So, if I understand correctly, you claim that loving God would rather create "world to reject God". Well, IMO the loving God would create a world wherein His existence was really obvious and at the same time people would be free to reject Him and for that they would not be punished by great suffering
Hana, I'm being completely honest when I say that God's handiwork in creation, is really obvious. I'm not sure if that's what you're getting at when you say "His existence", though. Do you mean a God manifesting Himself in a "physical" existence?
Well, there is still the possibility of forever existing Universe. That nothing was created because everything already was.
So, it is not obvios for everybody that God exist (and Christian God with qualities like described in the Bible). By 'His existence' I mean, well, existence. By His obvious existence I mean to obviously see that the world was created by Him. (And what was created must match with what is described in the Bible, must match with God's personality.)
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
So, if I understand correctly, you claim that loving God would rather create "world to reject God". Well, IMO the loving God would create a world wherein His existence was really obvious and at the same time people would be free to reject Him and for that they would not be punished by great suffering
Hana, I'm being completely honest when I say that God's handiwork in creation, is really obvious. I'm not sure if that's what you're getting at when you say "His existence", though. Do you mean a God manifesting Himself in a "physical" existence?
Well, there is still the possibility of forever existing Universe. That nothing was created because everything already was.
So, it is not obvios for everybody that God exist (and Christian God with qualities like described in the Bible). By 'His existence' I mean, well, existence. By His obvious existence I mean to obviously see that the world was created by Him. (And what was created must match with what is described in the Bible, must match with God's personality.)
Hana, I'm using logical deduction here. from what I see in nature, I believe anyone who created this universe, must be infinitely more powerful, loving, and intelligent than I am. Only the God of the bible fits that bill. The possibility of our temporary universe always existing, has pretty much been proven false, by science. I think it's a pretty understood belief, that this universe had a beginning. I think it's safe to say that any honest, knowledgeable person agrees with that. We can see from observable science, that the laws of entropy are valid, in our universe. That alone, disproves an eternal physical universe.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Rick wrote:
from what I see in nature, I believe anyone who created this universe, must be infinitely more powerful, loving, and intelligent than I am.
Powerful, fine. Intelligent, fine. Loving? Does God who created the world need to be loving? What loving God really mean?
Rick wrote:
The possibility of our temporary universe always existing, has pretty much been proven false, by science.
Powerful, fine. Intelligent, fine. Loving? Does God who created the world need to be loving? What loving God really mean?
There is the 64k question.
I am not sure that it is established that the universe is not eternal.
There are several problems for an eternal universe. One being infinite regress, the other being an issue of causality as covered by Aquinas, which our friend jac can better translate for you.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
Powerful, fine. Intelligent, fine. Loving? Does God who created the world need to be loving? What loving God really mean?
There is the 64k question.
??? 64k probably does not mean kilobytes : )
jlay wrote:
I am not sure that it is established that the universe is not eternal.
There are several problems for an eternal universe. One being infinite regress, the other being an issue of causality as covered by Aquinas, which our friend jac can better translate for you.
Infinite progress? Cannot I say that matter, energy, physical laws were, are and will be?
Issue of causality? I am interested.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
Causality realtes back to Aquinas' five ways. It is an in depth philosophical endeavor. I am reading and re-reading Feser's, Aquinas, A Beginners Guide. Highly recommend.
Are you familiar with the arguments against infinite regress, and of course with the 2nd law of thermodynamics?
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
1over137 wrote:Infinite progress? Cannot I say that matter, energy, physical laws were, are and will be?
Issue of causality? I am interested.
infinite regress, not progress. Infinite regress implies that there is an infinity in the past, which is absurd as infinite by definition is never reached. Getting to a point in time is never possible. (yet here we are).
This is why the word eternal is used instead of infinite for the future (perhaps heaven). Eternal meaning the "potentiality" to never end. But as we can still always measure a time from a start, it is never technically infinite, even though it may never end.
jlay wrote:
Infinite regress implies that there is an infinity in the past, which is absurd as infinite by definition is never reached. Getting to a point in time is never possible. (yet here we are).
That's an interesting argument. Btw, God must have lived outside time (before creation) otherwise one
could use the infinite regress argument on Him. But how could He be living outside time? He could create
some pendulum and thus count the time. Or He could count in His mind. But since He is eternal he would
have counted already infinity when he created our world, which is absurd, since infinity by definition
is never reached. Or God does not have mind, which is even more absurd.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
jlay wrote:
Infinite regress implies that there is an infinity in the past, which is absurd as infinite by definition is never reached. Getting to a point in time is never possible. (yet here we are).
That's an interesting argument. Btw, God must have lived outside time (before creation) otherwise one
could use the infinite regress argument on Him. But how could He be living outside time? He could create
some pendulum and thus count the time. Or He could count in His mind. But since He is eternal he would
have counted already infinity when he created our world, which is absurd, since infinity by definition
is never reached. Or God does not have mind, which is even more absurd.
Therefore God is timeless. He enters into temporality at the point of creation. Before that he was in a state that we cannot begin to fathom.
Silvertusk wrote:
Therefore God is timeless. He enters into temporality at the point of creation. Before that he was in a state that we cannot begin to fathom.
If He is timeless then He does not have mind. How then He could enter into temporality when He was mindless?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
Silvertusk wrote:
Therefore God is timeless. He enters into temporality at the point of creation. Before that he was in a state that we cannot begin to fathom.
If He is timeless then He does not have mind. How then He could enter into temporality when He was mindless?
Huh? How in the world did you reach that conclusion? Care to lay that out in some kind of coherent syllogism please?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
Byblos wrote:
Huh? How in the world did you reach that conclusion? Care to lay that out in some kind of coherent syllogism please?
Timeless is someone who does not experience time. Mind means according to http://www.thefreedictionary.com the faculty of thinking, reasoning and applying knowledge. You can experience time when you count in your
mind. Therefore an entity which does not experience time is mindless.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6
Byblos wrote:
Huh? How in the world did you reach that conclusion? Care to lay that out in some kind of coherent syllogism please?
Timeless is someone who does not experience time. Mind means according to http://www.thefreedictionary.com the faculty of thinking, reasoning and applying knowledge. You can experience time when you count in your
mind. Therefore an entity which does not experience time is mindless.
Mind as attributed to the physical mind as related to a physical brain. There is nothing in the definition of the mind that says it can only be physical. In fact if that were the case, it would directly lead to absolute fatalism as it would deny everything non-physical, i.e. rationality itself, which is the very process that undergirds knowing anything. Creation ex nihilo demands a timeless and immaterial mind.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
