SALVATION ISSUE

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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Re: SALVATION ISSUE

#46

Post by FearlessLlearsy » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:27 am

I believe it is not enough to say that you have faith. One who claims to have faith but does not testify to it is on shaky ground.
DannyM wrote:I believe all works are completely disregarded when it comes to salvation
The original post was not about: are actions required to have salvation. That is a totally different issue. I was asking one who CLAIMS to have faith in Jesus Christ, but has not change of heart in his daily life, is that person saved?

The way i see it, many people who claim to have faith never had it in the first place.
Question: A christian who supposedly accepted Christ in his heart, according to Jlay, he would be sealed in the HS? Right? What if he then becomes an Atheist and dies one, so you mean he's going to Heaven?

to Jlay: here would be the ultimate test of your standpoint. As a firm believer, go and live on a terrible lifestyle. GO and practice every sin you know(ignoring the Law), till your death. See if you get to Heaven. If you do you were right, if you dont, you were not.
Now, clearly, your not going to do it, because you know better than that.
Live a life with no FEAR, for the battle is already won. The Devil and his minions only cry in agonizing pain, realizing the victory is OURS.

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Re: SALVATION ISSUE

#47

Post by DannyM » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:04 am

That's a good angle, Bart! I think when we get bogged down with 'works' we lose focus of the fact that we are actually saved - Full Stop. This type of discussion undermines the fact of Christ's once-for-all atonement for our sins. Christ threw 'works' as a means to salvation out of the window. The wonderful thìng here - and don't say it too loud! - is that this freedom in Christ takes away all the worry about our own doomed efforts, and we can finally walk 'after the spirit'. Romans 8:1
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Re: SALVATION ISSUE

#48

Post by neo-x » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:51 am

@ Bart, thnx for putting in some moderation and helping out with the basic difference in mentality. It helped.

@Jilay, You haven't answered my questions, anyways I see there is a difference of approach to the scripture here and no matter how we go about it, we will end again right here. So we don't need to go beyond this, as a senior brother in Christ I respect your zeal and opinion and I actually admire the way you do it. I do not however agree with you on this. To me you can throw works out the window as long as you know you can't claim anything on it, but you can never throw them out because of the idea that you are guaranteed heaven - to me that is just plain wrong teaching. In my POV it is a very soft stance about Christ's atonement and it gives people generally a more open license to sin and be called 'Christians" by name, the bible provides evidence for otherwise and it doesn't block the road to comeback, it actually tightens the daily walk of a Christians in God, in other words the concept of a "lukewarm" Christian is not encouraged.

@ Danny,
The wonderful thìng here - and don't say it too loud! - is that this freedom in Christ takes away all the worry about our own doomed efforts, and we can finally walk 'after the spirit'.
Praise God for that, :amen: I agree with you on this 100% ( ;) for the rest I maintain my stance). One should never worry about how to please God with works alone.

@ Fearless
The original post was not about: are actions required to have salvation. That is a totally different issue. I was asking one who CLAIMS to have faith in Jesus Christ, but has not change of heart in his daily life, is that person saved?
My argument was actually one way to put what you wrote, living a godless life whether you are a Christan or not makes a huge question on salvation. Any ways, for me this arguments rests here, I maintain, salvation is free but you have to keep it that way by walking a walk of active faith in God and not just words alone.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: SALVATION ISSUE

#49

Post by DannyM » Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:13 pm

Fearless, your hypotheticals are for God to judge and not us. What we do know is: To them which are in Christ there is no condemnation. The first theologian tells us this. We now walk after the spirit. We will stumble and fall. Paul is also clear about this. But we walk after the spirit and are slowly or quickly renewed. Those truly in Christ will become renewed in time. It is not for you or I to tell men that they need merits to secure for them what is already secured in the scriptures, lest we make ourselves super-apostles.
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Re: SALVATION ISSUE

#50

Post by FearlessLlearsy » Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:17 pm

I agree with Neo-x on his conclusion,

true Faith in Christ = Change of Heart, Change of life (gradual or spontaneous), a Love for God and your neighbors

Claiming Faith in Jesus Christ but is not testified = ????....... Shaky faith at the least, No real Faith at the worst
Live a life with no FEAR, for the battle is already won. The Devil and his minions only cry in agonizing pain, realizing the victory is OURS.

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Re: SALVATION ISSUE

#51

Post by FearlessLlearsy » Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:21 pm

It is not for you or I to tell men that they need merits to secure for them what is already secured in the scriptures, lest we make ourselves super-apostles.
Again Danny, Good work= security in Heaven is not my stance. Please, understand that what I am saying is that a person who puts his Faith in Jesus Christ should be able to testify for it
Live a life with no FEAR, for the battle is already won. The Devil and his minions only cry in agonizing pain, realizing the victory is OURS.

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Re: SALVATION ISSUE

#52

Post by zacchaeus » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:16 pm

To Whom it may show TRUTH!!!

People say they cannot believe that God would send someone to hell if they are a Christian, a born again confessor of Jesus Christ who has repented of his sins, if that Christian was to make a conscious choice to do drugs, get drunk, and cheat on his wife by paying for a hooker; if he died during or right after the acts of those sins. They say that God is all knowing and knowing the time of death of someone, that if He chooses the death of a Christian during that period of time the sin is committed or shortly after, before the Christian has a chance to repent; then God is unreasonable. They say this would be so if He chose a time of their death after ones rejection, well then the same could be said for that of anyone who dies at a time before they ever accept Him. Is that unfair? Absolutely not!!! They must be forgetting that God is faithful and just (1 John 1:9), therefore He would never not give us a chance or opportunity to repent. In fact He gives us chance after chance and opportunity after opportunity. God is all knowing and we are free moral agents, and we can also choose our own death (suicide). We also have a promise to live long if we are obedient in honoring our mother and Father (Exodus 20:12). So He is all knowing and knows when we will die and that we must die at least once, but does not give us a time or appoint a time; or we could not take our life shorting it or make it longer by receiving His promise. Furthermore, being a Christian and to be Christ-like the question comes to mind why the extremities of the hypothetical question? We should be drawing nigh unto Him (James 4:8), staying away from evil (1 Corinth. 6:18, 1 Thess. 5:22), and being a new creature in Him (2 Corinth. 5:17, Gal. 6:15). Furthermore, the debate against (OSAS) could be made from the age of innocence or accountability stance; in that we are covered and protected (saved) from birth until the age of accountability. That sounds a lot like losing your salvation to me; for we once were saved and now were not, and now we have to make a free moral agent choice to accept and re-receive Him.



Also note that your period of grace does not come after the act of sin but before the act of sin is ever committed. When temptation arises and your thoughts are towards the act of whatever the sin is that is being tempted, you actually debate with yourself and wonder/ponder what will happen if you do this; knowing that its wrong. The period of grace is when your conviction (The Holy Spirit) is warning you not to do something; you can both be obedient and heed to Him, or you can be disobedient and sin “choosing” to blow the opportunity or period of grace God has allotted you. Again, it’s evident one has chance after chance and opportunity after opportunity to come to know Him and call upon His name. If we die and are not saved, deny or reject our salvation that is in no way Gods fault. He has been more than patient and given you second, third, and fourth chances and opportunities.



Again, I don't think you can just lose your salvation, but I know you can walk away from it, I did it. There is no one or two sins which will make you lose your salvation, but sin is the symptom of a deeper problem of faith. If we sin and don't confess it and turn from it, then our love and our faith will grow cold and we will turn from the Lord. We don't lose our salvation, we choose to give it back by denying Him in our lives. Salvation is contingent upon confessing and repenting. I believe our salvation is a relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ. I believe we all stumble at times and sin. I also believe that when we sin the Holy Spirit convicts us and draws us back to a closer walk. If we confess our sin we repair our relationship and everything is okay, but if we refuse to repent and confess and continue to sin our relationship will deteriorate, at some point we grow cold and our relationship is ruined. Paul called this turning from the faith, shipwrecked faith, etc. by rejecting the truth. Paul mentions people who have wandered from faith. Again you can't leave something you never had. Peter warns against falling from your secure position. How is that possible? Was it not secure in the first place? No, what Peter is saying is what I am saying you are as secure as you want to be, but if you are not on your guard you might be carried away, or wander from the faith, or shipwreck your faith, or fall from your secure position. Paul even said if we don't hold fast then we have believed in vain, yet you say that all it takes is to believe, and how can one believe in vain if he in fact has never believed.-ref: Dan Corner





A quick look at the Prodigal Son...

This parable shows a couple of things. First it is possible for a son to leave the family. Second when a son does leave he is considered "dead" and "lost" but when he comes back he is considered "alive again" and "found." I've had people like you (OSAS) try to say that this son only lost his reward, but that he was still part of the family. Their point is that a Christian can be out of fellowship with God, but there is no danger of them being punished in hell for eternity. That is not what the plain reading of this parable shows. It shows that the son was lost and dead and that only after he came back was he again alive and found. Also notice that the father in the parable does not go after the son. He does run out to meet him when the son, himself comes back. This also is important in two aspects. First the father let the son go and did not go after him, it had to be the son's "decision" to come back. However, when the son does come back the father runs out to meet him. This might not mean much to us in our culture but in the middle-east this is something that is not dignified for a man to do. Yet the father did it, because he loved his son.



The word death applied to man in Scripture means separation from realizing God’s purpose for which we were created. Speaking of logic, one can logically substitute the word separation for death in every scripture where it is used. Physical death is the separation of the inner man from the outer man, the soul and spirit from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of man from God because of SIN. One spiritually dead can be alive physically (Mt. 8:22, Col. 2:14, 1 Tim. 5:6) or he can be dead physically alive in hell conscious in the soul and spirit. Second death: Eternal death means the second and eternal separation from God in the lake of fire (Rev. 2:11, 20:6, 14, 21:8). Men merit hell, but not eternal life!



Dake’s annotated reference bible KJV: “Penalty for sin”



The penalty for sin was eternal death or eternal separation from God in hell. Had it been physical death, every man would be automatically justified in the sight of God when he died physically. With the penalty thus paid, God could not punish the sinner any further than physical death. Such death would be the means of justification and the door to heaven; but this could not be. Some who die physically will be saved and others will be lost; so the penalty could not be physical death. Neither could it be spiritual death, which is the state of man in sin. If so, then all who commit sin would automatically be justified in the sight of God. This would make committing sin the penalty for committing sin, which is ridiculous. It would mean that all who commit sin would be saved and go to heaven. This would guarantee eternal life for all men, for all have sinned (Rom. 3:23). It would make the salvation of souls foolish and unnecessary. Furthermore, it would make the death of Christ unnecessary, for all men were sinners before He came. The real penalty for sin, therefore, could not be physical or spiritual death, but eternal death or separation from God. Physical death is the result of spiritual and eternal death. Eternal death is the penalty for spiritual death for committing sin (Eph. 2:1-9)

We get eternal life now and keep it forever if we meet the conditions, but it does not become an unforfeitable eternal possession until we “enter into” it (Mt. 7:13, 18:8-9, 19:17, Rom. 6:22), “receive it” (Rom. 6:23, Jas. 1:12, 1 Pet. 1:13, Rev. 2:10), “reap it” (Gal. 6:7-8), and “inherit it” in the world to come (Mt. 19:27-29, Mk. 10:28-30, Lk. 18:28-30), and at the “end” of this life.



Man Placed on Probation (Gen. 2:16-17). Man was created a free moral agent, and not a robot, and for this cause man had to be tested to see if he would remain true to God before he would be placed into an eternal responsibility that God had in mind for him, but Adam, as all other men, fell short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:29). Before man could put forth his hand, and eat of the tree of life, and live forever, God sent him out from the Garden, and away from the Tree of Life. (Gen. 3:22-24), the test for man in innocence was not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.



Man is a free moral agent (Rev. 22:17). If man were not a free moral agent, God would be entirely responsible for all sin, the effects of sin, rebellion, sickness, and the damnation of men, demons, and angles. Man has no choice about coming into the world but after he is here and old enough to be responsible, he is held accountable for his salvation or damnation (Mk. 16:15-16, Lk. 13:3, 5). Man has his own will to exercise in this matter (Jn. 3:16, 6:37, 7:17, Rev. 22:17). It is God’s will that all men who “will” to be, shall be saved (1 Tim. 2:4, 2 Pet. 3:9, Rev. 22:17). Promises are given to men upon the basis of their choice (Mt. 16:24-25, Mk. 3:35, 16:16, Jn. 3:16, 5:40, 7:17, 9:31, 12:26). In over 4,000 scriptures where “choose”, “will”, and other words expressing will power are used, not one suggests that God forces any man to accept Him and do His will. Man’s relationship with God is entirely on a voluntary basis (Mk. 16:16, Jn. 3:16, 7:17, 1 Pet. 5:2). No man recognizing that endless decisions are necessary to daily life can deny the fact of free acts and conduct, for he knows he has freedom of action-moral action-concerning right and wrong, and that he is responsible to God for his every act. If one can deny these facts, he can deny his very existence and prove it on the same basis he tries to prove that he is not a free moral agent. That he is and that he is free to choose his own destiny and daily moral actions are facts known to sane beings. Note some prophesies in (Heb. 10:26-39). Also, why fear and tremble if there is absolutely no possibility of a fall and a failure (Phil. 2:12, 1 Cor. 9:27, 10:12-14, Heb. 6:4-9, 10:26-39, 2 Pet. 2:20-22)? Suppose one will not obey in working out His own salvation, will God continue to work in him when man refuses to permit Him? Man’s power to will and to do as he pleases should not be puzzling. Such power comes from God but the use of it lies with man. One, who will not use this power to work out His salvation, will be held responsible. All men posses the power but all do not use it (Jn. 3:16-20, Mk. 16:15-16, 1 Jn. 1:9, Rev. 22:17)



(Rev. 3:5) Here Christ promises not to blot the name out of the book of life of any man who will obey, be watchful (v. 2), strengthen the things that remain, remember your teaching (v. 3), Hold fast (v. 3, Heb. 3:6), and most important and key to salvation, repent (v. 3, 19. Rev. 2:5, 16, 21, 22). What if some should refuse to obey these commands, would their names not be blotted out? If we say such is impossible we accuse God of using vain threats on His people. He definitely promised Moses concerning any man who sinned, HIM WILL I BLOT OUT OF MY BOOK (Ex. 32:32-33). The psalmist by the Holy Ghost prayed that God would blot out the names of Judas and all like him (Ps. 69:25-28 with Acts 1:20). In (Rev. 22:18-19) Christ again threatens to take the names of men out of the book of life if they take anything away from the words of the book of this prophecy.

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Re: SALVATION ISSUE

#53

Post by neo-x » Sun May 01, 2011 1:44 am

Welcome to the forum Zacchaeus, good to have you in the discussion.
Again, I don't think you can just lose your salvation, but I know you can walk away from it, I did it. There is no one or two sins which will make you lose your salvation, but sin is the symptom of a deeper problem of faith. If we sin and don't confess it and turn from it, then our love and our faith will grow cold and we will turn from the Lord. We don't lose our salvation, we choose to give it back by denying Him in our lives. Salvation is contingent upon confessing and repenting. I believe our salvation is a relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ. I believe we all stumble at times and sin. I also believe that when we sin the Holy Spirit convicts us and draws us back to a closer walk. If we confess our sin we repair our relationship and everything is okay, but if we refuse to repent and confess and continue to sin our relationship will deteriorate, at some point we grow cold and our relationship is ruined. Paul called this turning from the faith, shipwrecked faith, etc. by rejecting the truth. Paul mentions people who have wandered from faith. Again you can't leave something you never had. Peter warns against falling from your secure position. How is that possible? Was it not secure in the first place? No, what Peter is saying is what I am saying you are as secure as you want to be, but if you are not on your guard you might be carried away, or wander from the faith, or shipwreck your faith, or fall from your secure position.
Very well said, Zacchaeus. Salvation does depend on our very walk with God. Continuous sinning without the heart to repent will lead us away from the Kingdom of God and eternal life, rendering our salvation null and void. It is very thoughtful of you to present your point in such detail having incorporated a lot of scriptural evidence, God bless you.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: SALVATION ISSUE

#54

Post by DannyM » Sun May 01, 2011 8:21 am

Neo, if salvation depended on anything then it wouldn't be a free gift. There's a lot of double-speak going on here, bro. You can't have it both ways.
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Re: SALVATION ISSUE

#55

Post by MarcusOfLycia » Sun May 01, 2011 9:32 am

The question becomes, if one can 'walk away from Salvation', was God lying when He said He'd never forsake us? I mean, is it really 'us' that holds the relationship together after all? I hope not... because we are very fickle creatures.

Another way to look at it is this: Is there really something so bad (like walking away) that you can do that will remove the cover of Christ's blood? Can you really 'clean' yourself from being cleansed by God Himself? I don't think so. Anyone whose ever truly trusted God in the first place and truly tasted that relationship would never, ever want to just 'walk away'. But supposing one did, do you think God would forget about them or pursue them to the ends of the earth. Which type of character do you think God posseses?
-- Josh

“When you see a man with a great deal of religion displayed in his shop window, you may depend upon it, he keeps a very small stock of it within” C.H. Spurgeon

1st Corinthians 1:17- "For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel””not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power"

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Re: SALVATION ISSUE

#56

Post by neo-x » Sun May 01, 2011 10:20 am

Neo, if salvation depended on anything then it wouldn't be a free gift. There's a lot of double-speak going on here, bro. You can't have it both ways.
Danny, I have given scriptural evidence for my POV and explained how your argument doesn't apply to some examples in the Bible, which I gave too in my posts. Just by saying that it doesn't happen will not change what is written and how those things happened. You are taking the gift of salvation and the need to keep walking in it as one thing, they are two different things. once you get it for free, you take care of it. That is all I want to say on this now, I have done it again and again but when there is a difference in approach as to how you interpret the scripture then I can't see how any one of us could convince the other. No offense to anyone, brother. I am always pleased to see the zeal with which we try to express our faith and experience and for that God bless all. y>:D<
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: SALVATION ISSUE

#57

Post by neo-x » Sun May 01, 2011 10:36 am

The question becomes, if one can 'walk away from Salvation', was God lying when He said He'd never forsake us? I mean, is it really 'us' that holds the relationship together after all? I hope not... because we are very fickle creatures.

Another way to look at it is this: Is there really something so bad (like walking away) that you can do that will remove the cover of Christ's blood? Can you really 'clean' yourself from being cleansed by God Himself? I don't think so. Anyone whose ever truly trusted God in the first place and truly tasted that relationship would never, ever want to just 'walk away'. But supposing one did, do you think God would forget about them or pursue them to the ends of the earth. Which type of character do you think God posseses?
Marcus, if God will never forsake us, does that mean if I am a Christian, received salvation and after that I can do all ungodly stuff, would God still never forsake me, would he still accept me to heaven, what if I do not want to repent? Or I mildly repent. Can I go to heaven with ungodly life or by dying in sin. And please do not say that I never trusted God really in the first place. sorry, this is not something you could ever know for anyone, so do not assume this as the base of your reason. You will not have definitive conclusion.

Will God pursue us if we turn from him, to the ends of the earth, yes may be, there is a very good chance that he will, but not always. As Zacchaeus in the above post gave examples and scriptures regarding people who lost their salvation as well as Paul putting so much emphasis on being strong and not losing your prize.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: SALVATION ISSUE

#58

Post by DannyM » Sun May 01, 2011 11:27 am

Neo, no offence taken here, brother. Putting your own conditions on salvation won't do. Is salvation a free gift or not? When you are in Christ, you are given the ministry of reconciliation 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 You see, once you are in Christ, while you will stumble and fall, you will always be pulled back to the right path. Salvation is a once for all event; sanctification is a process. When I fall, the Lord pulls me back. This ongoing sanctification is a part of every saved man's walk 1 Corinthians 1:30
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Re: SALVATION ISSUE

#59

Post by zacchaeus » Sun May 01, 2011 2:17 pm

neo-x wrote:
Neo, if salvation depended on anything then it wouldn't be a free gift. There's a lot of double-speak going on here, bro. You can't have it both ways.
Not sure if I did this quote thing right, but the quote was from someone else directed to neo. Just how free is this gift, if its really indeed that free then in the same respect that you say one cannot reject a free gift, then one cannot and does not have to accept a free gift; hence its free. If this is so, well then everyone is saved, and no one is going to hell, and all scripture pertaining to any of the sorts is quite needless. So now it either is free or it isn't... The price paid was the gift and is free for all those who wants it, nothing no where in scripture says you have to keep it after accepting it. In fact God says He wants us to love Him freely without forcing us to love Him or else we would all be robots instead of free moral agents. So are you saying that once I accept Him even if I no longer want Him that 1) I never knew Him in the first place or 2) that I can never get rid of Him and I therefore forfeit my free moral agency and I become a robot; and God becomes a liar at your erroneous interpretation because He said He wouldn't force us to love Him, because its not real love then anyways. Hmmmm!!!!

I will say this first, "Faith without works is dead". They must go hand in hand. One cannot show faith without works. The life lived is the proof of the faith held. If a man lives in obedience to Christ, that is proof that he has faith in Christ. A bare profession may gain the good opinion of pious people; and it may procure, in some cases, worldly good things; but what profit will it be, for any to gain the whole world, and to lose their souls? Can this faith save him? All things should be accounted profitable or unprofitable to us, as they tend to forward or hinder the salvation of our souls. This place of Scripture plainly shows that an opinion, or assent to the gospel, without works, is not faith. There is no way to show we really believe in Christ, but by being diligent in good works, from gospel motives, and for gospel purposes. True believing is not an act of the understanding only, but a work of the whole heart. That a justifying faith cannot be without works, is shown from two examples, Abraham and Rahab. Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. Faith, producing such works, advanced him to peculiar favors. We see then, ver. 24, how that by works a man is justified, not by a bare opinion or profession, or believing without obeying; but by having such faith as produces good works. This is the grace of God wherein we stand, and we should stand to it. There is no middle state. Every one must either live God's friend, or God's enemy. Living to God, as it is the consequence of faith, which justifies and will save, obliges us to do nothing against him, but every thing for him and to him. (James 2:14-26).

So How does it mean you don't lose your salvation when salvation is based on faith with works (fruits) and contingent upon confession and repentance, yet if your faith is dead without works then you have no faith and are not saved or (lose your salvation). I think that is very evident and clear. Not to mention the works of that faith it talks about are your "fruits" which is how someone can tell who you belong to and if Christ is in you or not (saved or not saved). As to the "works" in Ephesians 2:9 those works are the law, so in actuality should read we are saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves, and not by the law. Meaning ourselves nor the law can save us, only Jesus Christ.

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Believeth is a verb meaning its an action word... so is that not a work or a fruit to show believe. It expresses an act and a continued process. It could not be that one act of (Faith) and no more will save the soul (Luke 8:13, 1 Tim. 1:19, 4:1, 5:8, 12, 6:12, 21, 2 Tim. 2:11-13, Heb. 3:6, 12-14, 4:11, 10:23-38, Jude 5, Rev. 2:13). The faith that saves is an ever present active one and it cannot cease and still produce results. Even God has faith in all He does (Rom. 4:17, 1 Cor. 13:13). Believers live by the faith of the Son of God and must always live by faith (Rom. 1:17, Gal. 2:20, Heb. 10:23-38).

John 10:28

3 Things men must do and continue in to receive Eternal Life:
1) Believe, which implies complete and continued obedience.
2) Hear His voice, and be not hearers only, but also doers of His Word (Jas. 1:22-27, 2:9-26).
3) Follow Christ, not only at the beginning of a Christian experience, but daily and throughout life (Lk. 9:23). To claim eternal life when one does not follow is like these Jews claiming to know God and have eternal life. Jesus declared such was not true (Jn. 5:37-47, 8:54-55)...

My own excerpt of the passage (prodigal son) under the knowledge and understanding from God and the living Word through the power of the Holy Spirit.

What I get from the parable is quite simple. I believe it does prefigure salvation but also shows the conduct of Jesus being justified in accepting “sinners”, and the conduct of the Pharisees to be erroneous. Please bear with me, but in essence the older son represents the Pharisees; the younger, returning sinner, who “repented”; and the father, God, who is willing to receive them that “choose” Him.

You can see that the disposition of a sinner is selfish and egocentric. He desires to get all that he can get own his own. Sinners waste their blessings, and reduce themselves to a state of want and wretchedness. A life of sin brings on spiritual want, misery, death, and destruction. It destroys the faculties, the mind, hardens the heart, abuses the grace of God, and makes us careless of Him who gave us all that we have, and unconcerned to the “penalty” of our own disobedience, iniquity; Sin.

The son went on neglectfully and heedlessly - like every sinner does to enjoy oneself, and to waste, misuse, or turn away the toils of His father that He had procured for him. Compare this to the world now and the sinners of those lost or saved today! Afflictions are often the means of bringing sinners to reflection. Think about that statement. It usually takes something tragic to occur in one’s life before they ever come to the realization and acknowledgment of Christ; that they’re a sinner, lost, and need a Savior. While what he had lasted for a short period of time the prodigal son cared very little about his Father if at all. When all he had was gone and he was in the midst of a famine, he thought of his ways. When sinners are in prosperity they think little about God; their own Father too. When he takes away their mercies, and they pass through afflictions, then they think of their ways, and remember that God can forgive them and give them comfort if they so choose. See, he had spent all, had nothing, no righteousness, and no comfort. He was far from God, away from his Father, and in a land of strangers. The sinner has wandered, and has no friends. His miseries came upon himself "because" he was so far away from God on the account of his own free will choice. He chose to turn away from God when he already had everything given to him, yet he still chose!

The prodigal son should have returned to his father “at once”, but he rather chose to become a servant of a citizen of another region. So He chose to be somewhere else and part of another family. Then the sinner, when rational about his sins, should also return at once to God; but he often continues still to wander lost. He tries new things, seeks new pleasures, new friends, differ faiths, religions, even gods, and find them equally inadequate. He engages in new pursuits, but they are all in vain. He is still comfortless, in a strange famished land, lost and spiritually dead.

In (Lk. 15:18 & 21) we see that the sinner repents, “which is required” or “conditional” upon forgiveness, righteousness, and to be “saved” or “saved again”. The key factor is in his “repentance”. If he was never lost and did nothing wrong why ask for forgiveness? Before his reconversion the sinner was alienated from God. He was spiritually deranged, lost, and dead. His own Father says two differ times that he was lost and dead, but now is alive and found. Well, to what then was he lost and dead from if he was always alive and saved? He most certainly was not dead physically!

As far as the Father dividing His living to him, that took place before He ever left. He was giving a saved person Heaven, not a lost, backsliding, falling from grace one. You said yourself and I quote, “God has given us a choice and gives us multiple chances regardless of knowing those of us who will reject Him”. Sounds like one more choice and one more chance even though He already knows the outcome. Furthermore, sinner or not, saved or not, God is still our Father whom created all things and knew us before we were in our mother’s womb. I think I already touched on this, but the fact He remained his Father, as God remains to be our Father, is not a very strong point. Also, it is very obvious that God wants us to come to Him in the first place, but that if we turn away from Him, then He does “long for our return”. I’m glad you used the word return because that means that he has left, departed, turned away, gone astray, and is dead. If not than he physically nor spiritually could ever return unless of course he was missing. Not to mention why would the Father long for his return if He is suppose to already know if he would come back or not.

Again one or two sins, for we all do fall short of glory, will not condemn your soul or make you lose your salvation. I already told you this. In the case of the prodigal son one can choose to walk away from God, for he was lost and dead. The older brother was always with his Father, so obviously the Father was always with him; he never left. Not to mention if you read the context over and over again as I have, it’s like saying you have one child who lives with you “all the time” and another who don’t who only visits, and when he visits you try to do something special with him because you hardly get to see him. The other gets jealous so you tell him that he is always there and that you always do special things with him. Can you not see this? Furthermore, God is more likely to be with us, then say us always be with Him; hence we can chose to leave. You also said yourself that “the younger son was out about and wandering in the world”, so he was not with God but in the world. Can you serve both and love both? Or, will you love one and hate the other?

Just because his Father was waiting, more or less hoping, does not mean He knew he was going to return. Also, in no way shape or form does that reflect on Him as being a good or bad father. People turn from God all the time, or they never come to God in the first place, and die and go to hell. Does that mean that God is not a very good Father? Absolutely not! God gives chance after chance and knowing or not knowing who will and who want, is not Gods fault nor the Fathers fault if we never come back. Opportunity is there and if we choose to come to, or in the case of the prodigal son to come back to, then that is our choice.

I'm sorry for what seems like I'm laying into you all, but I'm really not. The problem lies with being able to rightly divide the word of truth and accurately. My efforts are not to condemn but to teach truth and get people thinking about what the living Word really says. That is why its important not to be a dude that is a bible surfer, but to actually get into the word. Its a lifestyle not just some flyby drive by hit it and quit. We are talking about eternal damnation vs. an everlasting life, and like it or not either way we were born, we will die, and live eternally in one or two places. These are things beyond our measure of control period. I am just scratching the service, for I have a lot more, which is all scripture because I have been dealing with all this for an entire year now. Please study yourselves approved and work out your own salvation in fear and trembling. (Philippians 2:12). I guess those once saved always saved think this scripture is null and void and of little importance. If you have salvation forever and are sealed at what point do you need to work it out? and why in fear and trembling less you can um... well you know guys, your all wise!!!

DannyM
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Re: SALVATION ISSUE

#60

Post by DannyM » Sun May 01, 2011 5:06 pm

We are justified freely by God's grace through faith, not of works, lest any man boast. Justification is a forensic judgement that takes place in the 'court of God,' not in the 'sinner's soul.' Salvation is secured by the precious blood of Christ 1 Peter 1:18-19 . It is done! Paul tells the gentiles how they are saved; he is unequivocal.
credo ut intelligam

dei gratia

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