What's Wrong With Calvinism?

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Re: What's Wrong With Calvinism?

#16

Post by 7777777 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 7:56 pm

jlay wrote: What do you mean nothing happened?
keep in mind here what you are saying, which is, the bible can't be true. Because the bible does in fact say, that those who call on Him will be saved.
So the question must be, just how are you defining salvation here? Please be specific.
Would you say someone who says, "I don't believe in God" saved? Even if after calling upon the Lord? I don't think I can be any more specific.
jlay wrote: Quite possibly they did. And if they rightly called on the Lord, then my friend they are saved.
Even if they say they still don't believe?

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Re: What's Wrong With Calvinism?

#17

Post by 7777777 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:08 pm

puritan lad wrote:.....
...
God's response, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy".
...
Where is this in the Bible?

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Re: What's Wrong With Calvinism?

#18

Post by zoegirl » Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:13 pm

Exodus 33:19

Romans 9:15

Romans 9:18
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"

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Re: What's Wrong With Calvinism?

#19

Post by 7777777 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 8:23 pm

zoegirl wrote:Exodus 33:19

Romans 9:15

Romans 9:18
Yes. Those are good.

I'm confused by the third one. "He hardens whom He desires"?

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Re: What's Wrong With Calvinism?

#20

Post by Telstra Robs » Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:13 pm

7777777 wrote:
jlay wrote: What do you mean nothing happened?
keep in mind here what you are saying, which is, the bible can't be true. Because the bible does in fact say, that those who call on Him will be saved.
So the question must be, just how are you defining salvation here? Please be specific.
Would you say someone who says, "I don't believe in God" saved? Even if after calling upon the Lord? I don't think I can be any more specific.
jlay wrote: Quite possibly they did. And if they rightly called on the Lord, then my friend they are saved.
Even if they say they still don't believe?
This issue is explored in the Parable of the Two Sons (Matthew 21:28-32):

28 "What do you think? A man had two sons. And he went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work in the vineyard today.' 29And he answered, 'I will not,' but afterward he changed his mind and went. 30And he went to the other son and said the same. And he answered, 'I go, sir,' but did not go. 31Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you. 32For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.

I think what it is saying is that if you call on the name of the Lord, but then reject him later, you are not saved, but if you do not initially call on the name of the Lord, but then chose to do so later and chose to follow the will of the Lord, you are saved.

Also, the Bible definitely says that everyone who does call on the name of the Lord will be saved in Romans 10:13: For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." But what if you renege?

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Re: What's Wrong With Calvinism?

#21

Post by 7777777 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 9:40 pm

Telstra Robs wrote: I think what it is saying is that if you call on the name of the Lord, but then reject him later, you are not saved, but if you do not initially call on the name of the Lord, but then chose to do so later and chose to follow the will of the Lord, you are saved.

Also, the Bible definitely says that everyone who does call on the name of the Lord will be saved in Romans 10:13: For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." But what if you renege?
Where do the people who "used" to believe and are now atheists fit? You see, it is hard for me to believe anyone can once believe and then stop believing. It makes no sense. It's like if I was to go into the next room and convince myself this computer I'm working on doesn't exist. It seems you would have to be delusional. It is my opinion that a person either believes or doesn't. There is only a first time for belief. There is no "second saving" for a sinner. If there were, how many times will God save you? Suppose the day you die you are on the condemned side, how do we know the next day you wouldn't be saved again? I don't believe in this "falling away" stuff. I mean, think about it. If you have children, is there anything they could do to make you stop loving them? There isn't anything I can think of. And, doesn't the Bible say He is much better than any earthly father? Secondly, God would not condemn someone He loves.

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Re: What's Wrong With Calvinism?

#22

Post by Maytan » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:17 pm

7777777 wrote:Where do the people who "used" to believe and are now atheists fit? You see, it is hard for me to believe anyone can once believe and then stop believing. It makes no sense. It's like if I was to go into the next room and convince myself this computer I'm working on doesn't exist. It seems you would have to be delusional. It is my opinion that a person either believes or doesn't. There is only a first time for belief. There is no "second saving" for a sinner. If there were, how many times will God save you? Suppose the day you die you are on the condemned side, how do we know the next day you wouldn't be saved again? I don't believe in this "falling away" stuff. I mean, think about it. If you have children, is there anything they could do to make you stop loving them? There isn't anything I can think of. And, doesn't the Bible say He is much better than any earthly father?
I don't know, I think it's perfectly reasonable. Prodigal son ring a bell? ;)
Secondly, God would not condemn someone He loves.
Are you trying to say God doesn't love everyone? God most certainly does love each and every one of us; that's why he gave us the gift of salvation. Yet, we aren't all going to be saved. We have to confess our sins and ask God for his forgiveness in order to be saved.

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Re: What's Wrong With Calvinism?

#23

Post by 7777777 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:16 am

Maytan wrote:
7777777 wrote:Where do the people who "used" to believe and are now atheists fit? You see, it is hard for me to believe anyone can once believe and then stop believing. It makes no sense. It's like if I was to go into the next room and convince myself this computer I'm working on doesn't exist. It seems you would have to be delusional. It is my opinion that a person either believes or doesn't. There is only a first time for belief. There is no "second saving" for a sinner. If there were, how many times will God save you? Suppose the day you die you are on the condemned side, how do we know the next day you wouldn't be saved again? I don't believe in this "falling away" stuff. I mean, think about it. If you have children, is there anything they could do to make you stop loving them? There isn't anything I can think of. And, doesn't the Bible say He is much better than any earthly father?
I don't know, I think it's perfectly reasonable. Prodigal son ring a bell? ;)
The prodigal son does not apply here. The father never stopped loving his son.
7777777 wrote:Secondly, God would not condemn someone He loves.
Maytan wrote:Are you trying to say God doesn't love everyone? God most certainly does love each and every one of us; that's why he gave us the gift of salvation. Yet, we aren't all going to be saved. We have to confess our sins and ask God for his forgiveness in order to be saved.
That's exactly what I'm saying. No, God does not love each and every one of us. The gift of salvation is only for those that believe.

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Re: What's Wrong With Calvinism?

#24

Post by Maytan » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:36 am

7777777 wrote:The prodigal son does not apply here. The father never stopped loving his son.
And likewise, God never stops loving us.
7777777 wrote:That's exactly what I'm saying. No, God does not love each and every one of us. The gift of salvation is only for those that believe.
That's a pretty big claim. Especially with such a heavily quoted verse like John 3:16 being out there. I'm inclined to believe God *does* love all of us.

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Re: What's Wrong With Calvinism?

#25

Post by Telstra Robs » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:13 am

7777777 wrote:
Telstra Robs wrote: I think what it is saying is that if you call on the name of the Lord, but then reject him later, you are not saved, but if you do not initially call on the name of the Lord, but then chose to do so later and chose to follow the will of the Lord, you are saved.

Also, the Bible definitely says that everyone who does call on the name of the Lord will be saved in Romans 10:13: For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." But what if you renege?

Where do the people who "used" to believe and are now atheists fit? You see, it is hard for me to believe anyone can once believe and then stop believing. It makes no sense. It's like if I was to go into the next room and convince myself this computer I'm working on doesn't exist. It seems you would have to be delusional. It is my opinion that a person either believes or doesn't. There is only a first time for belief. There is no "second saving" for a sinner. If there were, how many times will God save you? Suppose the day you die you are on the condemned side, how do we know the next day you wouldn't be saved again? I don't believe in this "falling away" stuff. I mean, think about it. If you have children, is there anything they could do to make you stop loving them? There isn't anything I can think of. And, doesn't the Bible say He is much better than any earthly father? Secondly, God would not condemn someone He loves.

God never stops loving you. Parents will get angry with their children, they may punish them. They will never stop loving them. Disappointment is not the same as hatred. In the case of the Parable of the Two Sons, the first Son was like one who obeyed God and then decided not to whereas the second was like someone who rejected God but then decided to obey him.

Ezekiel 18:30-32: "30"Therefore, I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord GOD. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live."

God is clearly giving the people of Israel a chance to repent. Giving the people a choice to turn back to Him. How can God cut people off from returning to Him and then turn around and request that they do so? Why would God even bother asking the people to repent and turn back to him if He had pre-determined that they would never? Furthermore, in Ezekiel 18:32, God says that he has no pleasure in the death of anyone, so then why would he chose to kill people before they were even born?

John 1:29: The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

John the Baptist said the sin of the world. Just as in John 3:16, God would have to love the entire world to take all their sins away, and not just love a section of the world.

John 12:47: If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

Jesus is saying that he came to save the world, the whole world.

1 John 4:14: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Saviour of the world.

He is to be the saviour of the whole world.

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Re: What's Wrong With Calvinism?

#26

Post by puritan lad » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:45 am

A couple of points, after reading this morning:

1.) "calling on the name of the Lord" requires more than a mere "profession of faith" (which is one reason why I despise the unbiblical "altar call for salvation"). It requires confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart. And believing with your heart is not merely mental assent to biblical truths, but a full heartfelt trust that Christ has redeemed you and is at work sanctifying you as a child predestined for adoption.

2.) There is a sense that God does love everyone (providentially). He gives us all life, blessings, and make the rain and sun fall on all. But the special redeeming love is only for the elect, those whom He chose as His children. As such, there is a sense that God hates and abhors the wicked (Psalm 5:5-6). This hate is not the malevolent hate that we humans are prone to, but it is a very real hate nonetheless. (The common mantra "God loves the sinner, but hates the sin" draws an unbiblical distinction, for what is there in a sinner except for sin? There is nothing in us that moves God to love us, only His own amazing grace.)

Having said that, it is a mistake for us to try to determine who the elect are (that has not been revealed to us, but it is one of the secret things that belong to God). We are to treat all people as though they are potential candidates for salvation. The worst sinner that you know of (even the chief of sinners) may be among the elect. The best pastor you know of may well not be. Only God and the redeemed sinner truly know if they are saved,

3.) Yes, God does harden hearts, and Pharoah is a prime example. God's Word provides salvation for the elect, and hardens the hearts of the reprobate. In both case, however, God's Word always accomplishes it's purpose, never returning void.

4.) Those who profess the faith and then "fall away" were never saved to begin with (1 John 2:19)
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

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Re: What's Wrong With Calvinism?

#27

Post by Noah1201 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:24 am

I, too, have come to appreciate that Calvinism has the only satisfying answer to the Divine Hiddenness problem.

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Re: What's Wrong With Calvinism?

#28

Post by puritan lad » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:40 am

Noah1201 wrote:I, too, have come to appreciate that Calvinism has the only satisfying answer to the Divine Hiddenness problem.
What the Divine Hiddenness problem?
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

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Re: What's Wrong With Calvinism?

#29

Post by B. W. » Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:34 am

puritan lad wrote:
Noah1201 wrote:I, too, have come to appreciate that Calvinism has the only satisfying answer to the Divine Hiddenness problem.
What the Divine Hiddenness problem?

It is the Argument of unbelief:

See Link on this Here

And from these two links as well:

http://philosophy.acadiau.ca/tl_files/s ... enness.pdf

http://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/cup ... ti_id=4642
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Re: What's Wrong With Calvinism?

#30

Post by jlay » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:28 pm

7777777 wrote:Would you say someone who says, "I don't believe in God" saved? Even if after calling upon the Lord? I don't think I can be any more specific.
Quite possibly they did. And if they rightly called on the Lord, then my friend they are saved.
Even if they say they still don't believe?[/quote]

That is always an interesting discussion, and one that I could not answer on the information provided. My experience is that many people who claim to have been Christian, don't even understand what it means to be a Christian in the first place. They either have their own ideas about what it means to be a Christian, or they grew up in a church that espouses incorrect doctrine. They prayed a prayer at VBS, or some other contrived easy believism. It is a great opportunity to probe. The first thing I would do is ask, "What do you MEAN, you don't believe?" Or, "what you mean you used to be a Christian." "...used to believe in God?" We should never jump into some hasty rebuttal without really knowing what this person is claiming in the first place. You will usually discover that, if they are willing to discuss, there is something much different than they came to actual faith in Christ and then rejected it. It fact that argument is self-defeating. A true believer is one who knows Christ. And so how do you come to unknow someone? So, you are right when you say it makes no sense. They certainly might have practiced some religious program that they felt was Christianity. But we know that this is not Christianity. Ask open ended questions like the ones above and you will see.

BTW, you didn't answer my questions.

Regarding what PL said regarding calling on the name of the Lord. It is most definately a valid point. Calling on the Lord requires us to rightly know the purposes of calling, and whom this Lord is that we are calling on.

Regarding #4. Falling away is a little vague. What we are talking about in 1 John 2:19 is very specific to those who deny in their own lives that Jesus is the Christ.

Of course when one rejects anything of God, His heart is hardened towards God. It is very much a self-fulfilling prophecy.

PL, I'm curious as to why you don't think redemption (the cross) can be universal in its effects, yet salvation conditional and exclusive.
The Bible teaches universal redemption in its statement that Jesus Christ, "by the grace of God, tasted death for every man," and that He "gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (Hebrews 2:9; 1 Timothy 2:5-6) Again, "He is the propitiation for our [the church's] sins and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)
Contrast that with: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."

Just like the penalty of death is universal in Adam, yet the penalty of the 2nd death is tied to one's own personal sins against God. And so the penalty of all the world's sin in paid in full through Christ death. Yet salvation is a matter of one's personal decision regarding Christ.
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