Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine ****

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Re: Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine *

#106

Post by DannyM » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:09 pm

Silvertusk wrote:Let me ask you a question - If your boy grew up an atheist and rejected God outright - how could you reconcile yourself with God when he chose not to chose your child as a believer. I have the same issue - Why did God choose me and not my brother, my Dad, my father in-law and my Uncle. What happens if my little girl also grows up also not chosen by God. Could I possibly worship and love a God who didn't give my family the same chance as me - especially my little girl after all the trouble we went through to get a child in the first place. Does that honestly sound fair to you? I think this might be one of those areas where we have to respectfully agree to disagree as I cannot see an all loving God fitting in the other scenario - and I know I am certainly not alone in this view.
Well for one I could never know for sure that he wasn't chosen.

Also, it's an emotional argument, Bro, which ultimately assumes that X ought to be saved.
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Re: Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine *

#107

Post by DannyM » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:11 pm

RickD wrote:John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life

Silvertusk, I just can't get past this verse either. I can see many other verses on both sides of the argument, going either way. But this just stands out, to me.
This verse isn't so problematic, Rick.
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Re: Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine *

#108

Post by RickD » Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:21 pm

DannyM wrote:
RickD wrote:John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life

Silvertusk, I just can't get past this verse either. I can see many other verses on both sides of the argument, going either way. But this just stands out, to me.
This verse isn't so problematic, Rick.
It's not problematic to me, Danny, with what I believe about predestination, and man's choice. If you are saying it's not problematic in a Calvinistic U of TULIP way, I'm all ears. I honestly would like to think John 3:16, and Unconditional Election of Calvinism, are not opposed. So, have at it.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine *

#109

Post by zacchaeus » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:07 pm

What if your a Calvinist or you believe in predestination and your not predestined for eternal life in Heaven but predestined for hell, yet you spend years defending the gospel of predestination and/or Calvinism? That would suck... :esurprised:

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Re: Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine *

#110

Post by RickD » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:11 pm

zacchaeus wrote:What if your a Calvinist or you believe in predestination and your not predestined for eternal life in Heaven but predestined for hell, yet you spend years defending the gospel of predestination and/or Calvinism? That would suck... :esurprised:
Zacchaeus, Don't forget that Calvinists believe in Christ, first and foremost. We can't forget that this topic is a discussion between believers, within the church. What one believes about predestination, is a non essential, as long as there is a belief in Christ.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine *

#111

Post by zacchaeus » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:27 pm

RickD wrote:
zacchaeus wrote:What if your a Calvinist or you believe in predestination and your not predestined for eternal life in Heaven but predestined for hell, yet you spend years defending the gospel of predestination and/or Calvinism? That would suck... :esurprised:
Zacchaeus, Don't forget that Calvinists believe in Christ, first and foremost. We can't forget that this topic is a discussion between believers, within the church. What one believes about predestination, is a non essential, as long as there is a belief in Christ.
That doesn't make sense though, believer or not... whose to say we will all stay a believer or that we want fall from our secure position, rebuke God, blaspheme the Holy Spirit, become a reprobate or whatever... especially if were predestined? If were predestined, it just doesn't matter! I think this is the fundamental issue along with freewill that we can't conclude or agree on. If we are predestined then its already planed and we are either written to eternal life with Christ or eternal damnation in hell, despite if we are believers now or not... what is for sure is that its our current spiritual status when we die that will determine where we go...

...unless your saying that those believing right now have been predestined and we are just fulfilling Gods will cause that would make sense, although that would def mean no time specifically on predestination... for ex: we must believe when we chose to believe that -that was the plan of predestination for us, and those that are saved later same for them...

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Re: Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine *

#112

Post by Echoside » Thu Nov 10, 2011 5:43 pm

RickD wrote:
zacchaeus wrote:What if your a Calvinist or you believe in predestination and your not predestined for eternal life in Heaven but predestined for hell, yet you spend years defending the gospel of predestination and/or Calvinism? That would suck... :esurprised:
Zacchaeus, Don't forget that Calvinists believe in Christ, first and foremost. We can't forget that this topic is a discussion between believers, within the church. What one believes about predestination, is a non essential, as long as there is a belief in Christ.
In the context of Christians RickD I agree with you. But that's not the only audience that's spectating, I've got basically the same questions everyone else does.

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Re: Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine *

#113

Post by RickD » Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:57 pm

zacchaeus wrote:
RickD wrote:
zacchaeus wrote:What if your a Calvinist or you believe in predestination and your not predestined for eternal life in Heaven but predestined for hell, yet you spend years defending the gospel of predestination and/or Calvinism? That would suck... :esurprised:
Zacchaeus, Don't forget that Calvinists believe in Christ, first and foremost. We can't forget that this topic is a discussion between believers, within the church. What one believes about predestination, is a non essential, as long as there is a belief in Christ.
That doesn't make sense though, believer or not... whose to say we will all stay a believer or that we want fall from our secure position, rebuke God, blaspheme the Holy Spirit, become a reprobate or whatever... especially if were predestined? If were predestined, it just doesn't matter! I think this is the fundamental issue along with freewill that we can't conclude or agree on. If we are predestined then its already planed and we are either written to eternal life with Christ or eternal damnation in hell, despite if we are believers now or not... what is for sure is that its our current spiritual status when we die that will determine where we go...

...unless your saying that those believing right now have been predestined and we are just fulfilling Gods will cause that would make sense, although that would def mean no time specifically on predestination... for ex: we must believe when we chose to believe that -that was the plan of predestination for us, and those that are saved later same for them...
Zacchaeus, I believe in assurance of salvation, but I don't hold to the same belief in predestination, that Calvinism presents. So, assurance of salvation, isn't exclusivly Calvinistic. Not that you're saying it is. :D
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine *

#114

Post by RickD » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:00 pm

Echoside wrote:
RickD wrote:
zacchaeus wrote:What if your a Calvinist or you believe in predestination and your not predestined for eternal life in Heaven but predestined for hell, yet you spend years defending the gospel of predestination and/or Calvinism? That would suck... :esurprised:
Zacchaeus, Don't forget that Calvinists believe in Christ, first and foremost. We can't forget that this topic is a discussion between believers, within the church. What one believes about predestination, is a non essential, as long as there is a belief in Christ.
In the context of Christians RickD I agree with you. But that's not the only audience that's spectating, I've got basically the same questions everyone else does.
Echo, I understand what you mean. The reason why I worded it that way, is because those that are arguing one way or the other, are Christians. I don't see non Christians arguing for a Christian belief.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine *

#115

Post by zacchaeus » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:11 pm

So you don't believe one can choose through repetitive sin (become reprobates) and choose to surrender their salvation? I know there are thread posts on this and I had made my first scenes there, but considering we are talking about predestination vs. freewill, and you don't believe in predestination, but you believe we have freewill choice to chose GOD and then we surrender our freewill as in its taken away, so we are in essence OSAS, and can never lose salvation even if we want to? I'm sorry but... all this stuff is crazy and confusing me. I feel like quitting. I was raised up with a very small spiritual influence that came from my grandparents who are very strict independent baptists, and I strayed away did my on thing for 24 years, had 3 kids out of wedlock, loss her to her cheating, I came back to Christ, got my kids back and now I've been walking with Christ for almost three years. And through all the junk of atheists, agnostics (my cousin), and my own questions, and things like this that seem to contradict, and so many divisions, and denominations, etc. I want to just quit...

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Re: Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine *

#116

Post by RickD » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:28 pm

zacchaeus, I can tell you what I believe. But, let me warn you, the topic of assurance of salvation, is pretty similar to this topic. In that, there's a whole spectrum of beliefs there, as well.
So you don't believe one can choose through repetitive sin (become reprobates) and choose to surrender their salvation?
Ephesians 1:11-14 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
I believe once God gives a believer the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, that believer is forever sealed in Christ. The Holy Spirit is given by God, as a pledge. A pledge, is a down payment, so to speak. God gives believers the Holy Spirit, as evidence, so we know God's promises of salvation are true. A true believer, sealed with the indwelling of the HS, will continue to sin, as long as he is in his mortal body. It's almost like an internal civil war. between the Holy Spirit, and our old self.

The apostle Paul wrote it this way in Romans 7:14-20:
14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
and you don't believe in predestination, but you believe we have freewill choice to chose GOD and then we surrender our freewill as in its taken away, so we are in essence OSAS, and can never lose salvation even if we want to?
Zacchaeus, I do believe in predestination. I just define the word "predestination" differently, than some others.
Philippians 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.
God finishes the work He started in the true believer, by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. God conforms us to the image of Christ. We become less, He becomes more.
I'm sorry but... all this stuff is crazy and confusing me.
Zacchaeus, please go to God with this. He will show you what you need to know. Do you spend time alone with God, reading the bible, and praying to Him?

Jesus says in Matthew 11:28-30 “Come to Me, all [a]who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

zacc, go to God with your fears, and concerns. He is faithful. Trust God.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


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Re: Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine *

#117

Post by Katabole » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:56 pm

Zacc, you asked, "Katabole, are you speaking of the preadamite world???"

Yes Zacc, I believe that predestination occurred in what you would call the pre-Adamite world. I call it, the first heaven and earth age. If you are not an OEC gap creationist, then what I explained may seem extremely foreign. I came to accept the gap creation position as being the best position to explain not only the origin of the universe but also predestination quite a few years ago and the church I am a member of teaches the three heaven and earth ages and all members of my church are OEC gap creationists. As I previously stated, I only understand the concept of predestination because I believe that there was an age (eon of time) before this present age. And I believe these three ages (the age that was, is and is to come) are described in 2Pet 3:5-13. 2Peter ch 3 is not speaking about Noah's flood but the flood that destroyed the first heaven and earth age due to Lucifer's rebellion as mentioned in Rev 12, Eze 28 and Isa 14. Otherwise, I would probably perceive that God shows favoritism by giving many free will but giving others a destiny. However, as Rick was kind enough to quote Ephesians 1:11 (KJV), I believe the predestination was God's purpose for those who fought against Lucifer in that first age because God deemed them worthy of presestination because they earned it.

This may help explain my creation position of the ages in more detail. It's a short discourse by Dr. E W Bullinger regarding the foundation of the world.

The Foundation of the World

http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append146.html

Do not let different views on topics in scripture sway your faith Zacc. Many of us have different views on many different things within the faith. I disagree with many things others accept as true and others disagree with me on many things I accept as being innerant. The main thing is, you believe in and worship Christ and that's good. :D
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Re: Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine *

#118

Post by zacchaeus » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:20 pm

Rick...
and whomever else may be interested

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=483675453542

This is more what I believe that should even tie in the very topic of this thread...

I shared this link before on another thread about salvation

I did write it a while ago, so, ignore typos and misspellings and even some of the wording, I should update and edit it...

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Re: Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine *

#119

Post by DannyM » Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:19 am

zacchaeus wrote:What if your a Calvinist or you believe in predestination and your not predestined for eternal life in Heaven but predestined for hell, yet you spend years defending the gospel of predestination and/or Calvinism? That would suck... :esurprised:
Given man's revelation and calling, how would that work?
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Re: Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine *

#120

Post by jlay » Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:24 pm

I think that is what he is asking.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

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