Infinite punishment for finite sins

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#361

Post by B. W. » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:08 am

+
As stated before something we can learn from the apostle Peter in Matthew 16:13-23.

Peter had a divine revelation of who Christ is, and Jesus told Peter that by such revelation He will build his Church. Then the next instant Peter told the Lord that He could not go to the cross and the Lord rebuked him (Matthew 16:23).

The meaning is clear, well meaning and intentioned Christians, including Fudge, Pennock, Stott, etc…can fall sway of the evil one. Therefore, how can one be sure they are not? Jesus’ words were clear and reveals how in his response to Peter in Matthew 16:23 – concern is always direct at what is best and most pleasing to men. When doctrine, such as annihilationism does this, one should take warning. Peter was not cast away from the Lord, but rebuked. Peter returned to his senses later on and remained in the Fold of Christ. Our Christian Annihilationist brothers and sisters should really examine their doctrine and see how appealing it is to men. Please also note -in no way am I implying Christian Annihilationist are false brethren but all I can do is ask that they privately search themselves to see under whose sway they are under.

Fudge states this in Link: Fudge-Morey

“. ..Words like die, perish, destroy, consume, and corrupt seem clearly to say what the conditionalist wishes to convey. He does not claim that these words are always used literally. He does note that figurative or metaphorical meanings are possible only if the words have some plain meaning from which the non-literal usage derives its content and power. And the conditionalist is confident that the ordinary man in the street can tell us what those words usually mean to him. Scripture was not written by scientists, the conditionalist notes, or in some technical or mystical language, but in the everyday Greek language of the common citizen, first century A. D.”

Note Fudge states clearly: And the conditionalist is confident that the ordinary man in the street can tell us what those words usually mean to him.

Now the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 2:14 – also 1 Corinthians 1:18 states spiritual subject matter is foolishness to the common man. So if foolishness – then Fudges’ statement is in contradiction of what the bible states. As well as supports that annihilationism is solely concerned with what’s best for man and not God.

This Next Link is for balance to Fudges’ article: Alan W. Gomes article

Note how annihilationist have defined the term ‘Traditional’ and go to great lengths to make the word imply – ignorant, outdated, etc…

This Term must be changed, even by Orthodox Christian responses, as they no longer mean the same to each party.

Note Alan Gomes last closing remarks again show clearly…
Alan Gomes wrote:Pinnock speaks of the "sensitive Christians" who have no choice but to abandon the doctrine of hell in favor of a kinder and gentler fate for the wicked. [43] But as J. I. Packer observes, "the feelings that make people want conditionalism to be true seem to me to reflect, not superior spiritual sensitivity, but secular sentimentalism which assumes that in heaven our feelings about others will be as at present, and our joy in the manifesting of God's justice will be no greater than it is now."

We should never forget that it was the Lord Jesus Christ, more than any other, who enunciated the doctrine of everlasting torment for the lost. Christ had no need to attend a modern sensitivity training workshop; He was "sensitivity incarnate." But He also manifested a perfect balance of love and justice. The same holy God who "shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire" (2 Thess. 1:7) is the God who stooped to become one of us, and bore the vengeance of God's fire in His own body on the tree. If God should open our eyes to understand the terrible price He paid, we would in that instant comprehend the awful guilt of spurning that price. If those who scorned the old covenant were consumed with the fire of this present age, "how much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant" (Heb. 10:29)?



…demonstrate annihilationist concern is solely for the best interest of men – the same Jesus rebuked Peter for having. Well meaning Christians’ can come under the sway of the evil one, still be Christians, and the way to identify false and error in doctrine is to discern if the concern is for what is best for man and compared to what is in God’s Best interest…that serves and reveals that He is always true to Himself…
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#362

Post by Byblos » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:44 am

Sudsy wrote:
Byblos wrote:You obviously can't accept the fact that I do get the difference and I still disagree with you. But that, regardless, is NOT what I'm arguing. What I am arguing is the fact that you obviously still don't see how hypocritical a position it is to demand something of hell believers you do not demand of annihilationists, considering the more important outcome of both is the same, i.e. eternal separation from God. Not sure how much more clearly I can explain it so let's move on (but I reserve the right to call you on it every time you use it :wink:).
Yes, you are correct, I don't see a separation from God in never ending, burning torment being anything close to a separation from God where one ceases to exist. Yes, lets move on (and I too reserve the right to remind 'T' viewers to check out if they have a heart belief in never ending torment or just a head belief which means little) ;) .
I just have one more question for you on the subject, are you by any chance planning on crawling on your hands and knees to save those souls that will walk away from the Gospel because they've been falsely misled into a sense of (eternal) security of nothingness and away from the Gospel? On a second thought, never mind, I think I know the answer already.
Sudsy wrote:So, what does this prove ? What are you getting at ? Some believe Jesus was explaining to both those who had faith in God and those who did not what He had accomplished on the cross. Some believe that those who had previously died without faith, then had a chance to accept this message, while others maintain they heard the message but were not allowed to repent. Myself, I am trusting that God will do whatever it takes to be just and fair to all and if this was the means He used to give OT people a chance to repent, great.
Hmm, forgive my assumption but here I thought you were arguing from the same position (of no consciousness after death) as Bav does. Evidently I was mistaken. Do I take it then that you believe in a soul separate from the body and that on judgment day God will grant us physical bodies to be joined with our souls then to destroy body and soul again (of unbelievers) in the lake of fire?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#363

Post by Byblos » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:52 am

BavarianWheels wrote:
Byblos wrote:So there is more than one interpretation then? I don't know, what do you think the biblical interpretation is?
That's what I'm trying to figure out. May I assume, since you didn't make more clarification, that this then is in line with the biblical interpretation or understanding of 'judgment'?

I'll still allow for B.W.'s input.
.
.
BW can certainly add his own thought but let's assume that it is.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#364

Post by Sudsy » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:24 pm

Byblos wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Byblos wrote:You obviously can't accept the fact that I do get the difference and I still disagree with you. But that, regardless, is NOT what I'm arguing. What I am arguing is the fact that you obviously still don't see how hypocritical a position it is to demand something of hell believers you do not demand of annihilationists, considering the more important outcome of both is the same, i.e. eternal separation from God. Not sure how much more clearly I can explain it so let's move on (but I reserve the right to call you on it every time you use it :wink:).
Yes, you are correct, I don't see a separation from God in never ending, burning torment being anything close to a separation from God where one ceases to exist. Yes, lets move on (and I too reserve the right to remind 'T' viewers to check out if they have a heart belief in never ending torment or just a head belief which means little) ;) .
I just have one more question for you on the subject, are you by any chance planning on crawling on your hands and knees to save those souls that will walk away from the Gospel because they've been falsely misled into a sense of (eternal) security of nothingness and away from the Gospel? On a second thought, never mind, I think I know the answer already.

I doubt you do know my answer so I'll respond :ebiggrin: - people have all kinds of reasons to 'walk away from the Gospel' but none of these hold water. The facts of the gospel, as we see the apostles presented them, do not include any view on the nature of hell. The facts are that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose from the grave and whosoever believes in this good news will be saved. Period. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts the sinner of the guilt of sin, righteousness and judgment to come. I do believe in the need for evangelism as that is what I believe Romans 10:13-15 requires of us. I do care that others experience the joy and eternal life promised in knowing Jesus. I don't think it is necessary to get people to believe by 'scaring the hell out of them', so to speak. Actually in Acts 2:40 Peter emphasized the current aspect of salvation when he said - 'With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." I believe if there is anything to emphasize regarding salvation it is the present corruption in our society that we can escape and have a new heart of peace, joy, love and hope, all the signs of the Spirit within. So, are we to plead with people to be a saved ? I think we will if we are intune with Christ's heart as Peter was. Am I intune to that extent, no. But I do believe anyone filled with the Spirit will be.

Sudsy wrote:So, what does this prove ? What are you getting at ? Some believe Jesus was explaining to both those who had faith in God and those who did not what He had accomplished on the cross. Some believe that those who had previously died without faith, then had a chance to accept this message, while others maintain they heard the message but were not allowed to repent. Myself, I am trusting that God will do whatever it takes to be just and fair to all and if this was the means He used to give OT people a chance to repent, great.
Hmm, forgive my assumption but here I thought you were arguing from the same position (of no consciousness after death) as Bav does. Evidently I was mistaken. Do I take it then that you believe in a soul separate from the body and that on judgment day God will grant us physical bodies to be joined with our souls then to destroy body and soul again (of unbelievers) in the lake of fire?
My current belief, subject to change, as I am more flexible than I might appear :ebiggrin: is that I believe at the resurrection of believers, that Christians will put on immortal bodies. Our spirits are already made immortal when we are spiritually made alive at the new birth. Unbelievers will also be resurrected but in their mortal bodies and will remain mortal for judgment, punishment and the second death where they will be destroyed. But the timing on things outside of time as we know it, I have questions. The word 'eternal' as I see it is something beyond what I can grasp. Is it 'forever without end' or is it 'forever until' and what the until could be is whatever God determines. Regarding punishing I regard it as 'forever until' due to the accompanying belief in destruction. And even if eternal life is 'forever until', I have no problem trusting God on what He may have next in His plans. I can be absent from the body and be present with the Lord in spirit and this could mean immediately with regard to time (i.e. saints are in heaven now shoutin up a storm) or it could mean that my next conscious moment I will be immediately with the Lord whenever this occurs and that could be that we all get there at the same time. I tend to think the latter makes more sense. Whichever, it makes no difference for me.
Last edited by Sudsy on Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#365

Post by August » Mon Nov 01, 2010 1:59 pm

A quick question for all of you...can something that is eternal have a specific starting point in time?

Or are there different concepts of eternal, for example: God being outside of time is eternal, because time simply has no influence on His state of existence, whereas with creation (including humans), in which time had a specific starting point, we as humans view eternity as an endless progression of instances. If the human soul came into existence at the beginning of time, then it may be eternal in that it will experience an endless progression...but what happens if time stops, when creation and the space-time-matter relationship ends (if it ever does)? Does the human soul stop existing then, or does it then exist outside time, like God does?
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#366

Post by Sudsy » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:00 pm

So taking the reasoning that if something is good or appealing to a man then it is contrary to God using the Peter example. Therefore man has no concept whatsoever on what is good or right or wrong. Peter did not understand the bigger picture on this subject and so Jesus corrected him. But now Jesus has left us and sent us the Holy Spirit. He did not leave us with modern day scholar Joe Blow who has foreknowledge on what is to come. Everyone thinks they are guided by the Spirit and still do not agree. So, yes we do need to be careful that ideas like this are not swallowed just because they are given a scripture text to support them. Anyone can fall sway to the evil one - agreed.

I also disagree that the natural man cannot understand many things that are in the scriptures. Spiritual truths require illumination of the Holy Spirit but knowledge of various words and their meaning can come from anyone.
annihilationist concern is solely for the best interest of men
yah we heard that one many times. Boring.
the way to identify false and error in doctrine is to discern if the concern is for what is best for man and compared to what is in God’s Best interest…that serves and reveals that He is always true to Himself…
And 'God's Best interest' and being 'true to Himself' is something that can be understood clearly as one makes a list of certain scriptures on God's character and then applies these to how therefore God must act in a certain way accordingly, right ? There is no possiblity that in this exercise to read something into who God is and what He will do. :shakehead:

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#367

Post by Sudsy » Mon Nov 01, 2010 2:08 pm

August wrote:A quick question for all of you...can something that is eternal have a specific starting point in time?

Or are there different concepts of eternal, for example: God being outside of time is eternal, because time simply has no influence on His state of existence, whereas with creation (including humans), in which time had a specific starting point, we as humans view eternity as an endless progression of instances. If the human soul came into existence at the beginning of time, then it may be eternal in that it will experience an endless progression...but what happens if time stops, when creation and the space-time-matter relationship ends (if it ever does)? Does the human soul stop existing then, or does it then exist outside time, like God does?
Maybe. :lol: Sorry, thats over my head.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#368

Post by B. W. » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:24 pm

Sudsy wrote:
August wrote:A quick question for all of you...can something that is eternal have a specific starting point in time?

Or are there different concepts of eternal, for example: God being outside of time is eternal, because time simply has no influence on His state of existence, whereas with creation (including humans), in which time had a specific starting point, we as humans view eternity as an endless progression of instances. If the human soul came into existence at the beginning of time, then it may be eternal in that it will experience an endless progression...but what happens if time stops, when creation and the space-time-matter relationship ends (if it ever does)? Does the human soul stop existing then, or does it then exist outside time, like God does?
Maybe. :lol: Sorry, thats over my head.
God purposed to design humanity as eternal beings. We have a definite beginning as Gen 2:7 – Ec 12:7 – Zechariah 12:1 Ec 3:17, 21 indicates. Because God gives life to man (Gen 1:26 –eternal image, Job 33:4, Acts 17:25 life to all). He purposed and placed a reflection eternity in the human heart. What God does endures forever. God does not take away life (2 Sam 14:14). God provides means by which the lost can be reconciled back to him (Thru Christ – the doorway back to God) God keeps his word...Will not deny Himself...

There is everlasting bliss in heaven with the Lord or everlasting cognizant punishment for them found beast like…

Any other thing would indeed prove God unable to keep his word spoken in Gen 1:26, 27, 28-31 to both the saved and the dam’d. To the saved what Romans 8:19, 20, 21, 22 speaks of and Revelation 21:1, 3 which Jesus speaks of in Matthew 22:30 regarding the fulfillment of procreation being met. Now what remains is the promise, governing where God assigns (Rev 21:1-3) as God originally designed (Genesis 1:26) reconciled. God keeps his word.

To deny the exercise of dominion even to the dam’d would prove God unable to be true to His own standards of being true to himself in all things spoken – promised… Therefore a place had to be made for the Devil and his Angels (Matt 25:41) where their exercise of dominion is made manifest for what it is and its purposes exposed. Likewise the dam’d will be sent there as well to live according to the dominion they impose (reap what they have sown) eternally as that is how God purposes it, first, within the existing Hell and later in the Lake of Fire. Doing so breaks not one word or promise of God. God does not deny himself or any gifts - or promises - or his own word...

For an Annihilationist, who seeks only what is best for man, this brief summary will be claimed to go over their heads and mocked. All I can ask is for the reader to search it out – take the time to do so – it is scripturally sound and verified by Jesus’ own words, concerning, eternal punishment, eternal fire, worm dies not – fire not quenched.

The tactical game of the Devil is to have God deny himself by pitting God’s own character, nature, standards, attributes against God in order to trip God up so the devil can exalt his throne above God’s. That is why, one reason why I should say, God will not deny Himself – He will not cease being God! Amen! Sadly Annihilationism seeks to have God deny himself either unknowingly, or knowingly to have God deny who He is as God that will...

So ask yourself why is this doctrine of Annihilationism is shared by mainstream non-Christian cults?

Jesus said – a tree is known by its fruit.
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

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Post by Sudsy » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:25 pm

B. W. wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
August wrote:A quick question for all of you...can something that is eternal have a specific starting point in time?

Or are there different concepts of eternal, for example: God being outside of time is eternal, because time simply has no influence on His state of existence, whereas with creation (including humans), in which time had a specific starting point, we as humans view eternity as an endless progression of instances. If the human soul came into existence at the beginning of time, then it may be eternal in that it will experience an endless progression...but what happens if time stops, when creation and the space-time-matter relationship ends (if it ever does)? Does the human soul stop existing then, or does it then exist outside time, like God does?
Maybe. :lol: Sorry, thats over my head.
God purposed to design humanity as eternal beings. We have a definite beginning as Gen 2:7 – Ec 12:7 – Zechariah 12:1 Ec 3:17, 21 indicates. Because God gives life to man (Gen 1:26 –eternal image, Job 33:4, Acts 17:25 life to all). He purposed and placed a reflection eternity in the human heart. What God does endures forever. God does not take away life (2 Sam 14:14). God provides means by which the lost can be reconciled back to him (Thru Christ – the doorway back to God) God keeps his word...Will not deny Himself...

There is everlasting bliss in heaven with the Lord or everlasting cognizant punishment for them found beast like…

Any other thing would indeed prove God unable to keep his word spoken in Gen 1:26, 27, 28-31 to both the saved and the dam’d. To the saved what Romans 8:19, 20, 21, 22 speaks of and Revelation 21:1, 3 which Jesus speaks of in Matthew 22:30 regarding the fulfillment of procreation being met. Now what remains is the promise, governing where God assigns (Rev 21:1-3) as God originally designed (Genesis 1:26) reconciled. God keeps his word.

To deny the exercise of dominion even to the dam’d would prove God unable to be true to His own standards of being true to himself in all things spoken – promised… Therefore a place had to be made for the Devil and his Angels (Matt 25:41) where their exercise of dominion is made manifest for what it is and its purposes exposed. Likewise the dam’d will be sent there as well to live according to the dominion they impose (reap what they have sown) eternally as that is how God purposes it, first, within the existing Hell and later in the Lake of Fire. Doing so breaks not one word or promise of God. God does not deny himself or any gifts - or promises - or his own word...

For an Annihilationist, who seeks only what is best for man, this brief summary will be claimed to go over their heads and mocked. All I can ask is for the reader to search it out – take the time to do so – it is scripturally sound and verified by Jesus’ own words, concerning, eternal punishment, eternal fire, worm dies not – fire not quenched.

The tactical game of the Devil is to have God deny himself by pitting God’s own character, nature, standards, attributes against God in order to trip God up so the devil can exalt his throne above God’s. That is why, one reason why I should say, God will not deny Himself – He will not cease being God! Amen! Sadly Annihilationism seeks to have God deny himself either unknowingly, or knowingly to have God deny who He is as God that will...

So ask yourself why is this doctrine of Annihilationism is shared by mainstream non-Christian cults?

Jesus said – a tree is known by its fruit.
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Repeat, repeat. Yes, we have heard this all before many times.

B. W. wrote: -
I am only going to make a few points to the readers to ponder and move on, my intent is for the Reader to think with reason on these matters through and reach their own conclusions…
A few points .... and move on. What happened to the 'move on'. We just get repetitions of something we have read many times before.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#370

Post by J.Davis » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:38 pm

B. W. wrote:To deny the exercise of dominion even to the dam’d would prove God unable to be true to His own standards of being true to himself in all things spoken – promised… Therefore a place had to be made for the Devil and his Angels (Matt 25:41) where their exercise of dominion is made manifest for what it is and its purposes exposed. Likewise the dam’d will be sent there as well to live according to the dominion they impose (reap what they have sown) eternally as that is how God purposes it, first, within the existing Hell and later in the Lake of Fire. Doing so breaks not one word or promise of God. God does not deny himself or any gifts - or promises - or his own word...
Well said B.W!

A major point in this is that the unsaved have no clue about what life is like as a truly saved Christian. And the more Christians fellowship with God, the more amazing life with him becomes (and I do mean beyond amazing).

One thing to consider...God said that when Adam and Eve bit the fruit that they would die. And how bad is that death from an unsaved persons perspective? If you are truly saved and fellowship with God then you know it was Really bad. But if you are not saved then it is normal, just how life is. But to God, who knows perfect peace, joy, love and no sin etc. That death was extremely bad, seeing his creation fall into pain, corruption and the results of sin. To Him, it was like his children (a prince and princess) became lowly outcast, sinners, like the angels who fell from glory. God knows the glorious life his creation was meant to have. To him we all live a lowly shameful life that is beneath what we should live. But Humans are accustom to living a sinful life and the results of that life are normal to all who live in sin.

As an example....We may look at some people in the world, seeing that they are poor, unhealthy and do not have what we consider some of the good things or even basic necessities in life and think to ourselves that it is tragic, because we have a life with clean water, healthy food, good health care and on top of that we have all our stuff (cars, computers, nice houses etc). But that poor person is most likely use to the life they live, and if they have never had wealth or known a better life than the one they live than they will have no clue of what they are missing and they will find satisfaction within their standard of living.

The unsaved will be used to a sinful life, they do not know God or what he offers. They do not know how to let Him cleanse sins and they will be use to the results of sin, they will have a need to deal with their sin in the way they are accustom to. Everything belongs to God, the earth is God's and he has plans for it. But, (as B.W pointed out) God made hell for Satan and those like him go there as well. Even now, from God’s perspective the unsaved live shameful, corrupt, miserable lives, constantly causing themselves pain. And even now, drug addicts and others live what many of you would say are corrupt, miserable lives, constantly causing themselves pain. People live tragic lives but when is the last time you put someone out of their miseries because you felt it would be better than letting them live as they do. Eternal life is normal to God and his angels just as temporary life on earth is normal to us. We always have those less fortunate but that does not mean that it’s ok to kill them.

Why Annihilationist think that murdering the less fortunate (from their perspective) is ok is beyond me, it’s disturbing. Using their reasoning, all who suffer on earth (from the perspective of those who are more fortunate) should be put out of their miseries.
Huh, a beam in my eye? No, you're mistaken. Let's just say that this patch keeps things....interesting.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#371

Post by Sudsy » Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:48 pm

Why Annihilationist think that murdering the less fortunate (from their perspective) is ok is beyond me, it’s disturbing. Using their reasoning, all who suffer on earth (from the perspective of those who are more fortunate) should be put out of their miseries.
Now that is one of the most outrageous stretches of logic I have heard yet. When will you guys ever give up with your put downs of other Christian's views on the nature of hell ? Do you lay awake at night and dream up these slams ? Why can't you just state what you believe and trust that people can decide for themselves what to believe ? You are treating people as incompetent and unable to take what is said and decide for themselves ? Or perhaps you are insecure about what you believe and are repeating it to convince yourselves ? I'm beginning to think this must be why all this repetition. It is not to convince others but rather to convince yourself because of the various holes in the logic.

And regarding sin. Let me explain something to you about sin. There is great pleasure in sinning. The scriptures say this. But this pleasure is only for a season. And sometimes that 'season' spans an entire lifetime. We didn't choose to come into this world and furthermore we didn't choose to enter it as sinners. We were automatically programmed to sin. And so when we sin we can find great pleasure in doing what comes naturally to do. In many people's lives the pleasures of sin have very little adverse consequences and this continues throughout their lives and many live much more happy lives than many Christians. So don't hand me all this nonsense about sinners living miserable lives. Some do but many do not. Actually many live much more enjoyable lives than many believers who live legalistic lives and know little of the abundant life they could be living. You need to get out more and see what enjoyments people are experiencing in their sinning.

Regarding Christians, I believe there is an abundant way of living that is able to live through the various forms of suffering sin brings into the world. Do most Christians live in this abundant living ? I don't think so or the world would sit up and take notice of a way of living better than the one they are experiencing. But what the world often sees is Christians straddling a fence, one foot in the world and one foot in Christinanity and often appearing quite miserable. Or fighting over secondary, non-essential doctrines as we are doing here and insisting on being correct.

Some people would be glad to continue in their sin into the next life if it meant more fun with their friends. However, since God is holy, to have fellowship with Him, each sinner must turn his back on deliberate sinning. If they do not then scripture clearly indicates that God will punish and destroy them so that all traces of sin and evil will once and for all be removed from existence. And in so doing - 'God does not deny himself or any gifts - or promises - or his own word...'.. What this does is reflect the goodness and mercy and love of God to allow people to be destroyed and not go through such endless pain and suffering. When an interpretation of scripture violates our God given conscience then I think we better think twice about being right.

When statements are made such as 'To deny the exercise of dominion even to the dam’d would prove God unable to be true to His own standards of being true to himself in all things spoken – promised…' as if this punches a hole in the 'A' view is nonsense. God can exercise dominion as He chooses to and not how man thinks He must. I get the impression that some people are going to really be put out with God when they find out He doesn't live up to their expectations of what He is going to do. All this twisting and spinning that people will ultimately choose endless torment over eternal life with God when it is made completely clear what the choices are, is more nonsense.

I'm looking forward to the day when every trace of evil is removed from existence and God is trully all in all. And we may all be surprised at how gracious God will be to many that we currently might be writing off. And as Billy Graham said he expects this to include people from various religions of the world. He just might be right.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#372

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:13 pm

Sudsy wrote:I'm looking forward to the day when every trace of evil is removed from existence and God is trully all in all. And we may all be surprised at how gracious God will be to many that we currently might be writing off. And as Billy Graham said he expects this to include people from various religions of the world. He just might be right.
Can you provide a reference for Graham's statement/s? I am certain extrapolation is happening here.

It at least needs qualification, since how you have put it would lead one to think Graham a blanket pluralist.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#373

Post by B. W. » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:51 pm

Sudsy wrote:...When statements are made such as 'To deny the exercise of dominion even to the dam’d would prove God unable to be true to His own standards of being true to himself in all things spoken – promised…' as if this punches a hole in the 'A' view is nonsense. God can exercise dominion as He chooses to and not how man thinks He must. I get the impression that some people are going to really be put out with God when they find out He doesn't live up to their expectations of what He is going to do. All this twisting and spinning that people will ultimately choose endless torment over eternal life with God when it is made completely clear what the choices are, is more nonsense...
The Long Standing Tradition of ‘A’ is self evident in its effort to have God deny who He is, deny his promises...

Where in the bible does it state - God will not keep His word or fail to perform what he promises and spoke?

Does not the annihilationist understand that God is absolutely Just even to the unjust. Jesus stated that God causes the rain to fall on the just and unjust (Matt 5:45). The psalmist states in Psalms 145:9 his tender mercies are over all His works. Psalms 36:6 - Psalms 104:14 – Jonah 4:11 – Acts 14:17 and Acts 17:25 all say what about God being just to all? God’s sense of justice is far-far-far above our own sense of justice. God is absolutely equitious to the unjust and just as the bible reveals.

Now look at these verses that teach what principle about God’s Character?

Isaiah 55:9, 10, 11- "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. 10 "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, 11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Isaiah 46:10, 11 - "Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure, 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it..."

Isaiah 43:13 - Indeed before the day was, I am He; And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand; I work, and who will reverse it?"

Isaiah 14:27 - "For the LORD of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?"

Psalms 33:11 - "The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of His heart to all generations."

Psalms 33:4 - "For the word of the LORD is right, and all His work is done in truth."


God said what in Gen 1:26: "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

And annihilationist contends that God will not keep his word, nor keep his plans, to all generations? That God is not absolutely just even to the unjust. Just done so one keeps blindly true to the Annihilationist Tradition that stretches back to ancient Greek atomisms non-existence after death idea, it appears many annihilationist are more willing to sacrifice God's own integrity revealed within the bible - all in exchange for man's Tradition of serving what is best for man.

Job 40:6, 7, 8 - Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: 7 Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me 8 Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?"

Note: Bible quote are from NKJV-
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#374

Post by Sudsy » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:57 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Sudsy wrote:I'm looking forward to the day when every trace of evil is removed from existence and God is trully all in all. And we may all be surprised at how gracious God will be to many that we currently might be writing off. And as Billy Graham said he expects this to include people from various religions of the world. He just might be right.
Can you provide a reference for Graham's statement/s? I am certain extrapolation is happening here.

It at least needs qualification, since how you have put it would lead one to think Graham a blanket pluralist.
As previously posted on Oct 11th on this thread -

Since Billy Graham was referred to, here are a couple quotes by Billy when in an interview with Robert Schuller -

"I think that hell essentially is separation from God forever. And that is the worst hell that I can think of. But I think people have a hard time believing God is going to allow people to burn in literal fire forever. I think the fire that is mentioned in the Bible is a burning thirst for God that can never be quenched." Billy continued - "Jesus used three words to describe hell. ...The third word that He used is 'fire.' Jesus used this symbol over and over. This could be literal fire, as many believe. Or IT COULD BE SYMBOLIC. ...I've often thought that this fire could possibly be a burning thirst for God that is never quenched. What a terrible fire that would be-- never to find satisfaction, joy, or fulfillment!"

Even Billy strayed from traditional teachings on hell.

He also said - "God is calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they’ve been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don’t have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are saved, and that they’re going to be with us in heaven."

Another straying from traditional exclusive views. Schuller was 'thrilled' to hear Bill state this.


More on this interview -

Dr. Schuller: "What I hear you saying is that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into a human heart and soul and life even if they've been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying?"

Dr. Graham: "Yes it is because I believe that. I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, have never heard of Jesus but they've believed in their hearts that there is a God and they tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived."

Dr. Schuller: "This is fantastic. I'm so thrilled to hear you say that. There's a wideness in God's mercy.

Dr. Graham: There is. There definitely is."

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#375

Post by Sudsy » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:32 am

B. W. wrote:
Sudsy wrote:...When statements are made such as 'To deny the exercise of dominion even to the dam’d would prove God unable to be true to His own standards of being true to himself in all things spoken – promised…' as if this punches a hole in the 'A' view is nonsense. God can exercise dominion as He chooses to and not how man thinks He must. I get the impression that some people are going to really be put out with God when they find out He doesn't live up to their expectations of what He is going to do. All this twisting and spinning that people will ultimately choose endless torment over eternal life with God when it is made completely clear what the choices are, is more nonsense...
The Long Standing Tradition of ‘A’ is self evident in its effort to have God deny who He is, deny his promises...

Regardless of how many times you repeat yourself, no one is asking God to 'deny who He is'. It is only 'self evident' to those who have your locked in, personal, interpretation of who God is. IMO, your whole line of reasoning and this little phrase you keep giving us is quite suspect. Many believe God did not make man immortal. God does not make everything last forever in the way you view forever without end. He always lives up to what He says He will do. And Annihilationists believe that so quit with the lies. You should know better and be ashamed to be protraying another valid, scholarly view on the nature of punishment to be so evil. Shame, shame on you. :shakehead:

Where in the bible does it state - God will not keep His word or fail to perform what he promises and spoke?

Nowhere in my bible. And no one on the 'A' view is suggesting that in any way. One really needs to stick their head in the sand not to acknowledge that. Another repeated phrase to suggest the 'A' view is saying that God is a liar. How shameful to go so far as this. A total lack of respect for anyone's view but your own.

Does not the annihilationist understand that God is absolutely Just even to the unjust. Jesus stated that God causes the rain to fall on the just and unjust (Matt 5:45). The psalmist states in Psalms 145:9 his tender mercies are over all His works. Psalms 36:6 - Psalms 104:14 – Jonah 4:11 – Acts 14:17 and Acts 17:25 all say what about God being just to all? God’s sense of justice is far-far-far above our own sense of justice. God is absolutely equitious to the unjust and just as the bible reveals.

Yes, God is just and He has given us a brain to use and a conscience to develop laws of justice from His examples of justice. To try to spin God's justice to force God to perform in the way you think He must is to deny God His right to be just. How do you like some of the same treatment you are giving others ? And then you refer to a verse regarding His 'tender mercies'. It can be argued that being merciful is to allow people to be free of God completely if that is their ultimate choice and destruction does just that in a very loving way. If I get sick and there is no hope of recovery, I certainly don't want anyone preserving my existence. I glady will accept the merciful act of letting me go (pulling the plug, letting me die, destroying me) rather than keeping me alive to suffer and suffer and suffer. :shakehead:


Now look at these verses that teach what principle about God’s Character?

Here we go again. B.W. using his methods that we have been through before many times in this thread that prove nothing and then are used with lies regarding other believers. Shame, shame.

Isaiah 55:9, 10, 11- "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. 10 "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, 11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

Isaiah 46:10, 11 - "Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure, 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it..."

Isaiah 43:13 - Indeed before the day was, I am He; And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand; I work, and who will reverse it?"

Isaiah 14:27 - "For the LORD of hosts has purposed, and who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?"

Psalms 33:11 - "The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of His heart to all generations."

Psalms 33:4 - "For the word of the LORD is right, and all His work is done in truth."


God said what in Gen 1:26: "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

And annihilationist contends that God will not keep his word, nor keep his plans, to all generations? That God is not absolutely just even to the unjust. Just done so one keeps blindly true to the Annihilationist Tradition that stretches back to ancient Greek atomisms non-existence after death idea, it appears many annihilationist are more willing to sacrifice God's own integrity revealed within the bible - all in exchange for man's Tradition of serving what is best for man.

Lies, lies, lies. Yes, lies B.W. You need to be called on the extent you take to bash annihilationists. You throw in that they are still Christians and then you call them a bunch of liars. Annihilationists believe no such thing and you know it but you are trying to get readers to believe they do. Annihilationists accept all of these scriptures you use but you twist their application to suit your arguments. I wouldn't go across the street to hear one of your sermons with that kind of use of scriptures. Again shame, shame on you. You really need to apologize.

Job 40:6, 7, 8 - Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: 7 Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me 8 Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified?"

Note: Bible quote are from NKJV-
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Good verse B.W., so would you ? Would you insist that God live up to your expectations on the nature of hell ? Would you condemn God if He didn't ? Would you insist of God that He must judge in the way that you have interpreted certain scriptures ? Or would you in humility recognize that God alone knows what He will do in the end and what He will do will be in accordance with who He really is ?

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