Did God Create The Trinity?

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Did God Create The Trinity?

#1

Post by 7777777 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:00 am

I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost but I'm curious as to why the Trinity is not mentioned in the Old Testament. It always seems like anybody who tries to claim this has to take some obscure passage and bend it into a pretzel to get it to sound like the Trinity was there from the beginning. What do you think of this possibility...God created Jesus when He needed a way to save mankind. After Jesus died, only then did the Holy Spirit became a reality. The Holy Spirit being Christ living in His believers. I'm just wondering why the Trinity is not mentioned in the Old Testament.

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Re: Did God Create The Trinity?

#2

Post by CeT-To » Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:04 am

Take a look at this ;)

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... ilit=Panin

Thanx to B.W. that is. :P
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Re: Did God Create The Trinity?

#3

Post by MarcusOfLycia » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:14 am

I think that mostly has to do with our English translations of the Bible. This would be one of those cases where it would be really beneficial to do some word studies on the Hebrew words that reference God in the Old Testament.
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Re: Did God Create The Trinity?

#4

Post by B. W. » Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:46 am

MarcusOfLycia wrote:I think that mostly has to do with our English translations of the Bible. This would be one of those cases where it would be really beneficial to do some word studies on the Hebrew words that reference God in the Old Testament.
This is true that our translations of the Old Testament (OT) are weak regarding the usages of the Hebrew words Elohim, haElohim, EL, and Yahweh. Also weak in understanding how Adoni, Malak, and the words translated as Host, Almighty, Holy One, Face/Presence, Peace, etc & etc are used in association with Elohim, EL, and Yahweh and what they convey so that our translations make it difficult to see how Orthodoxly Trinitarian the OT really is.

In our Transaltions – LORD is written in caps. This is the word Yahweh. One thing a person can do is to highlight the words God in a color code that corresponds to the Hebrew EL and Elohim so that you can identify these easily as well as the Hebrew HaElohim.

HaElohim indicates God in His complete oneness – i.e. the Godhead in the NT (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). This is found in Exodus 3:1, 6, 11, 12, 13c just before the all important verse 14.

You have the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) telling Moses that the I Am, I Am, the I AM has send you. Three I AM’s used. In Verse 14 (Exodus 3:14): “And God (Elohim) said unto Moses: 'I AM THAT I AM'; and He said: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.' JPS –

Shows that the Elohim speaking is the same who is identified in verse 1 and 6 as the one speaking from the burning bush who was NO Mere Angelic being but rather the Messenger/Word Bearing, Task doer, (Malak) Yahweh revealed in Exodus 3:2 as the I AM ho is speaking in verse 14.

So look at Exodus 3:1-14 from the JPS with the Hebrew words bracketed by me so you can see this more clearly:

Exo 3:1 Now Moses was keeping the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian; and he led the flock to the farthest end of the wilderness, and came to the mountain of God [haElohim - Godhead], unto Horeb.

Exo 3:2 And the angel [Malak] of the
(note 'of the' is added into text and is not actually used here) LORD ... actually Reads..

...And the Malak [Messenger,Word] Yahewh appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush; and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Exo 3:3 And Moses said: 'I will turn aside now, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.'

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD [Yahweh from verse 2] saw that he turned aside to see, God [Elohim 2] called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said: 'Moses, Moses.' And he said: 'Here am I.'

Exo 3:5 And He said: 'Draw not nigh hither; put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.'

Exo 3:6 Moreover He said: 'I am the God [Elohim - Majestic Plural One] of thy father, the God [Elohim 1] of Abraham, the God [Elohim 2] of Isaac, and the God [Elohim 3] of Jacob.' And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God [haElohim - Godhead].

Exo 3:7 And the LORD [Yahweh the same one speaking from verse 2 the Word Yahweh note John 1:1 identified as Jesus] said: 'I have surely seen the affliction of My people that are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their pains;


(Note Word Yahweh (the Son) is speaking in first person speech - I in verses 9 and 10 - this was no Angelic Being)

Exo 3:8 and I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Amorite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.

Exo 3:9 And now, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto Me; moreover I have seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them.

Exo 3:10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth My people the children of Israel out of Egypt.'

Exo 3:11 And Moses said unto God [haElohim – Godhead Trinity]: 'Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?'

Exo 3:12 And He said: 'Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be the token unto thee, that I have sent thee: when thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.'

Exo 3:13 And Moses said unto God [haElohim – Godhead Trinity]: 'Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them: The God [Elohim Majestic Plural One] of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me: What is His name? what shall I say unto them?'

Exo 3:14 And God [Elohim] said unto Moses: 'I AM [1] THAT I AM [3]'; and He said: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM [2] hath sent me unto you.'


Please note the Numbers I placed indicated the order of the Orthodox Trinity 1-Father, 2 Son, and 3 – Holy Spirit and that they are One yet three distinctly different person of the same divine essences thus fulfilling what God says about Himself – NONE LIKE HIM - Isaiah 46:9 and note Deuteronomy 33:26, 27below:

"There is no one like the God (EL singular) of Jeshurun, Who rides the heavens to help you, And in His excellency on the clouds. 27 The eternal God (Elohim - the Majestic Plural One) is your refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms (Son and Holy Spirit); He (The Godhead Trinity) will thrust out the enemy from before you, And will say, 'Destroy!' NKJV
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Re: Did God Create The Trinity?

#5

Post by 7777777 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:28 pm

CeT-To wrote:Take a look at this ;)

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... ilit=Panin

Thanx to B.W. that is. :P
That's the pretzel twisting I'm talking about. I don't see the Trinity in any of those passages.

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Re: Did God Create The Trinity?

#6

Post by B. W. » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:20 am

7777777 wrote:
CeT-To wrote:Take a look at this ;)

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... ilit=Panin

Thanx to B.W. that is. :P
That's the pretzel twisting I'm talking about. I don't see the Trinity in any of those passages.

7777777 - If you are looking for the Hebrew word spelled in English ‘Trinity’ in the OT – you will not find it.

You will find the concept of the Divine Trinity thoroughly soaked within the pages of the OT, as well as within this interesting word: haElohim. The Hebrew definite article word ‘ha’ is usually translated in English as ‘the.’ When this definite article is prefixed to a plural noun, it implies ‘all the.’

In Keith Massey’s Doctorial Dissertation, entitled “The Concord of Collective Nouns and Verbs in biblical Hebrew: A Controlled Study,” 1998 University of Wisconsin-Madison on page 28 He states that when this definite article (ha) is prefixed to a noun it implies 'all the’ without saying so. Massey uses the example of yam – people - with the prefix ha implies – ‘all the people’ and is read as ‘the people.’

We in English can read and understand that ‘the people’ of the United States refers and implies ‘all the people’ in the United States. In Hebrew, the definite article (Ha) is attached /prefixed to a plural noun also expresses the same thing – entirety, the sum, whole, mass, all of the noun it is prefixed/attached too.

For example, HaElohim is translated as ‘all the’ gods when referring to false gods in Exodus 18:11, Judges 10:14, and 2 Ch 2:5. Please also note that when haElohim is used in context to denote human beings judges as in Exodus 22:8-9 and Joshua 24:1 notice the English translation reads ‘the Judges’ implying all the judges – not a few but more than one judge.

Therefore when haElohim is used to describe God – it is implying the Trinity of God all of God in his all glorious entirety as One God who is plural in his nature. None Like Him…

Elohim is a plural noun. When used to denote God – a grammar rule is used to denote a Majestic Plural noun. Elohim is still a plural noun. You have a Majestic Plural of one God expressed by this rule, not only the Majesty of God is being expressed but also his plural Oneness is being expressed too. I am not here to debate the use of Majestic Plural Noun rule; we can do that on another section. Elohim is a Plural noun and is often used with singular verbs and still translated as a plural – gods when referring to false gods so the Majestic Plural does not denote majesty in all its varied usages and should give scholars much to debate and haggle over. For this discussion, let’s move on. Since God is Majestic then so would his having a plural make up also be Majestic as well... Would not Plural Oneness be truly Majestic?

You have traditional Jewish scholars who deny Christ teaching Christian scholars how to correctly read the word Elohim and haElohim when referring to God so as to cause the readers of the OT not to see Jesus in it, or see that Elohim is the only Majestic Plural One God as the OT often implies. Amazing…

Compound this with the rabbinic scholar Maimonides (1135-1204 AD) who changed the Shema use of echad to yachid to describe God as ‘one alone (yachid)’ not as an ‘ehcad (unity of oneness).’ Then look at the Historical tragedy of the Jewish people in how they made God’s unique Oneness into a common form of solitary oneness like any other thing and then read Exodus 20:4, 5, 6 at the consequences do something like this.

Look how God describes himself in Isaiah 46:9 as None Like Him / no one like him. If God is in the same form of Oneness as a solitary alone chair or same state of oneness as a false deity like Zeus, then how could there be really none like God/no one like him? In Light of this, Exodus 20:4-6 has more meaning than one realizes. One reason for historical tragic record of the Jewish people can be found in theses verses. Look and what Maimonides did and what followed afterward for small example.

God has not totally forsaken his people – they will look upon the one whom they pierced no matter how much their teachers try to change the text of that prophesy to deny that it refers to Christ Jesus… (Zechariah 12:10).

Not meaning to sound disrespectful - No, this is not pretzel twisting as you imply 7777777, it is untwisting the pretzel…
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Re: Did God Create The Trinity?

#7

Post by CeT-To » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:29 am

7777777 wrote:
CeT-To wrote:Take a look at this ;)

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... ilit=Panin

Thanx to B.W. that is. :P
That's the pretzel twisting I'm talking about. I don't see the Trinity in any of those passages.
You don't see baptism of water in the Old testament or the word Theology in it, yet you do and learn about these things.

The Trinity was a mystery in the OT.

I have a question actually...Did any one know of the Father until Jesus came?
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

I Praise you Yahweh, my Lord, my God!!!!!

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Re: Did God Create The Trinity?

#8

Post by B. W. » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:38 am

CeT-To wrote:....I have a question actually...Did any one know of the Father until Jesus came?
I am not 100% sure but Psalms 68:4, 5, 6 suggest as well as Isaiah 9:6 and Mal 2:10 that this concept was known in the OT.

Jesus explains this concept as well and Paul refines this a bit more in Eph 1:5 and Gal 4:5 in that we are adopted and thus is how this concept is to be understood properly.
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Re: Did God Create The Trinity?

#9

Post by Colin2000 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:23 pm

Hi All,

A good starter in the understanding of Trinity, Father, Son and HolyGhost is John.1:1-5!

Yours in Christ,

Colin2000.

PS. I use ESV usually is there a way of labelling a Bible preference on this Forum???
"JESUS IS LORD!"

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Re: Did God Create The Trinity?

#10

Post by 7777777 » Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:27 pm

B. W. wrote: .....
Not meaning to sound disrespectful - No, this is not pretzel twisting as you imply 7777777, it is untwisting the pretzel…
OK. You have gone from pretzel twisting to hoop jumping. Why is it so clear in The New Testament?

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Re: Did God Create The Trinity?

#11

Post by B. W. » Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:25 am

7777777 wrote:
B. W. wrote:.....Not meaning to sound disrespectful - No, this is not pretzel twisting as you imply 7777777, it is untwisting the pretzel…
OK. You have gone from pretzel twisting to hoop jumping. Why is it so clear in The New Testament?
The Old Testament is just as clear as the New Testament. It is our English Translations of the Old Testament which are based upon sources hostile to the claims Jesus made about himself is one reason why people don’t see it in the Old Testament due to this kind of influence brought into English Translations. An example of this can be found in the NIV translation of Amos 4:11 and how it changes Elohim – God into the personal pronoun ‘I’.
“I overthrew some of you as I [d] overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. You were like a burning stick snatched from the fire, yet you have not returned to me,” declares the LORD – Amos 4:11 NIV

NIV Footnote
d. Amos 4:11 Hebrew 'God'
This changes how one reads the text so you do not see the Trinity in the text. Look at the NASB reading the same passage below that retains Elohim in the text:
Amos 4:11, "I overthrew you, as God (Elohim) overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares (Yahweh) the LORD.”
Verse eight makes it clear that Yahweh is doing to speaking here and note the use of Elohim in verse 11. Yahweh is using a Plural Noun – Elohim to describe how He destroyed those areas. There is a reason Yahweh did not use a personal pronoun ‘I’ here as He did so at the beginning of His statement in the text.

Yahweh is describing in truth how He destroyed the cities. He cannot lie. The Son and Holy Spirit were involved destroying those cities. In the Genesis 18 and 19 accounts, the theophanies of God appear as three men to Abraham. Again Two Malak Yahwehs left for the city Sodom. These were not two mere angelic beings but the Son and Holy Spirit. How can we know this for certain? Lot bowed to the two. Angelic beings of the Lord will not let you bow to them Rev 22:8-9 and Genesis 19:13 says that they will destroy these cities.

Who destroyed these cities? Amos answers…
Amos 4:11, "I overthrew you, as God (Elohim) overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares (Yahweh) the LORD.”
Now note how traditional rabbinic translators, who are prone to be hostile to Jesus’ claims about himself, spin Genesis 18 and 19 as being two mere angelic beings sent to Sodom. How many Christian scholars kowtow to that line of OT interpretation despite what the bible says? That is why it is difficult to see the concept of the Trinity within the OT.

Again in Hosea 12:4 the NIV ends the verse reading ‘Him’ instead of the Hebrew ‘Us
Hosea12:4-5, “He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor. He found him at Bethel and talked with him there — 5 the LORD God Almighty, the LORD is his name of renown!” NIV
Compare with the NASB which follows the Hebrew well:
Hosea 12:4-5, “Yes, he wrestled with the angel and prevailed; He wept and sought His favor. He found Him at Bethel And there He spoke with us, 5 Even the LORD, the God of hosts, The LORD is His name.” NASB
Note verse 5 – even Yahweh, Elohim of Host, Yahweh is His name identifies that the angel – Malak - was no mere angelic being that wrestled Jacob but rather whom Verse 5 speaks of. The third person US refers to the full Trinity of God manifested at Bethal as whom Jacob spoke too.

How can we be sure? In Genesis 35:7 is used the word – haElohim in reference to Genesis 28:13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19c where Jacob had his dream. Later in Genesis 35:1 Elohim tells him to go back to this place and get ready to meet the one whom He wrestled with and later identifies in Gen 35:9, 11c as Hosea 12:4-5 says.

You miss all this in the NIV translation of these two specific verses I mentioned (see closing remarks).

Another can be found in Malachi 2:10, “Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another By profaning the covenant of the fathers?” NASB

In the verses above and below Malachi 2:1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 9, 13-16c, the word You is used then in verse 10 it changes to US then next verse 13 back to You in the Hebrew text. Why? A possible 600 thru 10 centuries AD alteration of verse 10 by Masoretes translators hostile to whom Jesus claimed himself to be as a response to the early Church use of Malachi to help reveal who Jesus claimed Himself to be.

Look at the Septuagint version of the same text found in the Dead Sea Scrolls which predate the Masoretic translation written in the approx 200-100 BC time frame:

Mal 2:10, "Have you not all one father? Did not one God create you? why have you forsaken every man his brother, to profane the covenant of your fathers?" LXX

The Messenger speaking was not a created being. (Note Malachi 2:7 - messenger is the word Malak the two words 'of the' are not in the Hebrew text so it should read Messenger Yahweh not messenger of the Lord In the LXX the two words 'of the are implied and are not in the text either. The reading of Messenger Yahweh is correct. Now understand why John wrote in John 1:1, 2, 3, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14c about who Jesus is – the Word bearing Yahweh who bears messages – does tasks, etc & etc)

That is why it is not so easy to find the Trinity within the OT… But it is there – thoroughly soaked within the pages of the OT nevertheless.
B. W. wrote:Closing Remarks:

This is not to suggest that the NIV or other English Translations are full of mistakes. It is difficult to translate foreign languages in ones native language. The NIV is a fine translation but like all translations the translators faced difficulties. It is best to use several translations.

If a person wants to see how the OT is thoroughly Orthodoxly Trinitarian, then all one need to do is use a Strongs concordance while reading the OT and color code or mark everywhere ‘God’ is used to tell the difference when (430) Elohim is used and (410) El is used. LORD written in Caps is the word Yahweh. As for the word haElohim, you need bible software and find the Hebrew spelling and search for it in using your software and highlight.

In my Bible, I have haElohim circled in green ink, El circled in Black Ink. Elohim, I left alone. This way, I can quickly indentify how the words are used. Then I noticed the use of third and second person speech used as I read. The more I read from the OT, the more I see the Trinity spoken about in the Shema - Deuteronomy 6:4-5

The more I wonder about how there is no one like Yahweh. The more He reveals from his Presence in way I cannot describe. It takes time to code your bible to indentify when haElohim, Elohim, El, LORD is used but doing so brings back to life the biblical writers intent – reveal and glorify the Lord.

The OT is so soaked with the doctrine of the divine orthodox Trinity, that despite efforts of Rabbinic Hebraic scholars and cultist who are hostile to the claims Jesus made about Himself, they cannot camouflage all the scriptural truth that the OT proclaims about Jesus through spin and changing a word here and there.

The translated versions of the Bible we have are more than adequate to uncover the truth about the Lord within the OT.
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Re: Did God Create The Trinity?

#12

Post by B. W. » Fri Dec 31, 2010 10:53 am

Bump - re-edite my last post above for clarity...

and added closing remarks
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Re: Did God Create The Trinity?

#13

Post by Gman » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:06 am

777777, if you don't understand the Trinity, you are missing the entire message of the Bible. Not that man dies for God again in a second Adam, but that GOD DIES FOR MAN....

Man wanted to prove his faithfulness to God when Abraham tried to sacrifice his son Isaac, from his loins, to God Genesis 22:1-24. The response from God was to sacrifice his son, or Himself, BACK TO MAN John 3:16.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Did God Create The Trinity?

#14

Post by B. W. » Fri Dec 31, 2010 11:30 am

Gman wrote:777777, if you don't understand the Trinity, you are missing the entire message of the Bible. Not that man dies for God again in a second Adam, but that GOD DIES FOR MAN....

Man wanted to prove his faithfulness to God when Abraham tried to sacrifice his son Isaac, from his loins, to God Genesis 22:1-24. The response from God was to sacrifice his son, or Himself, BACK TO MAN John 3:16.
Amen!
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Re: Did God Create The Trinity?

#15

Post by Gman » Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:25 pm

B. W. wrote:Amen!
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I'll try to sum it up.. I think anyways.. ;)

1. God bestowed His love to man, created him in love and placed him into a beautiful garden Genesis 2:1-25.
2. But man, in his free will, renounces God's blessings and sins against God Genesis 3:1-24.
3. Then man does not ask for forgiveness, instead he blames the woman for the sin Genesis 3:12.
4. Later, however, man comes back to his senses. Man says, I'm sorry, I goofed. I give myself back to you entirely. Forgive me, here is my life. Test me.. I will prove my faithfulness to you by dieing for you. I will sacrifice my life to you Genesis 22: 1-24.
5. God replies, oh yeah?? You would die for me? Test me... Ok, then I WILL DIE FOR YOU John 3:16.

I find it very interesting that God waited for man's response to his sin.. God actually waited. He didn't force it, He waited... Man had to come to the realization that he sinned. Finally, instead of making excuses, man convicted himself of his sin, then tried to make an atonement for it Genesis 22: 4-24. Then in response, God replies back, I will die back to you John 3:16.

God tested man's love, then man tested God's love. :P

WOW!!!!
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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