosexual relationships are exactly the same as heterosexual relationships, the only difference being that homosexual relationships are between two men or two women.

A person who is homosexual feels an attraction towards someone who is of the same sex. This doesn't mean that they are going to go out and have sex with everyone who is the same gender as them just the same as someone who is heterosexual will not go out and have sex with everyone who is the opposite sex. Homosexual people look for one specific person who they love and build a bond with that person exactly the same way that a heterosexual person would. The relationship builds in the exact same way. The only difference between a heterosexual couple and a homosexual couple is the very obvious gender of the two people.

User avatar
jlay
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3616
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:47 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 9 times

Re: Who are we to judge homosexuality/others?

#10

Post by jlay » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:45 pm

I totally disagree with you here. God never instructed us on how to judge rightly, He only ever instructed us on how we are to live our own lives. Never did He ever tell us how we are to judge others.
The Bible most certainly gives us guidelines on how and who to judge. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV
Further, I don't think anyone here is saying homosexual can't be saved. I'm certainly not. I would even say that a homosexual can be saved, even if they don't reform their life. Should they reform their life? IMO, yes. Just as I should reform my life an a number of ways.
A person who is homosexual feels an attraction towards someone who is of the same sex. This doesn't mean that they are going to go out and have sex with everyone who is the same gender as them just the same as someone who is heterosexual will not go out and have sex with everyone who is the opposite sex. Homosexual people look for one specific person who they love and build a bond with that person exactly the same way that a heterosexual person would. The relationship builds in the exact same way. The only difference between a heterosexual couple and a homosexual couple is the very obvious gender of the two people.
If you say it is the same then you ignore what scripture says God ordained.
Eph. 5:23-32
1 Peter 3:1-5, 7
There are other examples in the scrpiture on what marriage is and isn't. And direct condmenations of homosexual behavior in both old and new testaments.
You have beliefs on homosexuality and are welcome to them. And apparently there are things the Bible says about homosexuality that you don't like. It's also apparent that you are going to heed your opinion as the superior authority.
And you do say several times that homosexuality is destructive or that it is harmful to society. Why? Why is it harmful? I don't see any possible way to explain how homosexuality is harming a single person. Like I said before, homosexual relationships are exactly the same as heterosexual relationships, the only difference being that homosexual relationships are between two men or two women.
They are not exactly the same. if they were, we would have no controversy.
I do not understand how you can say that your sexuality is not a natural urge. Did you one day decide that you were going to be sexually attracted to someone of the opposite sex? Do you actually think that someone who is homosexual just one day decided "I think today I am going to be attracted to someone of the same sex as me"? I agree with you on the point where you said
That is not what I said. I said that our natural urges in and of themselves are not validation for behavior. I never made that decision. And I am not saying homosexuals do either. You won't hear that argument from me. I've already proven that natural urges are not validation of behavior. What you are presuming is that I am saying my natural desires are OK, and homosexuals are not. That is not what I am saying. All sexual desires are base. In the most natural form, they are for reproduction, and we know that homosexuals can't reproduce. So, there is one HUGE area that they are not the same. Just based on this we can see that homsexuality is not counter to nature.
So, let's not confuse sexuality for marriage. They do relate, and I think the point above is one reason that marriage is a vital part of society. And is also a reason why promoting a counter-natural behavior can be detremental to society. Engaging in any promiscuous sexual life-style is harmful, but homosexual sex ups the ante.
I am not endorsing this site, but you are welcome to read through for yourself.
http://www.earstohear.net/Separation/facts.html
and, http://factsaboutyouth.com/posts/health ... lifestyle/
If I said my marriage is all about sexuality, then I really wouldn't have much of a marriage. Unfortunately, today, we look at sexuality as the leading force in marriage. It is no wonder so many end in divorce. Sexuality doesn't justify the marriage. Marriage justifies the sexuality. Today the tail is wagging the dog.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

User avatar
Furstentum Liechtenstein
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 6:55 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: It's Complicated
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Lower Canuckistan
Has liked: 110 times
Been liked: 34 times

Re: Who are we to judge homosexuality/others?

#11

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:43 pm

jlay wrote:The Bible most certainly gives us guidelines on how and who to judge. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV
Agreed. We are to judge those within the church and expel them if they revel in immorality as is made clear by 1 Cor 5: 1-8. If you move on to verses 9-12 you'll see that this doesn't apply to the unsaved. They will be judged by God.
mlynchrules wrote:And you do say several times that homosexuality is destructive or that it is harmful to society. Why? Why is it harmful? I don't see any possible way to explain how homosexuality is harming a single person. Like I said before, homosexual relationships are exactly the same as heterosexual relationships, the only difference being that homosexual relationships are between two men or two women.
Mlynchrules, you made this comment to jlay, but I would like to ask: How do you think God sees a homosexual couple?

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

+ + +

If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

+ + +

mlynchrules
Acquainted Member
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:18 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Who are we to judge homosexuality/others?

#12

Post by mlynchrules » Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:00 pm

I think that we are interpreting things differently. The Corinthians verse I interpret as more saying that we shouldn't judge others because that is God's job and that we should only be concerned about our own faith, or the Church.

The next two quotes I don't even see how they relate to anything. When I read those quotes all I see is that the Bible is telling us that women should be submissive to their husbands, which neither I nor a vast majority of Christians would believe to be true today. And I never said that I find my opinion is the ultimate authority. I know that I am not always right. I just have my personal opinion and I want to be able to understand how another Christian could possibly say that homosexuality is a sin.
They are not exactly the same. if they were, we would have no controversy.
But how are they different besides the fact that homosexual relationships are between two men or two women? This is the whole issue that I have, there shouldn't be a controversy regarding homosexuality, in my opinion at least.
That is not what I said. I said that our natural urges in and of themselves are not validation for behavior. I never made that decision. And I am not saying homosexuals do either.
Ok, I do better understand what you were trying to say here. The fact still remains, however, that you are stating that a heterosexual is allowed to act on these "natural urges" whereas homosexual people are not.
All sexual desires are base. In the most natural form, they are for reproduction, and we know that homosexuals can't reproduce.
Yes, this is very true but not all people (heterosexual people included) have sex for the sake of reproduction. In fact, I think that you will find that most people do not have sex with the mindset that they are doing their part in reproduction. So by your standards, this mindset as well as the usage of birth control (which I again, do not wish to argue about here. Completely different topic) is a sin, or unnatural. I'm not going to try to argue with you that homosexuality is found in nature in a multitude of other species because I know that you will just tell me that animals do not have free will and is an invalid argument, so I won't waste either of our time on that one.

There are many heterosexual couples who get married or are in long term relationships but never have children, whether it be by choice or because they are unable to have children. How is a homosexual relationship all that different than a relationship like this?

The last point of your message that I would like to touch on would be in reference to the sites that you suggested. A lot if not all of those statements are circumstantial. At this point I would like to inform you that I am not heterosexual. I am a bisexual male. It's actually slightly insulting what the factsaboutyouth website generalized about homosexuality. In relations to promiscuity, I am probably one of if not the least promiscuous person in existence. I am still a virgin at age 20 and I have no strong desires to change that at any point in the near future. I have only been in one relationship in my entire life and the most intimate that he and I ever got was holding hands. Seeing as I have never had sex, it would be impossible for me to have any STDs and I am very physically healthy. I am also quite mentally healthy as well, I am not depressed, I have never (and will never) use non-prescribed drugs and I will not ever smoke cigarettes either, and I have not attempted to commit suicide and I never want to. Obviously I cannot say anything about what my life span is, but seeing as I have never and choose to not ever engage in unhealthy activities and if I do end up having a boyfriend I will take all of the precautions necessary for safe sex, my life span should not be any shorter than a heterosexual person. And finally monogamy. I, like I said at the very beginning of this conversation, am a very Christian person. I will always be monogamous with my partner and I would not get married (should gay marriage be a legal option) until I was absolutely sure that I was with the person that I want to spend my entire life with.

Well even with all of that being said I'm fairly certain that I still did not change any opinions, but you will probably still judge me as being a sinful human being in need of repentance.

To answer Furstentum Liechtenstein's question
How do you think God sees a homosexual couple?
I think that God loves homosexual couples. Yes, there are a lot of homosexual couples that do not live their lives as good Christian individuals, but there are a lot of heterosexual couples that do not live their lives as good Christian individuals either. I KNOW that God loves me regardless of me being with a man or a woman. I have prayed a lot to Him about my sexuality and I believe that he has provided me with signs that I am doing as he intends me to and that He loves me for being the way that I am.

Danieltwotwenty
Ultimate Member
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2011 3:01 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Aussie Land
Has liked: 37 times
Been liked: 11 times

Re: Who are we to judge homosexuality/others?

#13

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:16 am

To DanielTwoTwenty, I have translated the Word of God in quite a different way than you imply it to be. Let me explain my beliefs behind these passages

Leviticus18:22 "'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.


During this time frame, it was common practice for an army to rape their opponents when they were defeated in battle. In fact, rape is still a very common in war. Since all of both sides of the military are all male, it would be a man lying with a man as with a woman, and yes, this would be extremely detestable because it is using sexual activity with someone that you are not intimate with and for the purpose of showing "dominance". This is very detestable.
I don't see how you read that into the text, please provided proof of your explanation regarding this law being written for warring armies.
lets put the passage back in context, here is the whole of Leviticus18.
Leviticus 18

Unlawful Sexual Relations

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.
6 “‘No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.

7 “‘Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.

8 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father.

9 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.

10 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you.

11 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.

12 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative.

13 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative.

14 “‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.

15 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.

16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.

17 “‘Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.

18 “‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

19 “‘Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.

20 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her.

21 “‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

23 “‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.

24 “‘Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

29 “‘Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.’”

The whole of Leviticus 18 is about what is considered sinful in a sexual relationship, there is absolutely no mention of warring parties and what they do after they win the battle in conjunction with verse 22.

Can you be in a homosexual relationship and be a Christian, sure you can.
Does God love homosexuals, he sure does.
Does that make it right, no.

We are all sinners, we have fallen and we all deserve the worst torment imaginable but God's love is so great that he died and shed his blood to wash our sins clean.
We are not judging you, we are judging your actions and your actions are not who you are and that is the difference between a righteous judgement and a wrong judgement.



Dan
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

Zionist
Established Member
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:41 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Who are we to judge homosexuality/others?

#14

Post by Zionist » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:03 am

i would go into detail on this but i will keep it short as i agree with what the others have said on this matter. homosexuality is sexual immorality and in God's eyes he sees it as an abomination. i do agree God loves all his creation but he doesn't like what they do and He makes it very clear that sexual immorality is a sin and homosexuality is bunched in that along with the rest of the other sexual sins described in Leviticus 18. let me ask you this are you homosexual? if so i would say please keep in prayer and ask God to open your eyes, ears and heart on this matter as He loves you and would not want you to be in state of confusion over this issue but instead bring it to light and see where you may need to work on in yourself and ultimately your walk in Christ.
Our rightousness is of filthy rags and in the eyes of God all have gone astray and nobody is justified under the Law. We are saved by the Grace of God through our faith in Him and in Him who he has sent Jesus Christ alone. There is no other way.

User avatar
Furstentum Liechtenstein
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 6:55 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: It's Complicated
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Lower Canuckistan
Has liked: 110 times
Been liked: 34 times

Re: Who are we to judge homosexuality/others?

#15

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:05 am

mlynchrules wrote:I think that God loves homosexual couples. Yes, there are a lot of homosexual couples that do not live their lives as good Christian individuals, but there are a lot of heterosexual couples that do not live their lives as good Christian individuals either. I KNOW that God loves me regardless of me being with a man or a woman. I have prayed a lot to Him about my sexuality and I believe that he has provided me with signs that I am doing as he intends me to and that He loves me for being the way that I am.
OK...thanks for your answer! Here's another question: How do you think God will judge a homosexual?

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

+ + +

If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

+ + +

Post Reply