Free will and Omniscience

[RickD]

The answer you guys are giving will NOT work.

Will not work, for what?

[RickD]

The fact that God knows our entire life, including all the countless choices we make every day, has no bearing whatsoever, on our ability to make those choices. I'm not sure what the problem with this is?

[domokunrox]

It will not make sense to anyone who is intellectual. I assure you.

Again. Its like something straight out of a sci fi movie. An episode of Lost. Jesus owns a Delorean. God is an Elf in LOTR with the gift of foresight. It will do damage and possibly never be reversed. I assure you. Mainly because everything I just said is fictional and absurd ideas we came up with.

Here's another perspective.

We came into this world and we are lost without God. In fact, we will die if we don't reunite with him.

So for analogy purposes. God sent a savior and we're drowning. God did not simply stand there and say "keep swimming! You'll make it!". But because that ocean is sin, God had to throw us a lifesaver. That's Jesus and he yells over to us "Grab on! I'll pull you to shore!"

This is where we come along. It would be absolutely ABSURD to claim that God knew if we would grab the lifesaver or not and it would be even more absurd to claim God already knows if he pulled us to safety. Btw, pulling us to safety is heaven. Its not baptism. Baptism is the act of grabbing the lifesaver.

Consider this. We are free to grab the lifesaver if we want. Even if we do, we could do something absolutely idiotic and let it go before he pulls us to safety.

[RickD]

Dom, could you give me your definition of "predestination" ? I mean as it is biblically.

[B. W.]

…. This is where we come along. It would be absolutely ABSURD to claim that God knew if we would grab the lifesaver or not and it would be even more absurd to claim God already knows if he pulled us to safety.

Domokunrox, you have contradicted you own statement and, next, how does your statement line up with the verse from Roman 8 quoted below?

Consider this. We are free to grab the lifesaver if we want. Even if we do, we could do something absolutely idiotic and let it go before he pulls us to safety.

Romans 8:29, 30c, "Because those of whom he had knowledge before they came into existence, were marked out by him to be made like his Son, so that he might be the first among a band of brothers. And those who were marked out by him were named; and those who were named were given righteousness; and to those to whom he gave righteousness, in the same way he gave glory." BBE

Romans 8:29, 30c, "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." NASB
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[domokunrox]

Here's the problem, Rick.

Try telling a skeptic to define something. They don't know, and your could not help the process.

[RickD]

Here's the problem, Rick.

Try telling a skeptic to define something. They don't know, and your could not help the process.

Dom, answer my question about predestination, please.

[domokunrox]

You guys aren't getting it.

Paul wrote that. Not saying Paul isn't credible. That's not part of the gospel. Which is the main part.
predestination sounds like an insurance policy. Why do we need that? If we hold on, we will be pulled to safety! Is that not good enough?

[RickD]

You guys aren't getting it.

Paul wrote that. Not saying Paul isn't credible. That's not part of the gospel. Which is the main part.
predestination sounds like an insurance policy. Why do we need that? If we hold on, we will be pulled to safety! Is that not good enough?

Ouch! You're effectively saying that Paul is contradicting the gospel.
Ok, I'll play along, with you here. Define what you mean by "if we hold on".

[B. W.]

... But my question is, what God knows will happen, can that be changed?

What does the bible say on this matter?

Jer 18:7 Whenever I say anything about uprooting a nation or a kingdom, and smashing it and sending destruction on it;

Jer 18:8 If, in that very minute, that nation of which I was talking is turned away from its evil (twisted / maliciousness), my purpose of doing evil (destruction) to them will be changed.

Jer 18:9 And whenever I say anything about building up a nation or a kingdom, and planting it;
Jer 18:10 If, in that very minute, it does evil in my eyes, going against my orders, then my good purpose, which I said I would do for them, will be changed.

Jer 18:11 Now, then, say to the men of Judah and to the people of Jerusalem, This is what the Lord has said: See, I am forming an evil (destructive) thing against you, and designing a design against you: let every man come back now from his evil (Twisted / malicious) way, and let your ways and your doings be changed for the better.

Jer 18:12 But they will say, There is no hope: we will go on in our designs, and every one of us will do what he is moved by the pride of his evil (twisted) heart to do. BBE

In these verses, I added in the original language word meanings based on contextual use of the word evil to help the reader understand what is being said better. In this he will change, but God foreknowing the final result as verse 12 states, what choice does God have but to send harsh corrective measures due to their wrapped heart – See Jer 17:9, 10c and Job 34:21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29c
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Also for Dom--God was tossing them a life line and they were foreknown to reject that...

[domokunrox]

Ouch! You're effectively saying that Paul is contradicting the gospel.
Ok, I'll play along, with you here. Define what you mean by "if we hold on".

No I'm not!

You mind quoting red letters to back that up?

I'll play along with you, too.

I am a Christian, I was baptized 8 years ago.

Am I predestined? Will I ABSOLUTELY make it to heaven?

[narnia4]

Ok, this is getting pretty complicated, but I think I at least get what you're saying neo. But now I have to disagree, largely because God is outside time. If God only saw INTO the future, I would agree with you... but with God being outside of time, you could almost say that he is IN the past, present, and future.

Using my example, let's say that the programmer made the AI pick one of those three paths randomly. If he did not KNOW the future in an intimate sense, then knowing what path the AI would choose would mean that he chose the path for him. But what if he DID make it random, but he also had the DeLorean that I saw mentioned earlier. The programmer could know the AI has a "choice", travel forward in time, see the path the AI chose, and he would not have caused that event.

And I think I still have a point that free will doesn't have to be free will in a libertarian sense. Even us humans can sometimes have a pretty good idea what a person is going to choose. God can know a man's heart, even know what a man's heart will be, and free will can still exist.

[Byblos]

God can know a man's heart, even know what a man's heart will be, and free will can still exist.

I think this sums it up very nicely. God knows our hearts from before creation and knows how this (human) book will end before it was written. God knew Pharaoh would harden his own heart so God hardened Pharaoh's heart even more and used him to accomplish His purpose. Think of it this way, life is a very complicated, intricate maze full of possible choices but at the end of the maze there are only two exists. God already knows which exist each of us will end up at but the myriad of choices we take to get to the end are up to us. God, knowing which exit each of us will end up at, can influence our choices along the way. The entire trip from beginning to end might seem very long to us (6,000 or billions upon billions of years and counting) but to a timeless God it is virtually, no actually, instantaneous (if that even means anything at all outside of time).

[RickD]

I think this sums it up very nicely. God knows our hearts from before creation and knows how this (human) book will end before it was written. God knew Pharaoh would harden his own heart so God hardened Pharaoh's heart even more and used him to accomplish His purpose

I think this is the best explanation I've read so far. This fits perfectly with the message of the entire bible, when taken in proper context.

Bravo, Byblos.

[neo-x]

Ok, this is getting pretty complicated, but I think I at least get what you're saying neo. But now I have to disagree, largely because God is outside time. If God only saw INTO the future, I would agree with you... but with God being outside of time, you could almost say that he is IN the past, present, and future.

Narnia, I respect your reservations, but just to explain things, God being outside of time has no bearing on my argument. He is outside time he knows what he knows, but it is not the past or present that matter here, we are talking about future. And I do not see, how God being outside of time affects what I stated.

Using my example, let's say that the programmer made the AI pick one of those three paths randomly. If he did not KNOW the future in an intimate sense, then knowing what path the AI would choose would mean that he chose the path for him. But what if he DID make it random, but he also had the DeLorean that I saw mentioned earlier. The programmer could know the AI has a "choice", travel forward in time, see the path the AI chose, and he would not have caused that event.

Don't want to sound like being ignorant here...I appreciate your response and I think this is a good discussion.
Yes but does that work in this scenario? Lets say, God made us, gave us random choice to choose among the three paths and then he saw the future and saw what we chose, here my original argument kicks in again, as soon as he sees the future it can't change. Since you would agree that unlike the programmer, God knows it from eternity. You see the programmer isn't omniscient; he can travel to future to see, but God is omniscient at all times, isn't he? The very moment there is God, he knows everything already, he doesn't have to think and figure it out does he? You see my point. The basic glitch in the programmer example is that the programmer sees the future only after he designed the AI to pick randomly, In the case of God, he would always know. To put it in mortal terms, the very moment God existed, He knew everything(just used these words because that is the extent I can put it). So when he knew, it's already there.

And I think I still have a point that free will doesn't have to be free will in a libertarian sense. Even us humans can sometimes have a pretty good idea what a person is going to choose. God can know a man's heart, even know what a man's heart will be, and free will can still exist.

Narnia, I see your point and partially I do agree with you that free will doesn't have to be free will in a libertarian sense and also that determinism is not the answer as some have stated. Yet some of these things are quite confusing and I am certainly no expert on doing this. But some of the points just stuck in head and I am just trying to resolve those. May be some of you have already done that. I am still not fully convinced, but I will think about this. Thank you.

but just to clear out a thing, if some of you got the wrong impression. I never said God made us do things or God can't know the future and that his omniscient attribute is not accurate. That was not my objection.

Dom

Is it non essential to salvation? Yes
Is it non essential to apologetics? No! Its a big problem! This is all that I really wanted to convey out to you guys.

This was basicly one of my points, I see this an important problem in apologetics, that certainly needs a healthy study to be handled correctly.

Rick, I wish I could understand it in a simpler way. It is at times, lol. But I do love a good discussion.

Brother Danny,

But when I see verse 12's second part, it makes me think that God did not see beyond Abraham's choice until Abraham actually did it or else this whole things become just a formality.

Did God foreknow He would test Abraham?

No, I do not think so. It would only be true if Abraham qualified for that test in the first place. Not trying to put a limit on God's ability to foresee, here. Just saying that some of God's actions are limited or constrained by human factor. I think he would first see what we would do before doing something back. I think God holds back and wait for us to finish our part, so that he can likewise do his.