Infinite punishment for finite sins

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
User avatar
BavarianWheels
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1806
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:09 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 14 times

Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#406

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:34 am

B. W. wrote:
BavarianWheels wrote:Still waiting for "literal judgement".
Still wait for a specific verse you are refering too - for example in the KJV the word Judgment is used 294 times and various Hebrew and Greek words are used - so which verses out of 285 verses in the KJV that use Judgment 294 times in the bible would you like to discuss?
It's not difficult. It seems there isn't a problem making every instance of 'forever and ever' (and the like) out to be literal, I'm wondering if every instance of 'judgement' you do the same for it's literal interpretation. Simply what is judgement and more specifically in context of the last judgment.

Define judgment.
.
.

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8355
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#407

Post by B. W. » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:07 am

BavarianWheels wrote:
B. W. wrote:
BavarianWheels wrote:Still waiting for "literal judgement".
Still wait for a specific verse you are refering too - for example in the KJV the word Judgment is used 294 times and various Hebrew and Greek words are used - so which verses out of 285 verses in the KJV that use Judgment 294 times in the bible would you like to discuss?
It's not difficult. It seems there isn't a problem making every instance of 'forever and ever' (and the like) out to be literal, I'm wondering if every instance of 'judgement' you do the same for it's literal interpretation. Simply what is judgement and more specifically in context of the last judgment. Define judgment.
This contains just about every use of Judgment usages in the original Greek and Hebrew which also transfers into modern English equivalent usage as well. To discover the meaning of judgment as used in the bible comes from the individual context & contextual flow of the verses which refines the meaning of all the usage of the translated words into the English word – Judgment. Look at the Legal Judgment definitions at bottom of quote from Dictionary.com which are interesting.
Dictionary.com wrote:Judgment Defined from Dictionary.com

World English Dictionary

judgment or judgement

— n
1. the faculty of being able to make critical distinctions and achieve a balanced viewpoint; discernment
2. a. the decision or verdict pronounced by a court of law
b. an obligation arising as a result of such a decision or verdict, such as a debt
c. the document recording such a decision or verdict
d. ( as modifier ): a judgment debtor
3. the formal decision of one or more judges at a contest or competition
4. a particular decision or opinion formed in a case in dispute or doubt
5. an estimation: a good judgment of distance
6. criticism or censure
7. logic
a. the act of establishing a relation between two or more terms, esp as an affirmation or denial
b. the expression of such a relation
8. against one's better judgment contrary to a more appropriate or preferred course of action
9. sit in judgment
a. to preside as judge
b. to assume the position of critic
10. in someone's judgment in someone's opinion

judgement or judgement

— n
1. the estimate by God of the ultimate worthiness or unworthiness of the individual (the Particular Judgment ) or of all mankind (the General Judgment or Last Judgment )
2. God's subsequent decision determining the final destinies of all individuals

+++++++++++++++++

judg·ment   /ˈdʒʌdʒmənt/ Show Spelled
[juhj-muhnt] Show IPA

–noun
1. an act or instance of judging.
2. the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, esp. in matters affecting action; good sense; discretion: a man of sound judgment.
3. the demonstration or exercise of such ability or capacity: The major was decorated for the judgment he showed under fire.
4. the forming of an opinion, estimate, notion, or conclusion, as from circumstances presented to the mind: Our judgment as to the cause of his failure must rest on the evidence.
5. the opinion formed: He regretted his hasty judgment.
6. Law .
a. a judicial decision given by a judge or court.
b. the obligation, esp. a debt, arising from a judicial decision.
c. the certificate embodying such a decision and issued against the obligor, esp. a debtor.
7. a misfortune regarded as inflicted by divine sentence, as for sin.
8. ( usually initial capital letter ) Also called Last Judgment, Final Judgment. the final trial of all people, both the living and dead, at the end of the world.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Random House Dictionary

Origin:
1250–1300; ME jug ( g ) ement < OF jugement, equiv. to juge- (s. of jugier to judge) + -ment -ment

—Related forms
in·ter·judg·ment, noun
re·judg·ment, noun

–noun
1. an act or instance of judging.
2. the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, esp. in matters affecting action; good sense; discretion: a man of sound judgment.
3. the demonstration or exercise of such ability or capacity: The major was decorated for the judgment he showed under fire.
4. the forming of an opinion, estimate, notion, or conclusion, as from circumstances presented to the mind: Our judgment as to the cause of his failure must rest on the evidence.
5. the opinion formed: He regretted his hasty judgment.
6. Law .
a. a judicial decision given by a judge or court.
b. the obligation, esp. a debt, arising from a judicial decision.
c. the certificate embodying such a decision and issued against the obligor, esp. a debtor.
7. a misfortune regarded as inflicted by divine sentence, as for sin.
8. ( usually initial capital letter ) Also called Last Judgment, Final Judgment. the final trial of all people, both the living and dead, at the end of the world.

—Synonyms
1. determination. 2. discrimination, discernment, perspicacity; sagacity, wisdom, intelligence, prudence. 6a. verdict, decree.

Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2010.
Cite This Source | Link To judgment

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Collins English Dictionary

Judgment

— n
1. the estimate by God of the ultimate worthiness or unworthiness of the individual (the Particular Judgment ) or of all mankind (the General Judgment or Last Judgment )
2. God's subsequent decision determining the final destinies of all individuals

Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009
Cite This Source

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Word Origin & History

judgment

early 13c., "a pronunciation of an opinion, criticism," from O.Fr. jugement (11c.), from jugier (see judge). Meaning "any authoritative decision" is from early 14c. (the Doomsday sense, "trial of moral beings by God," is mid-14c.); meaning "the forming of an opinion" is from late 14c. Sense of "discernment" is first recorded 1530s

+++++++++++++++++

Legal Dictionary

Main Entry: judg·ment
Variant: also judge·ment /'j&j-m&nt/
Function: noun

1 a : a formal decision or determination on a matter or case by a court; especially : FINAL JUDGMENT in this entry —compare DICTUM, DISPOSITION, FINDING, HOLDING, OPINION, RULING, VERDICT

NOTE: Under Rule 54 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure judgment encompasses a decree and any order from which an appeal lies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cog·no·vit judgment
/käg-'nO-vit-/
: an acknowledgment by a debtor of the existence of a debt with agreement that an adverse judgment may be entered without notice or a hearing : CONFESSION OF JUDGMENT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
consent judgment
: a judgment approved and entered by a court by consent of the parties upon agreement or stipulation : CONSENT DECREE at, DECREE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
declaratory judgment
: a judgment declaring a right or establishing the legal status or interpretation of a law or instrument declaratory judgment that the regulation is unconstitutional> —compare DAMAGE 2, INJUNCTION specific performance at PERFORMANCE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
default judgment
: a judgment entered by a court after an entry of default against a party for failure to appear, to file a pleading, or to take other required procedural steps called also judgment by default —compare decree pro confesso at DECREE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
deficiency judgment
: a judgment in favor of a creditor for the balance of a debt that is not satisfied in full by the security; especially : such a judgment following the foreclosure of a mortgage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
final judgment
: a judgment that leaves nothing further to be done on a matter except execution
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
in personam judgment
: PERSONAL JUDGMENT in this entry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
in rem judgment
: JUDGMENT IN REM in this entry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment by default
: DEFAULT JUDGMENT in this entry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment in per·so·nam
/-"in-p&r-'sO-n&m, -per-'sO-näm/
; plural judgments in personam
: PERSONAL JUDGMENT in this entry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment in rem
/-in-'rem/
; plural judgments in rem
: a judgment affecting the status of a particular thing (as an item of property) or subject matter : a judgment rendered by a court exercising in rem jurisdiction —compare PERSONAL JUDGMENT in this entry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment ni·si
/-'nI-"sI, -'nE-sE/
; plural judgments nisi
: a judgment that is not final or absolute judgment nisi requiring them to show cause why it should not be made final — Code of Alabama >
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment non ob·stan·te ve·re·dic·to
/-'nän-&b-'stan-tE-"ver-&-'dik-tO, -'non-ob-'stän-tA-"vA-rA-'dEk-tO/
; plural judgments non obstante veredicto
Etymology: non obstante veredicto , from Medieval Latin, notwithstanding the verdict
: JUDGMENT NOTWITHSTANDING THE VERDICT in this entry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment not·with·stand·ing the verdict
: a judgment that may be granted upon a motion by a defendant whose motion for a directed verdict was denied and that sets aside the jury's verdict in favor of a judgment in accordance with the motion for directed verdict called also judgment non obstante veredicto
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment of acquittal
: a judgment that is rendered upon motion of the defendant or the court's own motion at the close of the evidence and that acquits the defendant of one or more of the offenses charged when the evidence is insufficient to sustain a conviction called also directed verdict directed verdict of acquittal
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment on the merits
: a judgment made after consideration of the substantive as distinguished from procedural issues in a case
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment on the pleadings
: SUMMARY JUDGMENT in this entry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
money judgment
: a judgment directing the payment of a sum of money
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ni·hil–di·cit judgment
/'nI-h&l-'di-sit-, -'dI-; 'nE-hil-'dE-kit-/
: a judgment entered against a defendant who has failed to make an effective answer (as because the answer is withdrawn or does not respond to the merits of the plaintiff's case) called also nil dicit judgment
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
personal judgment
: a judgment determining the rights and liabilities of a particular person : a judgment rendered by a court exercising personal jurisdiction over a person —compare JUDGMENT IN REM in this entry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
summary judgment
: judgment that may be granted upon a party's motion when the pleadings, discovery, and any affidavits show that there is no genuine issue of material fact and that the party is entitled to judgment in its favor as a matter of law
NOTE: According to Rule 56 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, a motion for summary judgment may be made at any time after 20 days following the commencement of the action. Summary judgment may be granted on all or on just part of a case. b : an obligation (as a debt) created by a decree of a court judgment s from uninsured motorists — Harvard Law Review >; also : an official document embodying such a decision or decree c : a declaration by a court of the conviction of a criminal defendant and the punishment to be imposed; specifically : SENTENCE
2 : the action of judging : the mental or intellectual process of forming an opinion or making a decision; also : an opinion or decision so formed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
business judgment
: a decision by a person or body (as a board of directors) having authority to act on behalf of a business and usually marked by reasonableness and the exercise of due care; also : the faculty of making such decisions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sub·sti·tut·ed judgment
: a decision regarding medical treatment made by a person (as a family member) on behalf of a person who is incompetent and unable to decide for himself or herself
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

User avatar
BavarianWheels
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1806
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:09 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 14 times

Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#408

Post by BavarianWheels » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:35 am

B. W. wrote:This contains just about every use of Judgment usages in the original Greek and Hebrew which also transfers into modern English equivalent usage as well. To discover the meaning of judgment as used in the bible comes from the individual context & contextual flow of the verses which refines the meaning of all the usage of the translated words into the English word – Judgment. Look at the Legal Judgment definitions at bottom of quote from Dictionary.com which are interesting.
So which then is the best interpretation of judgment in regards to final judgement? What is it, what happens...?
.
.

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8355
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#409

Post by B. W. » Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:07 pm

There are many judgments God makes and has made, for example, in his dealings with ancient Israel, nations (Rev 17:1), people, and sin. God carried out judgments which sought for repentance or condemnation. All judgments serve the justice of God. So there are many judgments made by God. There is also the judgment that comes after dying (Hebrews 9:27, Ec 12:7, 14, Matt 12:32, 35,36) where one who is not saved is judged /condemned and held for a period of time before serving the full sentence elsewhere (Isaiah 24:22, Ezekiel 26:19, 20, Ezekiel 32:18-32, Psalms 28:1, Psalms 9:15, 16, 17, Numbers 16:33, Luke 10:15, Isaiah 14:11-19). This sets the stage for the Last Judgment which involves the carrying out of the judgment/sentence involving impartiality in judgment as well (Revelation 20:12). No stone left unturned.
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

User avatar
BavarianWheels
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1806
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:09 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 14 times

Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#410

Post by BavarianWheels » Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:42 am

B. W. wrote:Judgment which involves the carrying out of the judgment/sentence involving impartiality in judgment as well (Revelation 20:12). No stone left unturned.
Is it what you are saying here that judgment and sentence are the same thing?
.
.

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8355
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#411

Post by B. W. » Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:05 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
B. W. wrote:Judgment which involves the carrying out of the judgment/sentence involving impartiality in judgment as well (Revelation 20:12). No stone left unturned.
Is it what you are saying here that judgment and sentence are the same thing?
As it is written, there are many judgments of God but we are concerned with only two, which tie together...

Hebrews 9:27 – is where the official judgment from God is first given, the sentence declared - where a division is made based on equity. Those found in Christ/will be with the Lord and those found in state of sin separated into hell. Note Isaiah 24:22 - where one waits for their transfer to a new location to serve out their just sentence (Happens before Rev 20:12).

Rev 20:12 – where the ones in this group receive the full sentence previously declared and recorded. Note, their actions are again reviewed according to their deeds and what was recorded in books. Then Rev 20:13 – those mentioned in this verse are judged again – reviewed with equity – according to their works and from this they are transferred to a new location to serve out the rest of their sentence in the Lake of fire – not a lake of annihilation as Rev 21:27 and Rev 22:14-15 indicates.

Note Gen 2:17 the ancient Hebrew used the word translated Die twice in two different verb tenses but our English translations only uses the word once. Very interesting but is often missed by people – two different tenses used for the same word, first used in the Qal Infinitive Absolute and second in the Qal imperfect. The second death, like the first is not cessation of life into non-being. If God annihilates into non-being God denies himself and is unable to justly fulfill his word – devil wins.
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

User avatar
BavarianWheels
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1806
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:09 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 14 times

Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#412

Post by BavarianWheels » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:32 pm

B. W. wrote:
BavarianWheels wrote:
B. W. wrote:Judgment which involves the carrying out of the judgment/sentence involving impartiality in judgment as well (Revelation 20:12). No stone left unturned.
Is it what you are saying here that judgment and sentence are the same thing?
As it is written, there are many judgments of God but we are concerned with only two, which tie together...

Hebrews 9:27 – is where the official judgment from God is first given, the sentence declared - where a division is made based on equity. Those found in Christ/will be with the Lord and those found in state of sin separated into hell. Note Isaiah 24:22 - where one waits for their transfer to a new location to serve out their just sentence (Happens before Rev 20:12).

Rev 20:12 – where the ones in this group receive the full sentence previously declared and recorded. Note, their actions are again reviewed according to their deeds and what was recorded in books. Then Rev 20:13 – those mentioned in this verse are judged again – reviewed with equity – according to their works and from this they are transferred to a new location to serve out the rest of their sentence in the Lake of fire – not a lake of annihilation as Rev 21:27 and Rev 22:14-15 indicates.

Note Gen 2:17 the ancient Hebrew used the word translated Die twice in two different verb tenses but our English translations only uses the word once. Very interesting but is often missed by people – two different tenses used for the same word, first used in the Qal Infinitive Absolute and second in the Qal imperfect. The second death, like the first is not cessation of life into non-being. If God annihilates into non-being God denies himself and is unable to justly fulfill his word – devil wins.
All of this still does not answer the question. What is judgment specifically and then in context of it being the Judgment. I then asked you, based on your previous post, is then judgment and sentence the same thing...to which you give the above reply. I don't see how that is the explanation of 'judgment' and/or 'sentence'. Are they the same thing or are they separate points?

I'm at a loss on how else to ask more plainly. One would think it can be answered in a sentence or two.
.
.

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8355
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#413

Post by B. W. » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:19 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:...All of this still does not answer the question. What is judgment specifically and then in context of it being the Judgment. I then asked you, based on your previous post, is then judgment and sentence the same thing...to which you give the above reply. I don't see how that is the explanation of 'judgment' and/or 'sentence'. Are they the same thing or are they separate points?
I did answer, one reason that you may not grasp what is being said is that you define these words differently by assigning annihilationism to the concept of judgment, judging, cut –off, destroy, burn, fire, etc…

What is your definition for Judgment mentioned in Hebrews 9:27 and judge in Rev 20:12,13,14?
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

User avatar
BavarianWheels
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1806
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:09 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 14 times

Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#414

Post by BavarianWheels » Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:08 am

B. W. wrote:
BavarianWheels wrote:...All of this still does not answer the question. What is judgment specifically and then in context of it being the Judgment. I then asked you, based on your previous post, is then judgment and sentence the same thing...to which you give the above reply. I don't see how that is the explanation of 'judgment' and/or 'sentence'. Are they the same thing or are they separate points?
I did answer, one reason that you may not grasp what is being said is that you define these words differently by assigning annihilationism to the concept of judgment, judging, cut –off, destroy, burn, fire, etc…

What is your definition for Judgment mentioned in Hebrews 9:27 and judge in Rev 20:12,13,14?
I haven't given a definition for judgment. Nor have you. All you have to do is answer the simple question...What is judgment? What happens at judgment? When it says we will all face judgment, what does that mean? You're avoiding answering the simplest of questions of simply defining what judgment is. Why do you get to avoid the question and then ask the same question of me?
.
.

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8355
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#415

Post by B. W. » Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:32 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:...I haven't given a definition for judgment. Nor have you. All you have to do is answer the simple question...What is judgment? What happens at judgment? When it says we will all face judgment, what does that mean? You're avoiding answering the simplest of questions of simply defining what judgment is. Why do you get to avoid the question and then ask the same question of me?

I did, see below...

There is no pat definition for judgment as it depends upon the context and how it is used. Below quote sums all the possible usages which correlates to how all the original language words that have been translated in English as judge/ judgment are used in the bible. Context is important as it gives focus on how such words were used in so many varieties of ways that shape its definition.

So take you pick.
Dictionary.com wrote:Judgment Defined from Dictionary.com

World English Dictionary

judgment or judgement

— n
1. the faculty of being able to make critical distinctions and achieve a balanced viewpoint; discernment
2. a. the decision or verdict pronounced by a court of law
b. an obligation arising as a result of such a decision or verdict, such as a debt
c. the document recording such a decision or verdict
d. ( as modifier ): a judgment debtor
3. the formal decision of one or more judges at a contest or competition
4. a particular decision or opinion formed in a case in dispute or doubt
5. an estimation: a good judgment of distance
6. criticism or censure
7. logic
a. the act of establishing a relation between two or more terms, esp as an affirmation or denial
b. the expression of such a relation
8. against one's better judgment contrary to a more appropriate or preferred course of action
9. sit in judgment
a. to preside as judge
b. to assume the position of critic
10. in someone's judgment in someone's opinion

judgement or judgement

— n
1. the estimate by God of the ultimate worthiness or unworthiness of the individual (the Particular Judgment ) or of all mankind (the General Judgment or Last Judgment )
2. God's subsequent decision determining the final destinies of all individuals

+++++++++++++++++

judg·ment   /ˈdʒʌdʒmənt/ Show Spelled
[juhj-muhnt] Show IPA

–noun
1. an act or instance of judging.
2. the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, esp. in matters affecting action; good sense; discretion: a man of sound judgment.
3. the demonstration or exercise of such ability or capacity: The major was decorated for the judgment he showed under fire.
4. the forming of an opinion, estimate, notion, or conclusion, as from circumstances presented to the mind: Our judgment as to the cause of his failure must rest on the evidence.
5. the opinion formed: He regretted his hasty judgment.
6. Law .
a. a judicial decision given by a judge or court.
b. the obligation, esp. a debt, arising from a judicial decision.
c. the certificate embodying such a decision and issued against the obligor, esp. a debtor.
7. a misfortune regarded as inflicted by divine sentence, as for sin.
8. ( usually initial capital letter ) Also called Last Judgment, Final Judgment. the final trial of all people, both the living and dead, at the end of the world.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Random House Dictionary

Origin:
1250–1300; ME jug ( g ) ement < OF jugement, equiv. to juge- (s. of jugier to judge) + -ment -ment

—Related forms
in·ter·judg·ment, noun
re·judg·ment, noun

–noun
1. an act or instance of judging.
2. the ability to judge, make a decision, or form an opinion objectively, authoritatively, and wisely, esp. in matters affecting action; good sense; discretion: a man of sound judgment.
3. the demonstration or exercise of such ability or capacity: The major was decorated for the judgment he showed under fire.
4. the forming of an opinion, estimate, notion, or conclusion, as from circumstances presented to the mind: Our judgment as to the cause of his failure must rest on the evidence.
5. the opinion formed: He regretted his hasty judgment.
6. Law .
a. a judicial decision given by a judge or court.
b. the obligation, esp. a debt, arising from a judicial decision.
c. the certificate embodying such a decision and issued against the obligor, esp. a debtor.
7. a misfortune regarded as inflicted by divine sentence, as for sin.
8. ( usually initial capital letter ) Also called Last Judgment, Final Judgment. the final trial of all people, both the living and dead, at the end of the world.

—Synonyms
1. determination. 2. discrimination, discernment, perspicacity; sagacity, wisdom, intelligence, prudence. 6a. verdict, decree.

Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2010.
Cite This Source | Link To judgment

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Collins English Dictionary

Judgment

— n
1. the estimate by God of the ultimate worthiness or unworthiness of the individual (the Particular Judgment ) or of all mankind (the General Judgment or Last Judgment )
2. God's subsequent decision determining the final destinies of all individuals

Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009
Cite This Source

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Word Origin & History

judgment

early 13c., "a pronunciation of an opinion, criticism," from O.Fr. jugement (11c.), from jugier (see judge). Meaning "any authoritative decision" is from early 14c. (the Doomsday sense, "trial of moral beings by God," is mid-14c.); meaning "the forming of an opinion" is from late 14c. Sense of "discernment" is first recorded 1530s

+++++++++++++++++

Legal Dictionary

Main Entry: judg·ment
Variant: also judge·ment /'j&j-m&nt/
Function: noun

1 a : a formal decision or determination on a matter or case by a court; especially : FINAL JUDGMENT in this entry —compare DICTUM, DISPOSITION, FINDING, HOLDING, OPINION, RULING, VERDICT

NOTE: Under Rule 54 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure judgment encompasses a decree and any order from which an appeal lies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cog·no·vit judgment
/käg-'nO-vit-/
: an acknowledgment by a debtor of the existence of a debt with agreement that an adverse judgment may be entered without notice or a hearing : CONFESSION OF JUDGMENT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
consent judgment
: a judgment approved and entered by a court by consent of the parties upon agreement or stipulation : CONSENT DECREE at, DECREE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
declaratory judgment
: a judgment declaring a right or establishing the legal status or interpretation of a law or instrument declaratory judgment that the regulation is unconstitutional> —compare DAMAGE 2, INJUNCTION specific performance at PERFORMANCE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
default judgment
: a judgment entered by a court after an entry of default against a party for failure to appear, to file a pleading, or to take other required procedural steps called also judgment by default —compare decree pro confesso at DECREE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
deficiency judgment
: a judgment in favor of a creditor for the balance of a debt that is not satisfied in full by the security; especially : such a judgment following the foreclosure of a mortgage
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
final judgment
: a judgment that leaves nothing further to be done on a matter except execution
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
in personam judgment
: PERSONAL JUDGMENT in this entry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
in rem judgment
: JUDGMENT IN REM in this entry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment by default
: DEFAULT JUDGMENT in this entry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment in per·so·nam
/-"in-p&r-'sO-n&m, -per-'sO-näm/
; plural judgments in personam
: PERSONAL JUDGMENT in this entry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment in rem
/-in-'rem/
; plural judgments in rem
: a judgment affecting the status of a particular thing (as an item of property) or subject matter : a judgment rendered by a court exercising in rem jurisdiction —compare PERSONAL JUDGMENT in this entry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment ni·si
/-'nI-"sI, -'nE-sE/
; plural judgments nisi
: a judgment that is not final or absolute judgment nisi requiring them to show cause why it should not be made final — Code of Alabama >
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment non ob·stan·te ve·re·dic·to
/-'nän-&b-'stan-tE-"ver-&-'dik-tO, -'non-ob-'stän-tA-"vA-rA-'dEk-tO/
; plural judgments non obstante veredicto
Etymology: non obstante veredicto , from Medieval Latin, notwithstanding the verdict
: JUDGMENT NOTWITHSTANDING THE VERDICT in this entry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment not·with·stand·ing the verdict
: a judgment that may be granted upon a motion by a defendant whose motion for a directed verdict was denied and that sets aside the jury's verdict in favor of a judgment in accordance with the motion for directed verdict called also judgment non obstante veredicto
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment of acquittal
: a judgment that is rendered upon motion of the defendant or the court's own motion at the close of the evidence and that acquits the defendant of one or more of the offenses charged when the evidence is insufficient to sustain a conviction called also directed verdict directed verdict of acquittal
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment on the merits
: a judgment made after consideration of the substantive as distinguished from procedural issues in a case
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
judgment on the pleadings
: SUMMARY JUDGMENT in this entry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
money judgment
: a judgment directing the payment of a sum of money
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ni·hil–di·cit judgment
/'nI-h&l-'di-sit-, -'dI-; 'nE-hil-'dE-kit-/
: a judgment entered against a defendant who has failed to make an effective answer (as because the answer is withdrawn or does not respond to the merits of the plaintiff's case) called also nil dicit judgment
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
personal judgment
: a judgment determining the rights and liabilities of a particular person : a judgment rendered by a court exercising personal jurisdiction over a person —compare JUDGMENT IN REM in this entry
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
summary judgment
: judgment that may be granted upon a party's motion when the pleadings, discovery, and any affidavits show that there is no genuine issue of material fact and that the party is entitled to judgment in its favor as a matter of law
NOTE: According to Rule 56 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, a motion for summary judgment may be made at any time after 20 days following the commencement of the action. Summary judgment may be granted on all or on just part of a case. b : an obligation (as a debt) created by a decree of a court judgment s from uninsured motorists — Harvard Law Review >; also : an official document embodying such a decision or decree c : a declaration by a court of the conviction of a criminal defendant and the punishment to be imposed; specifically : SENTENCE
2 : the action of judging : the mental or intellectual process of forming an opinion or making a decision; also : an opinion or decision so formed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
business judgment
: a decision by a person or body (as a board of directors) having authority to act on behalf of a business and usually marked by reasonableness and the exercise of due care; also : the faculty of making such decisions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sub·sti·tut·ed judgment
: a decision regarding medical treatment made by a person (as a family member) on behalf of a person who is incompetent and unable to decide for himself or herself
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8355
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#416

Post by B. W. » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:42 am

So you want a concrete definition of God’s Judgment regarding Rev 20:11-14. Well what is it?

Let’s look at some characteristics of God himself recorded in the bible regarding how he Judges with his judgments. From these you see the words translated judge/judgment have a broad range of meaning and when pertaining to God Judging in Rev 20, these help define and uncover what his judgment is in Rev 20.

First, to the natural common unsaved person God’s Judgments are past finding out as 1 Co 2:14, 15, 16 states. The fullness of Good’s Judgments are deep and vast as Job 37:23, Psalms 97:2 state and unsearchablely intricate as Romans 11:33 points out. Does this mean we cannot and never understand aspects of how God judges? The answer is no as 1 Co 2:14, 15 - 1 Co 2:16 states and Jesus spoke of concerning the Holy Spirit as John 16:14. We can attain glimpses into his judgments and these are founded upon His own character and nature.

In fact God leaves examples on how He judges in the bible. From these verses, we also learn more about His Character as well. From the bible we learn that the Lord is the divine Judge over all the earth 1 Chronicles 16:33, Psalms 94:2 Isaiah 33:22, Psalms 50:6

We uncover from the bible, what guides God’ judgments as well as the manner in which God judges, the earth, and people as it is written: God judges with perfect righteousness, truth, equity Psalms 96:13, Psalms 98:9, Isaiah 11:3-4, Gen 18:25, Psalms 7:11, Psalms 9:4, 8, 2 Thess 1:8. There is no partiality in God’s judgment/justice either as Deuteronomy16:19 points out.

In all cases this central theme emerges from the bible about God’s Judgments: He Judgments always grants what one sows-they reap just as it is written: Rom 2:5, 6, Psalms 62:12. Jer 17:10, Jer 32:19, Gal 6:7-8 and He is impartial in his justice/Judgments.

Now look at Revelation 20:11, 12, 13 as it pertains to the unsaved – "Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds." NKJV

Since God judges with perfect righteousness, truth, equity, and showing no partiality, therefore, the definition of the God’s judgment in Rev 20 is revealed in the phrase – according to their deeds and what was recorded in the books. Since the people produced ruin and corruption with their lives, he grants them the same equality of ruin and corruption they made in the lake of fire. Extinguishing them into a Non-being state demonstrates partiality; an eternal life sentence does not. Extinguishing them into a Non-being state demonstrates partiality to His word and promises and gifts as well demonstrated from Gen 1:26-Gen 1:28 – that is one point of the bodily resurrection – those saved find Rev 21:1-5 and those unsaved find everlasting cognizant disgrace and contempt as Dan 12:2- Dan 12:3 states.

That is why God’s Judgments are just and why before God does something He warns people (Isaiah 42:9) just as Jesus did concerning Hell: Luke 12:5, Matthew 5:30, note Psalms 9:17

So if you want a concrete pat definition concerning the Judgment of God spoken of in Rev 20 as well as Heb 9:97 it would be this: God judges with perfect righteousness, perfect truth, perfect equity, and perfectly shows no partiality: He perfectly does no wrong, He has no iniquity, He perfectly leaves no stone unturned, He perfectly gives according to ones deeds. He is without reproach. He always remains perfectly true to Himself and will perfectly never deny Himself in executing and implementing any and all His perfect judgments, including the last.-
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8355
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#417

Post by B. W. » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:16 am

+
Let me update the Hypotheses Again as we got off track a bit:

The infinite punishment for finite sins argument would be true only if human beings were created finite. Now if God purposed humanity, beginning at an individual’s birth, to be an eternal being, sin likewise, residing unchecked would likewise be eternally corrupting causing ruin and continually tempting God. This would mean that sin from a ‘designed to be an infinite being’ would indicate that there is no such thing a finite sin. This does not mean that sin was created within a being as that is a different topic than this one at the moment.

So what I am attempting to try to hypothesize is that since God designed individuals to have an eternal spirit (indicated by the bible), if they should fall into sin (which did happen – Rom 5:12 chose to sin), sin would remain within forever unless dealt with by a Just and Equity minded blameless God. There is no such thing as a finite sin for a being that was originally created originally to live infinitely with God. Now due to sin, mortal death entered the world. From Death comes Judgment as Hebrews 9:27 points out.

So the question hinges – does the bible state, objectively according to whom God is, that he originally designed Human beings as eternal beings with a definite beginning? Such a beginning nullifies Plato’s Immortality philosophy, plain and simple. Due to sin entering the world, mortal finite death entered also, but being fashioned according to God's eternal image - the human spiritual state is released and resides onward… Because death through sin entered the world, our fleshly body now also weakens and decays and due to sin has become finite, but the true us, our spiritual being, does not die a finite death.

This brings up another point, if sin never entered the world, through Adam and Eve’s transgression, would Adam and Eve still be alive in the Flesh had they never sinned? If humanity, we were, really designed only as being potential immortal – then how would Adam and Eve had died if they would have never sinned if only designed potentially immortal?

Lastly, please read the following Bible Text, what truths and biblical principles are being revealed to you from these?
The Bible wrote:
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'

Gen 1:26, 28a, Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth….28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Luke 20:38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."

Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts has sworn, saying, "Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass, And as I have purposed, so it shall stand:

Isa 42:5 Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it:

Ec 3:11-14 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end….

Ec 3:14-15 I know that whatever God does, It shall be forever. Nothing can be added to it, And nothing taken from it. God does it, that men should fear before Him. 15 That which is has already been, And what is to be has already been; And God requires an account of what is past

Ec 3:16, 17a, Moreover I saw under the sun: In the place of judgment, Wickedness was there; And in the place of righteousness, Iniquity was there. 17 I said in my heart, "God shall judge the righteous and the wicked, For there is a time there for every purpose and for every work."

Ec 3:18, 19, 20a, I said in my heart, "Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals." 19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.

Ec 3:21, 22a Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth? 22 So I perceived that nothing is better than that a man should rejoice in his own works, for that is his heritage. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?

Ec 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

2 Sa 14:14 For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him.

Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life

Acts 17:25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.

1 Ti 6:13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

Rom 4:17 (as it is written, "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

1Sa 2:6 "The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up.

Isa 26:19 Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Jer 20:11 But the LORD is with me as a mighty, awesome One. Therefore my persecutors will stumble, and will not prevail. They will be greatly ashamed, for they will not prosper. Their everlasting confusion will never be forgotten.

Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.'"

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Acts 24:15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Job 19:25, 26a, For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God,

Jer 9:24 But let him who glories glory in this, That he understands and knows Me, That I am the LORD, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight," says the LORD.


All Bible quotes from the NKJV
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8355
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#418

Post by B. W. » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:31 am

I would like to post these links as they are very well written and help explore the topic of this thread more:

http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/tmsj9f.pdf

Gomes Part One - http://www.onthewing.org/user/Esc_Annih ... %20CRI.pdf

Also this linkk is a good site for basic references for ones own Web library for other subjects as well...

- http://christocentric.yolasite.com/church-issues.php

-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

Dr Shoe
Newbie Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:01 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#419

Post by Dr Shoe » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:06 am

There is no such thing as a finite sin. You punch a grown man, that's bad. You punch a baby its much worse because he's so innocent. You punch God, he is absolutely infinitely innocent. That sin goes on infinitely. The only way to atone is to suffer for eternity or let God who is infinite pay infinitely on your behalf. Whew!

Bill McEnaney
Recognized Member
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2011 11:56 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#420

Post by Bill McEnaney » Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:48 pm

I'm not an expert on hell, but I have a thought or two about whether ancient people needed to figure things out on their own before Christ came. We Catholics believe in what some theologians call the Limbo of the Fathers. The Apostle's Creed, not the Nicene one, tells me that Our Lord "descended into hell." That hell can't be the one for the damned because they stay there forever. Since they stay there forever, Our Lord wouldn't go there to rescue anyone. He certainly wouldn't drop in to say "I told you so," partly because the damned already know why they're in it and that they're too proud to repent. In Chapter 8 of his Gospel, Saint Matthew writes about people who'll be in heaven with Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. Abraham, Issac, and Jacob died before Our Blessed Lord came, and He would hardly blame them for not accepting God the Son who would come to earth after their deaths. They couldn't get into heaven before He died. So they needed somewhere to wait to enter it. Maybe they waited in the Limbo of the Fathers. (See Matthew 8:11)

Oops! I almost forgot to tell you that since a person differs from his corpse, hell, "hades" in Greek, probably doesn't mean "the grave" when the Apostle's Creed says, "He descended into hell."
Last edited by Bill McEnaney on Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:17 am, edited 3 times in total.

Post Reply