Free will and Omniscience

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Re: Free will and Omniscience

#61

Post by Byblos » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:14 pm

neo-x wrote:No, I do not think so. It would only be true if Abraham qualified for that test in the first place. Not trying to put a limit on God's ability to foresee, here. Just saying that some of God's actions are limited or constrained by human factor. I think he would first see what we would do before doing something back. I think God holds back and wait for us to finish our part, so that he can likewise do his.
This would mean God had to wait for the fall of man to formulate his redemptive plan, which would make him the god of contingencies (or more aptly the god of oops). To say the least of it utterly contradicting scripture which states emphatically that the redemptive plan was put in place from before creation. Between the two choices I would take Calvinism any day.
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Re: Free will and Omniscience

#62

Post by RickD » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:37 pm

Byblos wrote:
neo-x wrote:No, I do not think so. It would only be true if Abraham qualified for that test in the first place. Not trying to put a limit on God's ability to foresee, here. Just saying that some of God's actions are limited or constrained by human factor. I think he would first see what we would do before doing something back. I think God holds back and wait for us to finish our part, so that he can likewise do his.
This would mean God had to wait for the fall of man to formulate his redemptive plan, which would make him the god of contingencies (or more aptly the god of oops). To say the least of it utterly contradicting scripture which states emphatically that the redemptive plan was put in place from before creation. Between the two choices I would take Calvinism any day.
Between the two choices I would take Calvinism any day
What do you mean by that? Calvinism, in what sense? And, what is the 2nd choice?

You all are confusing me. There are too many ism's. y#-o
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Re: Free will and Omniscience

#63

Post by RickD » Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:18 pm

predestination sounds like an insurance policy. Why do we need that? If we hold on, we will be pulled to safety! Is that not good enough?
No Dom, it's not good enough. What do you mean by holding on? How will we ever know if we've done enough to know if we're saved? We would live our lives trying to hold on. Trying to keep faithful. Not sure if we've done enough to keep eternal life.
This is a huge, unnecessary burden for anyone to carry. We are kept eternally secure in Christ, by God's power, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Once we realize we are secure in Christ, by God's power, not our own striving or works, then we are free to live life as one accepted by God. Instead of one striving for God's approval. Then we can live a life led by the Holy Spirit, instead of trying to strive, by our fleshly nature, for God's approval.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Free will and Omniscience

#64

Post by narnia4 » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:28 pm

The hard part with illustrations is that there isn't anything quite like God. So something that only God can do, how exactly can you explain it? I guess the human CAN'T explain it because he doesn't understand.
neo-x wrote:
Using my example, let's say that the programmer made the AI pick one of those three paths randomly. If he did not KNOW the future in an intimate sense, then knowing what path the AI would choose would mean that he chose the path for him. But what if he DID make it random, but he also had the DeLorean that I saw mentioned earlier. The programmer could know the AI has a "choice", travel forward in time, see the path the AI chose, and he would not have caused that event.
Yes but does that work in this scenario? Lets say, God made us, gave us random choice to choose among the three paths and then he saw the future and saw what we chose, here my original argument kicks in again, as soon as he sees the future it can't change. Since you would agree that unlike the programmer, God knows it from eternity. You see the programmer isn't omniscient; he can travel to future to see, but God is omniscient at all times, isn't he? The very moment there is God, he knows everything already, he doesn't have to think and figure it out does he? You see my point. The basic glitch in the programmer example is that the programmer sees the future only after he designed the AI to pick randomly, In the case of God, he would always know. To put it in mortal terms, the very moment God existed, He knew everything(just used these words because that is the extent I can put it). So when he knew, it's already there.
One idea, as I mentioned I'm no expert either.

The reason God being outside of time is the crucial part is because you could just as well say that God doesn't just KNOW the future, but that he is IN the future because he's outside of time. Past, present, future, does it make any difference to God? God knows what you're going to eat for breakfast tomorrow morning because he's already seen you eat breakfast tomorrow morning and he's seeing you eat breakfast tomorrow morning. But I don't know that that shows that you aren't going to make the choice yourself.
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Re: Free will and Omniscience

#65

Post by neo-x » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:33 pm

This would mean God had to wait for the fall of man to formulate his redemptive plan, which would make him the god of contingencies (or more aptly the god of oops). To say the least of it utterly contradicting scripture which states emphatically that the redemptive plan was put in place from before creation. Between the two choices I would take Calvinism any day.
No Byblos, if you read my posts from the beginning, You will find that I maintained that the only time when God does not see the future, are the human choices that are not part of "big plans or prophecies" or anything that is important or predestined to happen, and must be done. In the case of fall and redemption God made that redemptive plan before ahead of time. My position does not make God, a God of contingencies.

But to put a note on the side, God's plan can not over ride free will, in the sense where a certain decision for one's own self is concerned. In the case of Abraham, had Abraham refused to offer Isaac, what do you think that would make him? The Bible says God tested him. There are two outcomes and both depend on Abraham. If there is only one outcome then Abraham would have no choice. So I do not think that free will makes God, a God of contingencies. God's omniscient and free will have to go hand by hand, side by side. That's the beauty of it, guys. One can't over throw the other.

And by the way Byb, I didn't get this part
Between the two choices I would take Calvinism any day.
y:-/
Last edited by neo-x on Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


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Re: Free will and Omniscience

#66

Post by neo-x » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:43 pm

No Dom, it's not good enough. What do you mean by holding on? How will we ever know if we've done enough to know if we're saved? We would live our lives trying to hold on. Trying to keep faithful. Not sure if we've done enough to keep eternal life.
This is a huge, unnecessary burden for anyone to carry. We are kept eternally secure in Christ, by God's power, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Once we realize we are secure in Christ, by God's power, not our own striving or works, then we are free to live life as one accepted by God. Instead of one striving for God's approval. Then we can live a life led by the Holy Spirit, instead of trying to strive, by our fleshly nature, for God's approval.
One point though, our eternal security in Christ does not make us automatically accepted to God "under any circumstances". I think that is what is Dom trying to say. That we have to hold on to our faith as well. Because if we walk away in an ungodly life (not talking about apostasy), we are not secure.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: Free will and Omniscience

#67

Post by neo-x » Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:48 pm

What does the bible say on this matter?

Jer 18:7 Whenever I say anything about uprooting a nation or a kingdom, and smashing it and sending destruction on it;

Jer 18:8 If, in that very minute, that nation of which I was talking is turned away from its evil (twisted / maliciousness), my purpose of doing evil (destruction) to them will be changed.

Jer 18:9 And whenever I say anything about building up a nation or a kingdom, and planting it;
Jer 18:10 If, in that very minute, it does evil in my eyes, going against my orders, then my good purpose, which I said I would do for them, will be changed.

Jer 18:11 Now, then, say to the men of Judah and to the people of Jerusalem, This is what the Lord has said: See, I am forming an evil (destructive) thing against you, and designing a design against you: let every man come back now from his evil (Twisted / malicious) way, and let your ways and your doings be changed for the better.

Jer 18:12 But they will say, There is no hope: we will go on in our designs, and every one of us will do what he is moved by the pride of his evil (twisted) heart to do. BBE

In these verses, I added in the original language word meanings based on contextual use of the word evil to help the reader understand what is being said better. In this he will change, but God foreknowing the final result as verse 12 states, what choice does God have but to send harsh corrective measures due to their wrapped heart – See Jer 17:9, 10c and Job 34:21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29c

Point noted B.W, by the way, what I would like to see, does this happen always? I don' think it does. But I can see your view point and from there, yeah it does kind of makes sense. Thank you for explaining, brother.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: Free will and Omniscience

#68

Post by neo-x » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:10 pm

I think this sums it up very nicely. God knows our hearts from before creation and knows how this (human) book will end before it was written. God knew Pharaoh would harden his own heart so God hardened Pharaoh's heart even more and used him to accomplish His purpose. Think of it this way, life is a very complicated, intricate maze full of possible choices but at the end of the maze there are only two exists. God already knows which exist each of us will end up at but the myriad of choices we take to get to the end are up to us. God, knowing which exit each of us will end up at, can influence our choices along the way. The entire trip from beginning to end might seem very long to us (6,000 or billions upon billions of years and counting) but to a timeless God it is virtually, no actually, instantaneous (if that even means anything at all outside of time)
Now the more I think about it, it sounds as plausible as my view.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: Free will and Omniscience

#69

Post by neo-x » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:15 pm

One idea, as I mentioned I'm no expert either.

The reason God being outside of time is the crucial part is because you could just as well say that God doesn't just KNOW the future, but that he is IN the future because he's outside of time. Past, present, future, does it make any difference to God? God knows what you're going to eat for breakfast tomorrow morning because he's already seen you eat breakfast tomorrow morning and he's seeing you eat breakfast tomorrow morning. But I don't know that that shows that you aren't going to make the choice yourself.
It is a great idea. I like it, it solves all the problems that I listed at once. I agree. I think the problem is, my view, whenever is applied in the sense that God foresees the future in all possible choices, the problem I have been asking arises. I can't help it. I look at it from the my side and the flaw exists. Your's makes sense when I look at it from your side, but I guess there are flaws in all human perceptions, mine as well as yours. I guess it is just a matter of perspective, of how you look at it. And may be how I look at it, is wrong. May be, who knows? but its good that we disscussed this, makes things easy to understand once all brainstorming is done.

But what you said poses a few very nice questions

for example, does the future really exists as in the sense the "present" exists. Saying God just doesn't know the future, he is in the future, makes future, another reality. And one may ask, does the future exists in material form? Or if God is in the past the same time, does the past exist in material form, like the present? What do you think?
The hard part with illustrations is that there isn't anything quite like God. So something that only God can do, how exactly can you explain it? I guess the human CAN'T explain it because he doesn't understand.
Indeed!
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: Free will and Omniscience

#70

Post by Grizz_1 » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:00 am

I like the way C S Lewis explains it.

"Almost certainly God is not in Time. His life does not consist of moments following one another. If a million people are praying to Him at ten-thirty tonight, He need not listen to them all in that one little snippet which we call ten-thirty. Ten-thirty—and every other moment from the beginning of the world—is always the Present for Him. If you like to put it that way, He has all eternity in which to listen to the split second of prayer put up by a pilot as his plane crashes in flames. That is difficult, I know. Let me try to give something, not the same, but a bit like it. Suppose I am writing a novel. I write ‘Mary laid down her work; next moment came a knock at the door!’ For Mary who has to live in the imaginary time of my story there is no interval between putting down the work and hearing the knock. But I, who am Mary’s maker, do not live in that imaginary time at all. Between writing the first half of that sentence and the second, I might sit down for three hours and think steadily about Mary. I could think about Mary as if she were the only character in the book and for as long as I pleased, and the hours I spent in doing so would not appear in Mary’s time (the time inside the story) at all. This is not a perfect illustration, of course. But it may give just a glimpse of what I believe to be the truth. God is not hurried along in the Time-stream of this universe any more than an author is hurried along in the imaginary time of his own novel. He has infinite attention to spare for each one of us. He does not have to deal with us in the mass. You are as much alone with Him as if you were the only being He had ever created. When Christ died, He died for you individually just as much as if you had been the only man in the world. The way in which my illustration breaks down is this. In it the author gets out of one Time-series (that of the novel) only by going into another Time-series (the real one). But God, I believe, does not live in a Time-series at all. His life is not dribbled out moment by moment like ours: with Him it is, so to speak, still 1920 and already 1960. For His life is Himself. If you picture Time as a straight line along which we have to travel, then you must picture God as the whole page on which the line is drawn. We come to the parts of the line one by one: we have to leave A behind before we get to B, and cannot reach C until we leave B behind. God, from above or outside or all round, contains the whole line, and sees it all.

Another difficulty we get if we believe God to be in time is this. Everyone who believes in God at all believes that He knows what you and I are going to do tomorrow. But if He knows I am going to do so-and-so, how can I be free to do otherwise? Well, here once again, the difficulty comes from thinking that God is progressing along the Time-line like us: the only difference being that He can see ahead and we cannot. Well, if that were true, if God foresaw our acts, it would be very hard to understand how we could be free not to do them. But suppose God is outside and above the Time-line. In that case, what we call ‘tomorrow’ is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call ‘today’. All the days are ‘Now’ for Him. He does not remember you doing things yesterday; He simply sees you doing them, because, though you have lost yesterday, He has not. He does not ‘foresee’ you doing things tomorrow; He simply sees you doing them: because, though tomorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him. You never supposed that your actions at this moment were any less free because God knows what you are doing. Well, He knows your tomorrow’s actions in just the same way—because He is already in tomorrow and can simply watch you. In a sense, He does not know your action till you have done it: but then the moment at which you have done it is already ‘Now’ for Him."

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Re: Free will and Omniscience

#71

Post by DannyM » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:20 am

neo-x wrote:
No Dom, it's not good enough. What do you mean by holding on? How will we ever know if we've done enough to know if we're saved? We would live our lives trying to hold on. Trying to keep faithful. Not sure if we've done enough to keep eternal life.
This is a huge, unnecessary burden for anyone to carry. We are kept eternally secure in Christ, by God's power, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Once we realize we are secure in Christ, by God's power, not our own striving or works, then we are free to live life as one accepted by God. Instead of one striving for God's approval. Then we can live a life led by the Holy Spirit, instead of trying to strive, by our fleshly nature, for God's approval.
One point though, our eternal security in Christ does not make us automatically accepted to God "under any circumstances". I think that is what is Dom trying to say. That we have to hold on to our faith as well. Because if we walk away in an ungodly life (not talking about apostasy), we are not secure.
Brother, Yes we are secure. This was shown in the secured salvation thread.
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Re: Free will and Omniscience

#72

Post by Byblos » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:24 am

DannyM wrote:Brother, Yes we are secure. This was shown in the secured salvation thread.
Oh I beg to differ ... :poke: :guns: :duel: :nunchaku:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Free will and Omniscience

#73

Post by DannyM » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:29 am

Brother Neo
neo-x wrote:No, I do not think so.
Then God is not omniscient.
It would only be true if Abraham qualified for that test in the first place.
What do you mean by this?
Not trying to put a limit on God's ability to foresee, here.
I'm afraid this is exactly what you are doing.
Just saying that some of God's actions are limited or constrained by human factor. I think he would first see what we would do before doing something back. I think God holds back and wait for us to finish our part, so that he can likewise do his.
This is a god of contingencies, Neo. Have you noticed, Bro, that throughout this thread you have gone all round the houses trying to defend an absolute free will? To the point of making God the god of contingencies. If God is omniscient, there is nothing He cannot see. Forget middle knowledge and counterfactuals - God knows ALL there is to know.
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Re: Free will and Omniscience

#74

Post by jlay » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:51 am

If God is constrained it is because He is constrained by Himself and His own nature.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

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Re: Free will and Omniscience

#75

Post by DannyM » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:56 am

Right. Plus, can God do things which He did not know He was going to do?
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