Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread

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domokunrox
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Re: Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine *

#1

Post by domokunrox » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:12 am

*EDITED BY ME TO PUT SCRIPTURE IN QUOTES*

Ok, so I'm going to post solely at Byblos request. I will do this in sections because I don't how large amounts of time. My father in law had a stroke yesterday and he has been hospitalized, so it might be difficult for me to complete all my thoughts on Calvinism in a short period of time. Again, I will do this in parts and allow you guys to discuss it.

According to this Calvinist center for theology and apologetics website (http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/index.html) where the Calvinist doctrine is. There is a disclaimer
“This description of the Five Points of Calvinism was written by Jonathan Barlow who acknowledges that not all those bearing the name "Calvinist" would agree with every jot and tittle of this document.”
Now, to be honest. This is good enough. If there is another writing elsewhere that you think is better, fine. But this is what I've been shown, and this is what I'm going to work with.

There some scripture that I want cite before I start. I want to make it very clear that this IS THE WORD OF GOD. It does not “contain” the word or “becomes” the word God. There is no such thing that the bible awakens you in some kind of spiritual experience. The Bible IS the word of God and it is DIRECT communication. The bible is what brings us to life. So, lets go ahead and read it here.

1 John 4:1-6
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4 You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Quick translation? Every spirit and every teaching that teaches that Jesus is God in the flesh IS FROM GOD. Anything else is NOT from God. I want to make that VERY clear. The doctrine MUST say Jesus IS GOD IN THE FLESH. Because he is FULLY God and FULLY Man.

Need that proof? Take a look in Philippians 2:5-11

5 Have this attitude [e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped, 7 but [g]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [h]on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
It is very important that we understand who it is that we worship in Jesus Christ. That is the name which is above EVERY name.

Ok, now I'm going to go ahead look at the Calvinist doctrine in what they call the 5 points known as “TULIP”. Now right off the bat, I personally have an issue. Maybe its just me, but in light of reading the 2 scriptures I just showed. Perhaps any doctrine should start with Jesus Christ don't you all think? It might be picky, but I think its important to point out that Jesus Christ is clearly not the focal point of the doctrine until they prove otherwise.

Lets take a look at the according to Calvinism:
Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

Now, the holy spirit is an entirely different subject and I SHOULD make a thread for when you ACTUALLY receive it. I actually planned to do that 1st but Byblos thinks otherwise. But in short, You receive the holy spirit AFTER Baptism. If you need that proof, thats an entirely different thread and discussion. I encourage you all to read up about baptism before I talk about it, for those of you who disagree or think that baptism is “salvation by works”. There are churches or individuals who believe that you only need to call upon the name of the Lord or only need to believe to be saved, and that again is another subject in connection with baptism.

In any case, lets move onto the first point of Calvinism known as T for Total depravity or sometimes known as Total Inability which is as follows

Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.
The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5).

Lets look at Mark 4:9 & 12 NASB
9 And He was saying, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

12 so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”
Well, look at what we found here. It says that we MAY see or perceive & not see or understand. It does NOT say that we CANNOT perceive or understand. Now, this is Jesus directly talking, folks. You know who Jesus is now, right? Lets look further into the explanation in verse 16
16 In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy
Take notice here, guys. You hear the word, and RECEIVE it with joy. It wasn't forced or without consent. It doesn't say anything about the holy spirit. Its just plain communication. Need an example of God plainly communicating with his creation to bring us to reason? God and creation working it out together? Lets look at Isaiah chapter 1 where God wants to reason with sinners
18 “Come now, and let us reason together,” 
Says the LORD, 
“Though your sins are as scarlet, 
They will be as white as snow; 
Though they are red like crimson, 
They will be like wool. 
19 “If you consent and obey, 
You will eat the best of the land; 
20 “But if you refuse and rebel, 
You will be devoured by the sword.” 
Truly, the mouth of the LORD has spoken.
Notice how he tells us “If we consent and obey”?
This tells us we HAVE A CHOICE.
Also, if the doctrine of Calvinism is true. Why would God need to reason and ask for the consent of dead people who are dead in their sins and trespasses? Clearly God does here with the vile people of Sodom and Gomorrah because they have the ABILITY to reason and give consent. He still does today through the word of God and the saving grace of Jesus Christ.

Total depravity or inability? Total nonsense, imo. Next up is Unconditional Election. When? Not sure. Like I stated, my father in law is hospitalized and actually as I was writing this my wife called me and told me he was in the ICU. Do you all mind praying for me? His name is Roy, and he taught me a great deal of the bible and I love him dearly.

God bless

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Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread

#2

Post by RickD » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:20 am

Guys here is the post that started this new topic. Sorry for the confusion. Everyone gets a fresh start, to respond to domokunrox post, especially this quote:
Now, the holy spirit is an entirely different subject and I SHOULD make a thread for when you ACTUALLY receive it. I actually planned to do that 1st but Byblos thinks otherwise. But in short, You receive the holy spirit AFTER Baptism.
Please keep this topic about Baptism.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread

#3

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:58 am

Baptisim is one of those things that has been made to be more controversial then it needs to be, but that was even the case in the time of Paul:
1Corinthians:
Now I beg you, brothers, through the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 1:11 For it has been reported to me concerning you, my brothers, by those who are from Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. 1:12 Now I mean this, that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” “I follow Apollos,” “I follow Cephas,” and, “I follow Christ.” 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized into the name of Paul? 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, except Crispus and Gaius, 1:15 so that no one should say that I had baptized you into my own name. 1:16 (I also baptized the household of Stephanas; besides them, I don’t know whether I baptized any other.) 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the Good News—not in wisdom of words, so that the cross of Christ wouldn’t be made void. 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are dying, but to us who are saved it is the power of God.

While Paul baptized he didn't view it as more important than the actual Gospel of Christ.
Some seemed to think that WHO baptized them gave them of their baptizim more "authority" and Paul sets the record straight that it is not the case.

Baptizim is an issue for many and for many different reasons:
Who can baptize?
Is infant baptizim valid?
Does baptizim save? Must one be baptized to be saved?
Etc.

All this does is divert attention from the Gospel of Our Lord.
Let's remember that Christ baptized NO ONE ( although his disciples did) and that Christ made it clear that the water baptizim was just a "warm up" for the "real" baptizing with the Holy Spirit.

IMHO:
For those that wish to baptized their children, that is fine and for those that feel only someone old enough to understand what is happening should be baptized, that's fine too. I think that as long as the baptisim is done in the name of The Father, Son and HS that WHO does the baptizim is irrelevant.
I do NOT believe baptizim is NEEDED for salvation but I do think that for some the act makes them "born again".

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Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread

#4

Post by RickD » Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:20 pm

I do NOT believe baptizim is NEEDED for salvation but I do think that for some the act makes them "born again".
The physical act of water baptism, makes some born again? Or what the water symbolizes, makes someone born again?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread

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Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:06 pm

RickD wrote:
I do NOT believe baptizim is NEEDED for salvation but I do think that for some the act makes them "born again".
The physical act of water baptism, makes some born again? Or what the water symbolizes, makes someone born again?
It is symbolisim.
That water was used and is still used is based on the Jewish water purification ritual mikvah (sp?)
We are "washing away" our sins and being "reborn" into a new life.
For some that act is a very, very powerful symbol.

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Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread

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Post by RickD » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:37 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:
I do NOT believe baptizim is NEEDED for salvation but I do think that for some the act makes them "born again".
The physical act of water baptism, makes some born again? Or what the water symbolizes, makes someone born again?
It is symbolisim.
That water was used and is still used is based on the Jewish water purification ritual mikvah (sp?)
We are "washing away" our sins and being "reborn" into a new life.
For some that act is a very, very powerful symbol.
How does the "act" make them born again, if it's just a symbol? Aren't Jewish rituals things that point to Christ, and offer no salvation in and of themselves?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread

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Post by Proinsias » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:07 pm

RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:
I do NOT believe baptizim is NEEDED for salvation but I do think that for some the act makes them "born again".
The physical act of water baptism, makes some born again? Or what the water symbolizes, makes someone born again?
It is symbolisim.
That water was used and is still used is based on the Jewish water purification ritual mikvah (sp?)
We are "washing away" our sins and being "reborn" into a new life.
For some that act is a very, very powerful symbol.
How does the "act" make them born again, if it's just a symbol? Aren't Jewish rituals things that point to Christ, and offer no salvation in and of themselves?
I don't think anyone is suggesting being baptised in water can offer salvation in and of itself. If that's the case I'm sorted as my parents got me baptised not long after I was born. I think what Paul is saying is that the ritualistic and symbolic nature of baptism often has a very powerful effect on the relationship people have with Christ.
At another extreme the Bible is a collection of symbols which often figures in people claiming they are born again.

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Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread

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Post by RickD » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:15 pm

Proinsias wrote:
RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:
I do NOT believe baptizim is NEEDED for salvation but I do think that for some the act makes them "born again".
The physical act of water baptism, makes some born again? Or what the water symbolizes, makes someone born again?
It is symbolisim.
That water was used and is still used is based on the Jewish water purification ritual mikvah (sp?)
We are "washing away" our sins and being "reborn" into a new life.
For some that act is a very, very powerful symbol.
How does the "act" make them born again, if it's just a symbol? Aren't Jewish rituals things that point to Christ, and offer no salvation in and of themselves?
I don't think anyone is suggesting being baptised in water can offer salvation in and of itself. If that's the case I'm sorted as my parents got me baptised not long after I was born. I think what Paul is saying is that the ritualistic and symbolic nature of baptism often has a very powerful effect on the relationship people have with Christ.
At another extreme the Bible is a collection of symbols which often figures in people claiming they are born again.
Paul seemed to me, to be saying that water baptism makes people "born again", because of how I read this quote:
I do NOT believe baptizim is NEEDED for salvation but I do think that for some the act makes them "born again".

I'm just looking for clarification.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread

#9

Post by RickD » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:22 pm

I don't think anyone is suggesting being baptised in water can offer salvation in and of itself.
domokunrox is certainly saying that If one isn't baptized in water, then one doesn't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If one doesn't have the indwelling of the HS, then one isn't saved.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread

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Post by Proinsias » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:29 pm

RickD wrote:
I don't think anyone is suggesting being baptised in water can offer salvation in and of itself.
domokunrox is certainly saying that If one isn't baptized in water, then one doesn't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If one doesn't have the indwelling of the HS, then one isn't saved.
Seems a little extreme to me but still not suggesting that baptism in and of itself can bring salvation.

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Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread

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Post by Proinsias » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:31 pm

RickD wrote: Paul seemed to me, to be saying that water baptism makes people "born again", because of how I read this quote:
I do NOT believe baptizim is NEEDED for salvation but I do think that for some the act makes them "born again".

I'm just looking for clarification.
He seems to be saying that it can in some cases make people "born again", not that it is a necessary factor in being born again.

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Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread

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Post by domokunrox » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:01 pm

I had a load of verses quoted, but unfortunately got butchered.

I am tired with all the effort I put yesterday. Sorry guys, but I'll go ahead and link you to a site.

http://www.bebaptized.org

It has all the answers. All the objections you guys have or comments on baptism is addressed there. Read it, you will change your mind.

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Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread

#13

Post by RickD » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:40 pm

domokunrox wrote:I had a load of verses quoted, but unfortunately got butchered.

I am tired with all the effort I put yesterday. Sorry guys, but I'll go ahead and link you to a site.

http://www.bebaptized.org

It has all the answers. All the objections you guys have or comments on baptism is addressed there. Read it, you will change your mind.
dom, there were many more posts that I had taken the time to write, as well. There were a whole bunch of my posts, that you hadn't gotten a chance to respond to. I am sorry that I messed up the thread, and it's now time to start fresh. If anyone is interested.

All of the verses in the link, when read in proper context, do not say that water baptism saves. If anyone has questions, please post them, and someone here will help you.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread

#14

Post by RickD » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:22 pm

For those of you who want to read a different perspective on water baptism, here is a link to an article, written by Rich Deem. He is the founder and owner of this website.
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/baptism.html

Please ask questions.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Water baptism/split from free will predestination thread

#15

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:44 am

What I was trying to say is that, for some people, the symbolisim of the water purification of the baptizim is like being born again.
Baptizim in of itself means nothing without the grace of God through Christ by the power of the HS.
I was baptized as a infant (RCC) and I have at times though that I should get "re-baptized" as an adult, then I realized that once I accepted Christ as my Lord and Saviour, that I believe that He died and was ressurected and that I know He will come again, that I have already been "baptized" by the HS.

But I understand that for some the act of baptizim as an adult has very deep and personal meaning.

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