I'm confused?

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Dallas
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I'm confused?

#1

Post by Dallas » Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:54 am

Okay, I was reading a post on here about baptism. Like the title says i'm confused. The reason why I am confused is I grew up in church being told that Salvation comes through the belief in Jesus God dieing and raising again. Then being baptised is a sign of loyalty for God. But from reading that post, It seemed to me that he believed that baptism saves people and not Jesus The Lord and SAVIOR. So can somebody help me here. Did I read it wrong, am I mis-interpeting it, Please someone clarify this for me PLEASE!

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Dallas
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Re: I'm confused?

#2

Post by RickD » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:10 am

Dallas, that thread, has some of us moderators concerned. Domokunrox' belief that water baptism saves, is certainly not something that the bible backs up. Water baptism is a symbol of the true baptism of the Holy Spirit, that believers receive, when they believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Please ask us any questions that are on your mind, Dallas. Domokunrox is alone here in his belief that water baptism is when the Holy Spirit enters a believer.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: I'm confused?

#3

Post by DannyM » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:18 am

Dallas,

Water baptism does not 'save'. Baptism is the symbolic expression of one's faith and commitment, by which we call out to God in expression of that faith. Ask yourself, if you never had faith, would you even think of getting baptised?
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Dallas
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Re: I'm confused?

#4

Post by Dallas » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:27 am

Okay so I wasn't necessarly right or wrong. THANKS :P
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Re: I'm confused?

#5

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:07 pm

Not everyone who posts here believes or is required to believe what the doctirinal statement of faith on this board outlines. Just because someone posts an opinion doesn't mean it's the position of the founder or the moderators (who themselves come from varied backgrounds) of this board.
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Re: I'm confused?

#6

Post by Gman » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:22 pm

Dallas, the way I understand it is that water baptism has nothing to do with salvation.. It would be however more of a personal "sanctification" process for you. It would simply be more of a natural flow, not that you have to do it but would want to do it. I've never been baptized as an adult until this year and I'm glad I did it. But it's more for my spiritual progression. I hope that helps..
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Re: I'm confused?

#7

Post by messiahette » Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:28 am

God bless you my bro Dallas
I see that you are very sincere about this, so I will be sincere too
If you wnat to know the Truth of this its is all found in the Word of God.

Baptism is an outward show of an inward work that God has done in an individual.

In the time of John the Baptist many people were baptized UNTO Repentance, but not for the "Remission"/Removal of Sins because Jesus(the Lamb of God) had not died yet to take away sin.
And once some people wanted to be baptized, and John chased them away saying show "fruits of repentance". In other words John discened that there was no Real evidence of Repetace in their hearts, there was nothing in them that wanted a change.
So then is Baptism important? ABSOLUTELY, all christians MUST be Baptized. Even Jesus Christ(God in flesh) who had the Holy Ghost was Baptized: "to fullfill all righteousness". He himself was baptized to show the necessity of it.
In the book of Acts some believers were already filled with the Holy Ghost before baptism but yet Peter commanded them to be baptized. It is part of the Christian Practices, together with FEETWASHING and COMMUNION which must be done or else you have no part in Him.
Ill leave you with 2 scriptures: Mark 16:16 "He that BELIEVETH and IS BAPTIZED shall be SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned. " Here Jesus show that you must Believe on Him, and out of your Faith in Him you then are baptized. You cannot get baptized without beleiving on HIM. So its a MUST.
Acts 2: 37-38 "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their hearts, and said unto Peter...Men and brethren WHAT SHALL WE DO? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the NAME of JESUS CHRIST for the REMISSION of SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"
I wont explain but leave the Holy Spirit to teach you further on these sayings. If you require more details you may email bevan.coles@yahoo.com

God bless you.

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Re: I'm confused?

#8

Post by StMonicaGuideMe » Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:35 am

What the others said is correct : one does not require WATER baptism to be saved. This is why, in an emergency/life-death situation, a "lay person" can baptize another.
To sustain the belief that there is no God, atheism has to demonstrate infinite knowledge, which is tantamount to saying, “I have infinite knowledge that there is no being in existence with infinite knowledge".

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Re: I'm confused?

#9

Post by RickD » Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:17 am

messiahette wrote:God bless you my bro Dallas
I see that you are very sincere about this, so I will be sincere too
If you wnat to know the Truth of this its is all found in the Word of God.

Baptism is an outward show of an inward work that God has done in an individual.

In the time of John the Baptist many people were baptized UNTO Repentance, but not for the "Remission"/Removal of Sins because Jesus(the Lamb of God) had not died yet to take away sin.
And once some people wanted to be baptized, and John chased them away saying show "fruits of repentance". In other words John discened that there was no Real evidence of Repetace in their hearts, there was nothing in them that wanted a change.
So then is Baptism important? ABSOLUTELY, all christians MUST be Baptized. Even Jesus Christ(God in flesh) who had the Holy Ghost was Baptized: "to fullfill all righteousness". He himself was baptized to show the necessity of it.
In the book of Acts some believers were already filled with the Holy Ghost before baptism but yet Peter commanded them to be baptized. It is part of the Christian Practices, together with FEETWASHING and COMMUNION which must be done or else you have no part in Him.
Ill leave you with 2 scriptures: Mark 16:16 "He that BELIEVETH and IS BAPTIZED shall be SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned. " Here Jesus show that you must Believe on Him, and out of your Faith in Him you then are baptized. You cannot get baptized without beleiving on HIM. So its a MUST.
Acts 2: 37-38 "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their hearts, and said unto Peter...Men and brethren WHAT SHALL WE DO? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the NAME of JESUS CHRIST for the REMISSION of SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"
I wont explain but leave the Holy Spirit to teach you further on these sayings. If you require more details you may email bevan.coles@yahoo.com

God bless you.
Domokunrox, is that you? y#-o
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: I'm confused?

#10

Post by messiahette » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:58 pm

Morning Rick d

No this is messiahette

Water Baptism does not save a person, Jesus Christ alone saves a person, but Water Baptism is essential in the Saving Process, and not only that, but HOW you are Baptized is also Very important. What I am saying is very scriptural and in the Bible.

When Appollos who went around teaching that Jesus Christ was the Messiah, Paul met him and saw how he expounded on the scriptures , but yet there was something lacking the PErson he was speaking of in his temple; the Holy Ghost, So Paul's next question was HOW was he Baptized, he was Baptized by John's Baptism, yet this was not enough at that time beacause now the Lamb of God had layed his life down as a sacrifice, so Baptism had to be in His Name.
So Appollos was Re-baptized, in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
If baptism was not so important then Paul would not have asked that question.
Baptism is Part of the New Birth Process of a Christian: WATER , BLOOD, SPIRIT. This is the process in the natural Birth of a Baby and the process of Redemption of the Earth: Water(Baptized under Noah), BLOOD(The Blood of God spilt on it at Calvary), SPIRIT(FIRE BAPTISM to renovate the earth as shown in the Book of Peter)

Nature even testifies to this. But WATER BAPTISM is NOT SPIRIT BAPTISM.

God bless you Rickd :esmile:

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Re: I'm confused?

#11

Post by RickD » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:53 am

No this is messiahette

Water Baptism does not save a person, Jesus Christ alone saves a person, but Water Baptism is essential in the Saving Process, and not only that, but HOW you are Baptized is also Very important.
So then is Baptism important? ABSOLUTELY, all christians MUST be Baptized.
In the book of Acts some believers were already filled with the Holy Ghost before baptism but yet Peter commanded them to be baptized. It is part of the Christian Practices, together with FEETWASHING and COMMUNION which must be done or else you have no part in Him.
Baptism is Part of the New Birth Process of a Christian: WATER , BLOOD, SPIRIT. This is the process in the natural Birth of a Baby and the process of Redemption of the Earth: Water(Baptized under Noah), BLOOD(The Blood of God spilt on it at Calvary), SPIRIT(FIRE BAPTISM to renovate the earth as shown in the Book of Peter)
Sounds like baptismal regeneration, to me. And maybe "feetwashing regeneration" as well. :lol: Whatever it is, is something other than "saved by God's grace alone".
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: I'm confused?

#12

Post by jlay » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:23 am

Just to clear up some things. Views on baptism generally have to do with hermanuetics. How one is interpreting and applying the scriptures.

For example, is the Baptism of John the baptism we are to receive today? Some would say yes.
Is the baptism of the apostles by Jesus at Pentecost the one we are to receive? Some would say yes.

-The dispensational view is that the baptism of John is in the OT economy of Israel. This is not an ordinance for the church, the Body of Christ.
-The baptism in the HS at pentecost was the promised baptism that John mentions and has to do with the sifting of Israel, the coming wrath and judgment in fire. But this is not the baptism that the BOC receives. This baptism is by Jesus, with the HS. Mark 1:8, Matt 3:11. Acts 1:5
-The Baptism for the church today, is the one that makes no distinctions and is for all who place their faith in Christ. This is the baptism by the HS into the body. 1 Cor 12:13.
Water Baptism does not save a person, Jesus Christ alone saves a person, but Water Baptism is essential in the Saving Process, and not only that, but HOW you are Baptized is also Very important. What I am saying is very scriptural and in the Bible.
Sorry to disagree, but this is the practice and belief of cultic off shoots such as the Church of Christ and the Apostolics. It has to do with poor division of the word of truth. You can say Jesus Christ alone saves, but there is always a but. It puts power not in Christ, but in the one doing the baptizing. In this case the elder or church officer. The church the body of Christ is baptized by one spirit into one body.

Where's the fire baptism Mesh?
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Re: I'm confused?

#13

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:01 am

This is something that is more by inference than explicitly stated but I think Jesus addresses the mindset of legalistic rituals in His first miracle.

When Jesus turned water into wine, he did so using water that was held in containers that appear likely to have been those used to hold ceremonial water for ritual cleansings and yes, even baptisms which were practiced in the Jewish Religion long before Christianity espoused it.

Jesus was taking something of a swipe at the religious, legalistic mindset, not only when He performed His first miracle for such a seemingly unholy purpose as to provide wine to partiers celebrating a wedding, but he used water that most likely was set aside for ritual baptisms. And yes, sorry to those who wish otherwise, the wine Jesus made was clearly alcoholic.

Humans have a very sad tendency toward idolatry in many forms. We look at things that are symbols or metaphors and it becomes very easy to cross a line to where we make the symbol or metaphor more important or even a replacement for what it represents. Baptism even to the Jews was a symbol of a public statement of a change of mind and heart (repentence) about something or someone. Those converting to Judaism went through a baptism to make a statement in that effect. Those repenting and hearing the message of John the Baptist were baptized to make that declaration public at a public place down at the river where everyone could see and the choice couldn't be denied.

Salvation is about Jesus and not whether we get our heads or whole body wet. Those with a religious, legalistic spirit however, latch upon the symbol and use it as a club to beat others and maintain some form of control and a lever to ignite feelings of fear, shame and guilt (the currency of human based religion) and often it further ties to the hierarchy and authority of their movement as opposed to the grace Christ modeled and taught.

Baptism can be and often is a very meaningful experience both for the ones watching and supporting as well as the one being baptized. When we elevate the symbol above the thing itself however, we've missed the point entirely and entered back into Old Testament bondage to a law that we can't keep and one which Jesus kept so that we could be freed from it and enter into a relationship as children of God who no longer have to fear how He loves us or cares for us, because Jesus has accomplished it all.

When people try to load you down with things to keep and do so that you "obey God" remember that first miracle of Jesus and then look at how often he was criticized for doing things that broke the Old Testament Law and the oral tradition that legalists build around it (touching lepers and those with open sores and illnesses as part of bringing healing to them, harvesting grain on the sabbath, healing people on the sabbath, eating with sinners, failing to wash his hands ritually etc. etc.) Legalism is still alive and well and the grace of God still demolishes it when we let God speak true and recognize those who even with good intentions seek to bring people back under bondage.

Relax, rest and have a glass of wine. There's plenty more baptismal water where that came from .... ;)
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Re: I'm confused?

#14

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:21 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:This is something that is more by inference than explicitly stated but I think Jesus addresses the mindset of legalistic rituals in His first miracle.

When Jesus turned water into wine, he did so using water that was held in containers that appear likely to have been those used to hold ceremonial water for ritual cleansings and yes, even baptisms which were practiced in the Jewish Religion long before Christianity espoused it.

Jesus was taking something of a swipe at the religious, legalistic mindset, not only when He performed His first miracle for such a seemingly unholy purpose as to provide wine to partiers celebrating a wedding, but he used water that most likely was set aside for ritual baptisms. And yes, sorry to those who wish otherwise, the wine Jesus made was clearly alcoholic.

Humans have a very sad tendency toward idolatry in many forms. We look at things that are symbols or metaphors and it becomes very easy to cross a line to where we make the symbol or metaphor more important or even a replacement for what it represents. Baptism even to the Jews was a symbol of a public statement of a change of mind and heart (repentence) about something or someone. Those converting to Judaism went through a baptism to make a statement in that effect. Those repenting and hearing the message of John the Baptist were baptized to make that declaration public at a public place down at the river where everyone could see and the choice couldn't be denied.

Salvation is about Jesus and not whether we get our heads or whole body wet. Those with a religious, legalistic spirit however, latch upon the symbol and use it as a club to beat others and maintain some form of control and a lever to ignite feelings of fear, shame and guilt (the currency of human based religion) and often it further ties to the hierarchy and authority of their movement as opposed to the grace Christ modeled and taught.

Baptism can be and often is a very meaningful experience both for the ones watching and supporting as well as the one being baptized. When we elevate the symbol above the thing itself however, we've missed the point entirely and entered back into Old Testament bondage to a law that we can't keep and one which Jesus kept so that we could be freed from it and enter into a relationship as children of God who no longer have to fear how He loves us or cares for us, because Jesus has accomplished it all.

When people try to load you down with things to keep and do so that you "obey God" remember that first miracle of Jesus and then look at how often he was criticized for doing things that broke the Old Testament Law and the oral tradition that legalists build around it (touching lepers and those with open sores and illnesses as part of bringing healing to them, harvesting grain on the sabbath, healing people on the sabbath, eating with sinners, failing to wash his hands ritually etc. etc.) Legalism is still alive and well and the grace of God still demolishes it when we let God speak true and recognize those who even with good intentions seek to bring people back under bondage.

Relax, rest and have a glass of wine. There's plenty more baptismal water where that came from .... ;)
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Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: I'm confused?

#15

Post by KOGnition » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:04 pm

messiahette wrote:God bless you my bro Dallas

Ill leave you with 2 scriptures: Mark 16:16 "He that BELIEVETH and IS BAPTIZED shall be SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned. " Here Jesus show that you must Believe on Him, and out of your Faith in Him you then are baptized. You cannot get baptized without beleiving on HIM. So its a MUST.
Acts 2: 37-38 "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their hearts, and said unto Peter...Men and brethren WHAT SHALL WE DO? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the NAME of JESUS CHRIST for the REMISSION of SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"
I wont explain but leave the Holy Spirit to teach you further on these sayings. If you require more details you may email bevan.coles@yahoo.com

God bless you.
Among other topics, this is one that weighs on my heart constantly...daily. From the above verses however, I just haven't came to the conclusion that baptism involving water is what is being revealed here.

God bless you too!

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