Can God Ever Have An Original Thought?

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Re: Can God Ever Have An Original Thought?

#61

Post by Philip » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:00 am

How do you know? In fact how do I know. Neither of us are God.
So, how then do you define ALL knowing?

God thinks in accordance with His will and purpose. Therefore, He always knows how He will think and respond at and IN any given point in time and in every circumstance. As He knows all future events and actions of man, He also foreknows exactly how He will respond to them, (as: 1) He can see the future; 2) He always acts in accordance with His will; 3) His will never changes), how they will respond back, etc, etc. As God is in total control, it is He Who ultimately determines events and outcomes - and yet He can do this despite the limited free will He gave us. As God does not change, neither do His thoughts. His subsequent thoughts were always known to Him. The whole time issue really relates to the fact that God created it, but He is not subject to it, as His Creation is.
Last edited by Philip on Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can God Ever Have An Original Thought?

#62

Post by CeT-To » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:14 am

DannyM wrote:
CeT-To wrote:LOL i think you have it the other way around, it's not that God knows his will because he knows the future but God knows the future because he knows his will. Where did you get the guesses thing from? I never said that.
Absolutely. If God's will depended on future events then it would not be His will. God doesn't 'adapt' His will to some future outcome.
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Re: Can God Ever Have An Original Thought?

#63

Post by Byblos » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:19 am

CeT-To wrote:
DannyM wrote:
CeT-To wrote:LOL i think you have it the other way around, it's not that God knows his will because he knows the future but God knows the future because he knows his will. Where did you get the guesses thing from? I never said that.
Absolutely. If God's will depended on future events then it would not be His will. God doesn't 'adapt' His will to some future outcome.
FINALLY SOMEONE IS ON MY SIDE :pound: :crying: HAHAHA
Watchu talkin' 'bout Willis? That's what we've been saying all along (maybe I'm thinking of a different thread, I don't know, Lord there are so many ...)
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

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Re: Can God Ever Have An Original Thought?

#64

Post by CeT-To » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:22 am

Byblos wrote:
CeT-To wrote:
DannyM wrote:
CeT-To wrote:LOL i think you have it the other way around, it's not that God knows his will because he knows the future but God knows the future because he knows his will. Where did you get the guesses thing from? I never said that.
Absolutely. If God's will depended on future events then it would not be His will. God doesn't 'adapt' His will to some future outcome.
FINALLY SOMEONE IS ON MY SIDE :pound: :crying: HAHAHA
Watchu talkin' 'bout Willis? That's what we've been saying all along (maybe I'm thinking of a different thread, I don't know, Lord there are so many ...)
LOL probably, ive seen like a couple of these predestination ones now :P but i've been sticking to one so that's why maybe i havent seen your posts.
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

I Praise you Yahweh, my Lord, my God!!!!!

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Re: Can God Ever Have An Original Thought?

#65

Post by DannyM » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:51 pm

Byblos wrote:
CeT-To wrote:
DannyM wrote:
CeT-To wrote:LOL i think you have it the other way around, it's not that God knows his will because he knows the future but God knows the future because he knows his will. Where did you get the guesses thing from? I never said that.
Absolutely. If God's will depended on future events then it would not be His will. God doesn't 'adapt' His will to some future outcome.
FINALLY SOMEONE IS ON MY SIDE :pound: :crying: HAHAHA
Watchu talkin' 'bout Willis? That's what we've been saying all along (maybe I'm thinking of a different thread, I don't know, Lord there are so many ...)
It seems a few of us have been saying this on about half a dozen threads now ;)
credo ut intelligam

dei gratia

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Re: Can God Ever Have An Original Thought?

#66

Post by messiahette » Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:08 am

Yes God's First thoughts are His Original Thoughts.
Any thoights after His original, is a further Unfolding of those original thoughts

The Spoken Word is the Original Seed

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Re: Can God Ever Have An Original Thought?

#67

Post by Philip » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:17 am

Yes God's First thoughts are His Original Thoughts.
But don't you think that words "original thought" must also mean a "new" one - as in a thought He'd never yet had before or hadn't previously known He'd have? So, the question is, IF God is ALL knowing, can He Himself ever have a new/original thought IN TIME He'd not previously known about? Or hadn't ALWAYS known about? I think the whole issue of time is key here. WE are subject to time and what can be known about events, but only as the develop in real time. Remember, God never changes. His will never changes. Also, remember that as God knows exactly the actions of man in the future, then He also must know what He would decide in every circumstance and age - in relation to man's actions.

This issue may be much like trying to wrap our minds around the fact that God is eternal. Or when we're thinking of the Trinity.

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Re: Can God Ever Have An Original Thought?

#68

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:49 am

Is God a person (or three persons) or a completely unchangable Greek Philosophical principle or attribute?

This question is not very different from "Can God ever be surprised" ... "Can God make a rock so big He can't lift it" and any number of other absurdities that Greek Philosophical Dualism and Syncretism gives rise to.

Maybe the better question might be, Can I ever have an original thought about God or do I think I've got him all figured out and have I stripped the mystery of Him away to where he is no bigger than the limits of my own ability to understand?
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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Re: Can God Ever Have An Original Thought?

#69

Post by Philip » Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:31 pm

If God can know all of OUR future actions, then He also must know what all of HIS future reactions and related thoughts will (accordingly) be in reaction to OUR future actions. If God has always known everything about us - before history - then how could He not also ALWAYS have known that, at some future point, He also would have the "thought" to create us and all of the minute details of His Creation plan related to that thought? In fact, if God knows everything about the future, and as HE HIMSELF is the Creator of all living entities that actually HAVE a future (and thus make our collective future even possible), then how could there ever have been a moment in which He hasn't known He would create us and precisely how He would do so? So, to GOD, the timeline of human events is as if it is all simultaneous - He is complete in His knowledge of all things. It would also appear that ALL of God's thoughts are also simultaneous, although He acts out His knowledge (from our point of view) in a real-time sequence. But yet, as God stands outside of time, so assigning a TIME sequence to God's thoughts would seem to be a contradiction - meaning, He can have no ORIGINAL thoughts, as ALL of His thoughts (past, present and future) are simply simultaneous. Some may think that asserting that God can have no original thoughts is somehow also saying He is limited in His abilities, but my view is exactly the opposite - meaning that God's knowledge of everything about Himself, including ALL of His thoughts and actions, is unlimited, in any way.

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Re: Can God Ever Have An Original Thought?

#70

Post by CeT-To » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:39 am

Philip wrote:If God can know all of OUR future actions, then He also must know what all of HIS future reactions and related thoughts will (accordingly) be in reaction to OUR future actions. If God has always known everything about us - before history - then how could He not also ALWAYS have known that, at some future point, He also would have the "thought" to create us and all of the minute details of His Creation plan related to that thought? In fact, if God knows everything about the future, and as HE HIMSELF is the Creator of all living entities that actually HAVE a future (and thus make our collective future even possible), then how could there ever have been a moment in which He hasn't known He would create us and precisely how He would do so? So, to GOD, the timeline of human events is as if it is all simultaneous - He is complete in His knowledge of all things. It would also appear that ALL of God's thoughts are also simultaneous, although He acts out His knowledge (from our point of view) in a real-time sequence. But yet, as God stands outside of time, so assigning a TIME sequence to God's thoughts would seem to be a contradiction - meaning, He can have no ORIGINAL thoughts, as ALL of His thoughts (past, present and future) are simply simultaneous. Some may think that asserting that God can have no original thoughts is somehow also saying He is limited in His abilities, but my view is exactly the opposite - meaning that God's knowledge of everything about Himself, including ALL of His thoughts and actions, is unlimited, in any way.
You take the position of B theory of time which includes God seeing all time simultaneous and all time is real which means Moses is still in the desert thousands of years ago and yet in heaven and Jesus is still at the cross and yet at the right hand of the Father. You cannot take this view its full of contradictions for the Christian.
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

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Re: Can God Ever Have An Original Thought?

#71

Post by Philip » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:37 am

You take the position of B theory of time which includes God seeing all time simultaneous and all time is real which means Moses is still in the desert thousands of years ago and yet in heaven and Jesus is still at the cross and yet at the right hand of the Father.
That is absolutely NOT what I am thinking! Why do you think God can see and predicts future events? Just because God KNOWS all and can SEE all, does not in any way mean that all such events don't play out in our real time sequence here on earth - as they most definitely DO. My assertion is merely about what God can and does KNOW, and has ALWAYS known - which is EVERYTHING/All events/All times.

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Re: Can God Ever Have An Original Thought?

#72

Post by CeT-To » Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:03 am

Philip wrote:
You take the position of B theory of time which includes God seeing all time simultaneous and all time is real which means Moses is still in the desert thousands of years ago and yet in heaven and Jesus is still at the cross and yet at the right hand of the Father.
That is absolutely NOT what I am thinking! Why do you think God can see and predicts future events? Just because God KNOWS all and can SEE all, does not in any way mean that all such events don't play out in our real time sequence here on earth - as they most definitely DO. My assertion is merely about what God can and does KNOW, and has ALWAYS known - which is EVERYTHING/All events/All times.
Sure he knows all but he doesn't like see the block of timeline in one go because if he did it naturally means that there is no time but all events are equally real and there infront of God.
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

I Praise you Yahweh, my Lord, my God!!!!!

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Re: Can God Ever Have An Original Thought?

#73

Post by Philip » Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:39 am

Sure he knows all but he doesn't like see the block of timeline in one go because if he did it naturally means that there is no time but all events are equally real and there infront of God.
What do you mean? Is God ALL knowing or not? Can He see and direct the future or not? We see events as they play out in time. God sees them in BOTH ways - as they actually happen and ETERNALLY before they happen - as He has ALWAYS known ALL things. From the stand point of God's KNOWLEDGE of events, time is irrelevant: To him, knowledge of a day a million years from now is as if it were yesterday.

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Re: Can God Ever Have An Original Thought?

#74

Post by CeT-To » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:49 pm

Philip wrote:
Sure he knows all but he doesn't like see the block of timeline in one go because if he did it naturally means that there is no time but all events are equally real and there infront of God.
What do you mean? Is God ALL knowing or not? Can He see and direct the future or not? We see events as they play out in time. God sees them in BOTH ways - as they actually happen and ETERNALLY before they happen - as He has ALWAYS known ALL things. From the stand point of God's KNOWLEDGE of events, time is irrelevant: To him, knowledge of a day a million years from now is as if it were yesterday.
I'm not saying he doesn't know the future - please stop asking that lol. I'm talking about the way he "sees" it. hmmm when you say "see" do you just mean "know" or "to be witnessing it presently at the moment"?
Philip wrote:So, to GOD, the timeline of human events is as if it is all simultaneous - He is complete in His knowledge of all things. It would also appear that ALL of God's thoughts are also simultaneous, although He acts out His knowledge (from our point of view) in a real-time sequence. But yet, as God stands outside of time, so assigning a TIME sequence to God's thoughts would seem to be a contradiction - meaning, He can have no ORIGINAL thoughts, as ALL of His thoughts (past, present and future) are simply simultaneous.
This is definitely B theory of time.
Philip wrote:
You take the position of B theory of time which includes God seeing all time simultaneous and all time is real which means Moses is still in the desert thousands of years ago and yet in heaven and Jesus is still at the cross and yet at the right hand of the Father.
That is absolutely NOT what I am thinking! Why do you think God can see and predicts future events? Just because God KNOWS all and can SEE all, does not in any way mean that all such events don't play out in our real time sequence here on earth - as they most definitely DO. My assertion is merely about what God can and does KNOW, and has ALWAYS known - which is EVERYTHING/All events/All times.
It is what you are saying - God sees all events simultaneously outside the timeline block, meaning that all events exist "now" in front of God outside the timeblock. The reason i say this is because if you take the view that God sees all events simultaneously and is outside the time then you can't say the past does not exist any more and the future is yet to come - since time would be subjective, then for moses in the desert is now for him and we are the future and to those 100 years from now we are the past and they are in the present and so forth, if he sees all simultaneously then they are all equally real.
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

I Praise you Yahweh, my Lord, my God!!!!!

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Re: Can God Ever Have An Original Thought?

#75

Post by Philip » Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:05 pm

CeT-To, I think we're straining a knat, here.

It is that ALL of God's KNOWLEDGE of events (past, present and future) are equally, simultaneously and perfectly clear to Him - certainly not that all events are all ongoing SIMULTANEOUSLY in real time or that He can simultaneously SEE THEM playing out in such a way. It's that He KNOWS of all events just AS IF He is watching them simultaneously - it's what God can and does KNOW, and has ALWAYS known - and that is EVERYTHING in ALL times. God is complete in His knowledge of ALL things - this is why He is said to be ALL knowing.

Enough on that, we either agree or not. But this is what Scripture teaches.

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