No, Rick. You completely missed my point. when I say predestination, I mean, plans hard set in concrete, can not change, whatsoever, designed by God, not by our will. That would be just knowledge to God, if he knows what we will do. But predestined events are bound to happen, anyway.
No neo, I didn't miss you point. You posted this:
So please guys, lets define these
So, I defined predestination, with my McDonalds example, just like you posted what you believe predestination is.
That is the difference here, predestination is, God willed something to happen, he just didn't know it. He wanted it.
neo, you are aware, that not every Christian agrees with the Calvinist definition of predestination? I'm certainly not the first person that differs with Calvinism on this.
Was the lamb of God, who was slain before the foundations of the earth were ever laid down, slain because God saw in the future and saw that he will be accepted by 12 apostles, just that, nothing else. This is just info, not predestination, Rick. This is God's redemptive plan, regardless of human will. Did man ever willed God to send his son? No. This was initiated by God, totally independent of human choices.
I agree with that, neo. That's a different kind of God's" will."
I am talking about predestination apart from our choices. what about prophecies which are hard set. I am not talking about predestination of our actions. choice and predestination doesn't coincide. You are looking at it from the opposite side. You are tracing predestination, from your action and backwards. I am not saying this at all.
Under your definition of "predestination", choice and predestination don't coincide. Under the definition I hold, sometimes our choices do coincide.
Predestination can exist without human will and intent.
I agree. With the emphasis on "can exist". It can exist without human will and intent, but predestination doesn't always exist without human choices.
btw. simply put, these are two different things, if something is predestined, it is predestined, your choice or my choice does not matter at all.
Neo, that's how you see it under your idea of predestination. It's not as simply put, as you make it. Many people disagree with your definition. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that it's open to interpretation.
Was Jesus predestined to be born? according to your definition, its because God saw Mary in the future saying yes to the angel, that's it.
That's misrepresenting my definition, neo. I'm not saying the only
reason why Jesus was predestined to be born, was because God foreknew what Mary would do. But foreknowledge is a part of predestination.
God''s big plans are not set by looking into the future at human responses. His plans are not our plans, rick. Jesus would be born, whether someone wanted it or not. so the prophecies could be fulfilled.
I agree with that.
Predestination implies God's will, as in prophecies. For example, what you are saying can be perused to really absurd conclusions. For example, was the Holocaust predestined?
I don't see limiting predestination to prophecies. Did God, who is outside of time, know the holocaust was going to happen? Yes. If God knows, for a fact, that something will happen, then it is absolutely going to happen. Therefore; predestination.
You can say it was, based on Hitler's decision which God knew. Technically it would be just omniscience to God, not predestination. predestination would mean, God designed Hitler to be like this and so he went and ultimately God was responsible for the Holocaust. So the definition of predestination you are using is not whole, as I showed you above. Predestination is bigger then our choices, Rick. or else what is predestination if it is not designed by God.
I see what you're saying, neo. And in certain instances, I agree with you. But in others, I don't. Like I don't agree with this, from Calvinism, as I've said before:
Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).