Infinite punishment for finite sins

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#256

Post by B. W. » Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:09 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:I understand that. That's however, why I believe you start with the Gospels, Jesus words, model and person and you make that the lens you look through. Otherwise you end up at times trying to reconcile attributes garnered from different locations, context and it becomes an exercise in intellectual reconciliation rather than recognizing the many of those reconciliations are found in Christ alone.
Not quite an exercise in intellectual reconciliation - it does land right back onto Christ...

There is a reason for the vagueness I've been using...

Here is a hint... Luke 24:27

For example what Jesus stated in Matthew 25:46 uses the word eternal in two places in the same context, grammar, word order – this lines up elsewhere in the OT as well. If one of the Eternal’s used in Matthew 25:46 means a short duration of time – it must mean that in both uses. This rule out the secret knowledge Gnostics’ used in their interpreting scriptures.

Either it means Some will receive short duration of life (bliss) and others short duration of recompense. Or it means. Some will receive everlasting life or everlasting recompense…

Guess it comes down – can a person take Jesus at his word or will they take away from his word by inserting volumes of human knowledge to explain away his words.

One last note, often times, in the OT, Jesus himself is speaking, but that is better left for the Trinity discussion thread than here. Even some of the OT quotes describing who God is are spoken by Jesus in the OT… (Exodus 3:14, "And God (Elohim) said unto Moses: 'I AM THAT I AM'; and He said: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you."JPS


One more Point to consider:
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:3 NASB

(Know in Greek is writen in the Present Active Subjunctive with a Subject clause - 3 person (they) reads as: They keep on knowing )

"This is eternal life, that they may keep on Knowing You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." John 17:3 word meaning incerted
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#257

Post by J.Davis » Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:59 pm

Sudsy wrote:
Annihilationist would say: Pay the penalty of eternal annihilation away from the presence of the Lord. How can nothing be away from the Lord or you, since nothingness is nowhere? How can nothing be far away since nothing is nowhere and no place so how can eternal annihilation exist away from anybody if it is nothingness? How far is nothing from you?
Or, during the process of annihilation until destroyed in the lake of fire, they will be away from the presence of the Lord.
Just to be more clear about it. It does not just say away from his presence. It says:2 Thessalonians 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Eternal destruction away from his presence and from the glory of His power…

Also, it looks like Jesus will make it to the big event, so no...the unsaved are still there after Judgment …For eternity.

Revelation 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Huh, a beam in my eye? No, you're mistaken. Let's just say that this patch keeps things....interesting.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#258

Post by BavarianWheels » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:03 am

J.Davis wrote:2 Thessalonians 1:6-9- “6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Now, Paul uses the word affliction meaning- Affliction-1.distress: a condition of great physical or mental distress.
All this fits well with being thrown into a lake of fire until dead.
J.Davis wrote:Back to 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 Pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

Annihilationist would say: Pay the penalty of eternal annihilation away from the presence of the Lord. How can nothing be away from the Lord or you, since nothingness is nowhere? How can nothing be far away since nothing is nowhere and no place so how can eternal annihilation exist away from anybody if it is nothingness? How far is nothing from you?
You're wrong. The interpretation is simple...so simple you might not get it. Eternal destruction. Destroyed for eternity. Dead=away from.
What problem do you have with the simplicity?
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#259

Post by Sudsy » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:54 am

More observations - another Matthew 25:46 interpretation. Consider that the concern of this parable is not to define the nature of either eternal life or of eternal death, but rather to say that there are two destinies. The nature of each of these is not spoken of here.

But even if it was speaking of the nature of the two destinies being never ending/eternal, death by annihilation in the Lake of Fire would equate to being eternal in its consequence. Our death here on earth is only temporal, however, the second death will be pernmanent or eternal as there is no reversing it and no coming back from it.

And so in studying a subject one should look also at the many other scriptures that may shed more light on the nature of eternal destiny. Here are some verses indication an eternal destruction possibility as Rich Deem provides here - http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/hell.html

Matthew 7:13, John 5:24, John 8:51, Romans 6:21, 23, 9:22, 2 Corinthians 7:10, Philippians 3:18-19, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, James 1:15, 1 John 3:14, 2 Peter 3:7, 3:16, Revelation 2:11, 19:20, 20:6, 10, 14-15, 21:8

As Rich says -
It is possible that hell will involve both torment (until the day of judgment) and eventual destruction.
Are these volumes of human knowledge or scriptures ? Who can be trusted to know the absolute truth ? Something to consider.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

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Post by B. W. » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:00 am

Sudsy wrote:More observations - another Matthew 25:46 interpretation. Consider that the concern of this parable is not to define the nature of either eternal life or of eternal death, but rather to say that there are two destinies. The nature of each of these is not spoken of here.

But even if it was speaking of the nature of the two destinies being never ending/eternal, death by annihilation in the Lake of Fire would equate to being eternal in its consequence. Our death here on earth is only temporal, however, the second death will be pernmanent or eternal as there is no reversing it and no coming back from it.

And so in studying a subject one should look also at the many other scriptures that may shed more light on the nature of eternal destiny. Here are some verses indication an eternal destruction possibility as Rich Deem provides here - Matthew 7:13, John 5:24, John 8:51, Romans 6:21, 23, 9:22, 2 Corinthians 7:10, Philippians 3:18-19, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, James 1:15, 1 John 3:14, 2 Peter 3:7, 3:16, Revelation 2:11, 19:20, 20:6, 10, 14-15, 21:810

As Rich says -
It is possible that hell will involve both torment (until the day of judgment) and eventual destruction.
Are these volumes of human knowledge or scriptures ? Who can be trusted to know the absolute truth ? Something to consider.
I have found it ironic how people will try to triangulate staff against each other. The excellent book, Hell Under Fire describes all sides of the debate in an honest and fair manner, just as Rich presented, leaving the reader to decide between the evidences.

και απελεύσονται (And will go off) οὗτοι (these)

εις κόλασιν αιώνιον, (into punishment eternal)

οι δε (the but)

δίκαιοι εις ζωην αιώνιον (righteous into life eternal)

The same exact same word "αιώνιον," "aionion" is used to describe both the duration of punishment as well as of the duration of life for God’s righteous - those whom he has saved.

The same word describes the same states of affairs for both parties mentioned. They agree in grammar, both agree with the preposition εἰς ice. All words end in same Greek letter. Both phrases 'into eternal Life’ and ‘into eternal punishment’ are all written in the Accusative Singular Feminine structure and all are in agreement with both nouns (punishment, Life) and both adjectives (Eternal) that are used.

Therefore what the word eternal meaning applies to both. If the punishment mentioned is eternal, then so is the life mentioned.

If, as the annihilationist or universalist says: ‘punishment is not eternal,’ then neither is the life.

You cannot pick and choose how the word is applied in this verse to suit your own theology.
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#261

Post by B. W. » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:08 am

I am again presenting the current summaries we have so far which objectively describe God’s character and nature forreasy reference...
B. W. wrote:
J.Davis wrote:Ok, I went through B.W’s list of scriptures… But it was a quick run through, no meditation or checking the context of where the scriptures came from (trusting that they say what they seem to say by themselves). So take it easy on me… B.W… :esmile: .

God is Holy, his awesome power, skill, wisdom and love can be seen in all things he created. If we have no faith in God then he must do as he said concerning the consequence of our lack of faith, he must always be perfect and true to his character.

God does not lie, make mistakes, change his mind and He always keeps his word. When God makes a promise, He keeps it, it is impossible for Him to lie so we can feel safe in the fact that we will have what he promised.

God does not change, he is a strong and stable foundation, his work is perfect, he is fair in all thing, and never unjust. God is not evil or unjust, we get fair punishment or reward according to what we have done. God will never act in an evil way, he will always do what is fair (and he will never change his law).

God is good, gives security, protection and there is no evil in him. Is God being unjust (in this case harm unjustly)? Or does he do evil? In both cases the answer is nooooooo.

The Lord is with us, he will do no evil, he will punish the unjust/wicked. Know that God is to be respected, do what is right concerning Gods laws, because he will. God will follow his laws no matter what, regardless of who you are, he is just.

God’s ways and understanding is far above ours and what he wants done will be done. There are no other God’s, just one (I Am/Jesus) he tells the coarse of events to come (the future). What he has set in place will stand…he will do what he wishes. God has all power and authority above all, he will judge all justly and fair no matter who you are, his law is absolute.

God is patient and can do all things (awesome)! And God will give those who are evil the punishment they deserve and he will make no exceptions. Well, that’s pretty much how I would say it…The wicked will have no peace.

We will never fully understand God, he is perfect in judgment and completely fair, he does not harm without just cause. God will judge everything…good or evil. God knows the truth, and makes it know to us, he will give all what they deserve.
B. W. wrote:Thanks JDavis for your summary

Here is my summary along with a few other scriptures references that state objectively God’s Character and Nature that were noted posted as cited in refernce.

Summary:

God is Holy, His work is perfect; for all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He. God is all mighty and awesome and there is no unrighteousness in Him. God is the Living eternal God – sovereign – absolutely mighty, absolutely wise, all knowing…

The Almighty is beyond our mortal comprehension; He is excellent in power. In judgment and abundant justice; He does not oppress. There is no other god /gods. There is none like him. Yahweh Elohim is Echaud – none like him… God cannot deny himself.

God will never do wickedly, never do wickedness, nor commit iniquity. The Lord will never pervert justice. The Lord is righteous in all his ways. Yahweh is upright; He is like unto a stable rock, always faithful, unchanging in his ways, solid, a tall tower of safety and shelter. God will never deny himself. God always does everything justly and right.

God is a God of counsel unmoving, in his intentions by reflecting - considering all things (Hebrews 6:17). God’s counsel stands and he will do all his pleasure. He keeps his word, and performs it. It is impossible for God to lie. He reneges on no gift or calling or promise. He will accomplish his word in the task for which he sent. His wisdom and knowledge is unsearchable

God brings His justice to light; He never fails. There is no iniquity with the LORD. God shows no partiality, nor will he take a bribe. God test and searches the heart. The LORD is slow to anger and great in power. He will not at all acquit the wicked.

God holds one to account: God will bring every work into judgment. He repays man according to his work, and makes man to find a reward according to his own ways. God gives every man according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings.

God gives life to man (Gen 2:7 –eternal image, Job 33:4, Acts 17:25 life to all). He placed his eternity in the human heart. What God does endures forever. God does not take away life (2 Sam 14:14). God provides means by which the lost can be reconciled back to him.

God is good to all. God hates every evil path, iniquity, sin. God hates. God loves. God shows mercy. God takes vengeance. God jealously protects. He is a God of perfect judgment. God is perfect/blameless in all his ways.

God chastises the righteous (whom the Lord Loves he chastens (Hebrews chapter 12 for details), his anger does not abide forever on His righteous, he chastens for a purpose, he forgives (note 1 John 1:9) those he declared righteous and cleanses them.

God forsakes the wicked granting them banishment/thrust out to live according to their own devises (Psalms 9:16, 17 – Isaiah 3:11 – Proverbs 14:32 - Psalms 11:4, 5, 6, 7 – Jeremiah 17:10).

Anyone can add to the list. I’ll give a little more in due time, then from whomever’s summaries we have – we’ll being to learn truths about the Lord…
canuckster1127 wrote:...why I believe you start with the Gospels, Jesus words, model and person and you make that the lens you look through
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#262

Post by Sudsy » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:35 am

If, as the annihilationist or universalist says: ‘punishment is not eternal,’ then neither is the life.
As it may also be observed that ' into eternal punishment' and 'into eternal life' are both described as 'eternal' places (outside of time as we know it) to enter into but this does not necessarily represent the nature of these destinies as both having the same 'never ending' time frames. Just as they are opposite destiniations, they can very likely have contrasting time frames of duration and yet still be called 'eternal' - destinies outside of time as we know it.

Just for clarity, when I posted -
Are these volumes of human knowledge or scriptures ? Who can be trusted to know the absolute truth ? Something to consider.
I was not referring to any specific individuals here but rather that any person can refer to scriptures for a support of a view and we are still left with deciding which view is absolute truth or perhaps just remain undecided and trust that God will do what He will do for His glory regardless of what we understand.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#263

Post by B. W. » Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:11 pm

Sudsy wrote:
If, as the annihilationist or universalist says: ‘punishment is not eternal,’ then neither is the life.
As it may also be observed that ' into eternal punishment' and 'into eternal life' are both described as 'eternal' places (outside of time as we know it) to enter into but this does not necessarily represent the nature of these destinies as both having the same 'never ending' time frames. Just as they are opposite destiniations, they can very likely have contrasting time frames of duration and yet still be called 'eternal' - destinies outside of time as we know it.

Just for clarity, when I posted -
Are these volumes of human knowledge or scriptures ? Who can be trusted to know the absolute truth ? Something to consider.
I was not referring to any specific individuals here but rather that any person can refer to scriptures for a support of a view and we are still left with deciding which view is absolute truth or perhaps just remain undecided and trust that God will do what He will do for His glory regardless of what we understand.
Let's try this... add your definition to the text by inserting the prefix- non to everlasting/eternal: non-everlasting... and see how it sounds...

Mat 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the non-everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels..."

Mat 25:46, "And these will go away into non-everlasting punishment, but the righteous into non-eternal life."

Mat 18:8 "If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the non-everlasting fire."

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with non-everlasting burnings?"

2 Th 1:8-9, "...in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with non-everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power..."

Heb 6:2, “of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of non-eternal judgment.”

Jude 1:7, "as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of non-eternal fire."

Rev 14:11, “And the smoke of their torment ascends non-forever and non-ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Rev 20:10,15 - "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night non-forever and non-ever....And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

So the question comes down to this:

Does the annihilationist translation of the words destruction, perish, everlasting, and eternal as used in their personally selected texts square up to God’s character and nature?

As for you statement regarding truth…

John 16:13, “However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come...”

Do you have faith? What is it affixed too?
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#264

Post by Sudsy » Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:41 am

Does the annihilationist translation of the words destruction, perish, everlasting, and eternal as used in their personally selected texts square up to God’s character and nature?
Yes, very much so and in my view,and the view of many other believers in Christ, is much more reflective of God's character and nature than any thoughts of never ending punishment as a just sentence for anyone. God has given us a conscience and a sense of right and wrong and fairness and we should use those when interpreting scripture. Jesus appealed to man's ability to comprehend what was fair and just when He spoke to people when He was here on earth. He still speaks to us if we will only listen.
Do you have faith? What is it affixed too?
I sure do but it is not placed in an interpretation of man as to how God must act according to certain beliefs about what scripture is saying about His character and nature or an interpretation of hell being unending torment but rather in Christ alone. He alone is the Truth. I believe what scripture says about us seeing through a glass darkly and only knowing in part and so I don't trust any man's interpretation of texts that are clearly challenged to be suspect by other texts. However, the texts you provide, I say amen to them all and yet they do nothing to prove unending torment is an undeniable fact.

Some believers may choose to believe they have somehow arrived at a place of knowing all truth or perhaps must see all things as black or white, that is their choice. Perhaps they are convinced they have the truth revealed in an area regardless of what others also sense they have had revealed to them that is not the same. There are very elite sounding interpretations and strong convictions from the traditionalist, annihilationist and universalist camps. But all can't be right and I suspect to some degree they all only see in part.

'Eternity placed in our hearts', I believe and what I read as most scholars interpretation, is an awareness that this life, this little blip in time, is not all there is and everyone has this put in their awareness by God if they will only heed it. Scripture does not say anywhere that we are immortal beings that will live unending in either heaven or a lake a fire. God will destroy this earth, as we know it, and death and hell and satan and unrepentant sinners and all effects of sin, all pain and suffering and loss, etc, etc. He will create a new heaven and a new earth. He will give immortality only to those who have put their faith in Him. He will judge the wicked and give them the punishment that He determines they deserve. Having said this, I still may only have this correct 'in part' in my understandings but this is what my understandings are, at this point. I believe God understands where we can have things wrong as it was His choice to not make certain things unquestionably clear to all of us. I believe He has His reasons for doing that and we don't need to know them.

I, too, believe in John 16:13 but perhaps not quite in the way you might. The Holy Spirit is the one that leads us into truth but He leads us into the truths that God wishes to reveal. 'All truth' does not mean that any one man can know all the truth, except Jesus. No one man has a lock on truth and no guarantee that seeking any truth will result in finding it. Again, we can't take one scripture and ignore others that appear to contradict it. If we find every truth we seek for, then we would not be seeing through a glass darkly and knowing in part. And yet I believe God does reveal certain truths just as He answers certain prayers as we seek and ask Him. When that which is perfect is come is not the scriptures as we have them in our hands but rather Jesus when He comes. Again, this is my interpretation of certain scriptures and I cannot say that I am certain these are all revealed truths by the Holy Spirit and not my biblical worldview obtain through my teachings and experiences. The main truth that I know has been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit is the truth that Jesus is God, came to earth and died for my sins, rose from the grave and is coming back to take me to be with Him. That is where my hope is found, in Christ alone.

What I still can't understand is how anyone can maintain a strong conviction on a view of unending torment and live so unconcerned about the destiny of perhaps 80-90 billion people. This is very conflicting with the concept of being born again and receiving a new heart full of compassion and unselfish living. To believe in anything with one's heart must go beyond the intellect to reach the emotions, the will and the conscience. Otherwise, it is only an intellectual reasoning thing. To live out a belief in never ending torment from one's heart would radically change anyone into a hell fire preaching evangelist who laboured non-stop to rescue everyone and anyone from such a state. I have not heard any refutable argument on this thought although people have treated it as an insult. I guess that is one way to quickly dismiss the thought.

That is my main reason for believing that regardless of what some say they believe, it is just words and far from what scripture calls a heart belief. And furthermore, since there is no record of such a response by the apostles, then, IMO, they did not believe in the concept of unending torment and most of them heard Jesus speak personally and they were also filled with and guided by the Holy Spirit in their ministries.

Well, I guess I failed again to stay away but I hope my posts have been more friendly. There certainly is a lot of repeating going on with these posts to make points and I am guilty as anyone. Thats why I think we often end up going in circles and it is so hard to quit.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#265

Post by B. W. » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:05 am

Sudsy wrote:
B. W. wrote:]Does the annihilationist translation of the words destruction, perish, everlasting, and eternal as used in their personally selected texts square up to God’s character and nature?
Yes, very much so and in my view, and the view of many other believers in Christ, is much more reflective of God's character and nature than any thoughts of never ending punishment as a just sentence for anyone. God has given us a conscience and a sense of right and wrong and fairness and we should use those when interpreting scripture. Jesus appealed to man's ability to comprehend what was fair and just when He spoke to people when He was here on earth. He still speaks to us if we will only listen.


For clarity please define the following for us:

Destruction

Destroy

Perish

Eternal

Next - please make a summary list from the bible that objectively defines God's character, attributes, nature. You have not done so as of yet. Do you even agree with the summaries made by Jdavis, myself, and Bart?

Since, as you stated, that God has given us a conscience and a sense of right and wrong and fairness and we should use those when interpreting scripture. I take it then to mean this ability of reason cannot apply to those scriptures that objectively state God’s character, nature, and attributes but rather what human conscience dictates as the arbiter of biblically based truth?
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#266

Post by J.Davis » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:34 am

BavarianWheels wrote:
J.Davis wrote:2 Thessalonians 1:6-9- “6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Now, Paul uses the word affliction meaning- Affliction-1.distress: a condition of great physical or mental distress.
All this fits well with being thrown into a lake of fire until dead.
J.Davis wrote:Back to 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 Pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

Annihilationist would say: Pay the penalty of eternal annihilation away from the presence of the Lord. How can nothing be away from the Lord or you, since nothingness is nowhere? How can nothing be far away since nothing is nowhere and no place so how can eternal annihilation exist away from anybody if it is nothingness? How far is nothing from you?
You're wrong. The interpretation is simple...so simple you might not get it. Eternal destruction. Destroyed for eternity. Dead=away from.
What problem do you have with the simplicity?
Right...LOL...I should have known that your answer would be to change the clear and obvious meaning of words to something that suits Annihilationist theology and contradicts scripture…lol. Annihilationist can’t use dead in relation to distance, separation from God or the existence of a lifeless body to describe human existence after the judgment. Your meaning for dead can only mean annihilation (nothingness). So, just for kicks (And because B.W did it..LOL) let’s replace “away from” with the terminology annihilationist support.

This is 2 Thessalonians 1:9 (Annihilationist style)- “9 These will pay the penalty of eternal annihilation (nothingness), eternal annihilation (nothingness) the presence of the Lord and eternal annihilation (nothingness) the glory of His power ..LOL..Please!!!

There is no way in the world Paul would use such horrible grammar...LOL..come on…Wheels!!! Concerning the bible, scriptures that use dead or death (as well as die in a few cases) in relation to those who live in sin and reject God’s laws is applied to beings that exist, either on earth, in Hades or in the Lake of fire. If “away from” as it is used in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 was meant to be dead it would say dead in the same manner and with the same meaning as all the rest of the scriptures that use dead in relation to those who live in sin and reject God’s ways. And even if “away from” as it is used in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 was replaced with dead it would still mean those who live in sin and reject God’s laws because the dead men the bible referred to were still alive (or exist)….wheels.

Dead is the metaphor for those who live in sin and reject God’s ways, not away from… “Away from”, as it is used in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, given the context and considering the topic, means in another location (the lake of fire). No matter what, the unsaved have to go there to pay the penalty for there sins.

Examples of dead being used as a metaphor for those who lived in sin and rejected God’s laws…Now they live because of God’s sacrifice.

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

Ephesians 2:1-5 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Matthew 22:32 'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB '? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

You guys (Annihilationist) just keep changing the obvious meaning of words (the meaning they have in a given scripture as it relates to final judgment) to get what you want. But it keeps causing more and more contradictions. Now I can go through the bible and find all the scriptures that have the word "away from God” in them and show how ridiculous they sound using dead.

And just as dead, as it is used in the bible, in relation to those who live in sin and reject God’s laws/ways is a metaphor for those who live in sin and reject God’s laws/ways- destruction, as it is used in the bible, in relation to sinners who live or die in sin and reject God (Jesus), laws and ways is a metaphor for those who suffer pain and corruption as a natural result of severing the bound humans were meant to have with God. And hell/The lake of fire is a physical manifestation of the effects involved with that severed state. Not the effects of the eternal fire because that would destroy the purity and truth of why the unsaved go to hell, change the meaning of numerous scripture, pervert God’s perfect good and just nature and have Him tormenting (or annihilating for all you annihilationist) people out of nothing but spite. There is no way that destruction-given the context in which it is used concerning those who sin/reject God/rebel and the overall message of the bible means and end to the existence of the unsaved when they face final judgment.
Last edited by J.Davis on Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:54 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#267

Post by Byblos » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:38 am

Sudsy wrote:What I still can't understand is how anyone can maintain a strong conviction on a view of unending torment and live so unconcerned about the destiny of perhaps 80-90 billion people. This is very conflicting with the concept of being born again and receiving a new heart full of compassion and unselfish living. To believe in anything with one's heart must go beyond the intellect to reach the emotions, the will and the conscience. Otherwise, it is only an intellectual reasoning thing. To live out a belief in never ending torment from one's heart would radically change anyone into a hell fire preaching evangelist who laboured non-stop to rescue everyone and anyone from such a state. I have not heard any refutable argument on this thought although people have treated it as an insult. I guess that is one way to quickly dismiss the thought.
I had seen you make this argument several times now and meant to address it so I'm glad you reminded me by posting it again. I am a firm believer of a literal hell for several reasons, the least of which is that I am Catholic and that is what my church teaches (it's just that I am totally convinced of it). At the same time, however, I acknowledge others' right to read into scripture what they perceive to be the truth, I have no problem with that. I disagree with it but I have no issue with it.

My problem with this line of thinking as described above is that it tends to vilify and demonize those who disagree with you while at the same time it absolves you of any responsibility. First off, the church (the universal church that is) has plenty of missionaries proselytizing and spreading the Gospel all over the world so I really don't know what you're talking about. Second, and most importantly, there are many of us who view annihilation as a much more terrible fate than eternal presence in hell so the question is, since you believe in annihilation why aren't YOU practicing what you preach? Aren't you as equally worried about those 90+ billion souls being annihilated into oblivion while you sit there content in passively watching the process?

It is the same argument that some OCE or YEC folks use against one another. Oh if you don't believe in a literal this or a long day that then you make God a liar. It is a nonsense argument, if not downright insulting.
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#268

Post by Sudsy » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:48 am

B. W. wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
B. W. wrote:]Does the annihilationist translation of the words destruction, perish, everlasting, and eternal as used in their personally selected texts square up to God’s character and nature?
Yes, very much so and in my view, and the view of many other believers in Christ, is much more reflective of God's character and nature than any thoughts of never ending punishment as a just sentence for anyone. God has given us a conscience and a sense of right and wrong and fairness and we should use those when interpreting scripture. Jesus appealed to man's ability to comprehend what was fair and just when He spoke to people when He was here on earth. He still speaks to us if we will only listen.


For clarity please define the following for us:

Destruction

Destroy

Perish

Eternal

Next - please make a summary list from the bible that objectively defines God's character, attributes, nature. You have not done so as of yet. Do you even agree with the summaries made by Jdavis, myself, and Bart?
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No thankyou. This has been discussed many times before. The bottom line is and will continue to be that I agree that God is what those scriptures say He is, no question in that. But and its a big BUT, what you believe these characteristics, attributes and nature, therefore means in how God must act accordingly is where we differ. I do not suggest in any way that God is something different than what these scriptures say, even though you have left out many other scriptures regarding who God is that also apply. If I add some, as I did a couple, you go right back into your interpretation of these.

We will always go in circles when you don't see your view as a certain interpretation of scriptures. I could add summaries and lists and arguments and still it would avail nothing. You obviously believe you know the truth and this truth must be preached at everyone with much repetition. If that is your mission than go for it. It seems this is permitted here.

However, if you are suggesting that because I will not follow your methods, my view is weak or unscriptural, then believe what you wish. I think most readers can judge for themselves whether this be true or not. Anyone truly seeking to understand all sides of this topic will go elsewhere where this is explored in vast detail and decide for themselves.

I have gained a much greater appreciation of the scriptural support for all views during this thread. And it is interesting how each view has been presented on various Internet links as a most mature understanding of God and hell. How we can rise to new heights in our relationship with God by believing their view. Some have much conviction in this area whereas others will just acknowledge the different interpretations and will trust God to do what God will do because of who He truly is.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#269

Post by B. W. » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:32 am

Sudsy wrote: No thank you. This has been discussed many times before. The bottom line is and will continue to be that I agree that God is what those scriptures say He is, no question in that. But and its a big BUT, what you believe these characteristics, attributes and nature, therefore means in how God must act accordingly is where we differ. I do not suggest in any way that God is something different than what these scriptures say, even though you have left out many other scriptures regarding who God is that also apply. If I add some, as I did a couple, you go right back into your interpretation of thes
All I ask was to make a list - this list is based on scripture and for you to use and add too for your own personal time as the Lord leads...

So let's look at your second statement:
Sudsy wrote:
B. W. wrote:Do you have faith? What is it affixed too?
I sure do but it is not placed in an interpretation of man as to how God must act according to certain beliefs about what scripture is saying about His character and nature or an interpretation of hell being unending torment but rather in Christ alone. He alone is the Truth. I believe what scripture says about us seeing through a glass darkly and only knowing in part and so I don't trust any man's interpretation of texts that are clearly challenged to be suspect by other texts. However, the texts you provide, I say amen to them all and yet they do nothing to prove unending torment is an undeniable fact.

Some believers may choose to believe they have somehow arrived at a place of knowing all truth or perhaps must see all things as black or white, that is their choice. Perhaps they are convinced they have the truth revealed in an area regardless of what others also sense they have had revealed to them that is not the same. There are very elite sounding interpretations and strong convictions from the traditionalist, annihilationist and universalist camps. But all can't be right and I suspect to some degree they all only see in part.

'Eternity placed in our hearts', I believe and what I read as most scholars interpretation, is an awareness that this life, this little blip in time, is not all there is and everyone has this put in their awareness by God if they will only heed it. Scripture does not say anywhere that we are immortal beings that will live unending in either heaven or a lake a fire. God will destroy this earth, as we know it, and death and hell and satan and unrepentant sinners and all effects of sin, all pain and suffering and loss, etc, etc. He will create a new heaven and a new earth. He will give immortality only to those who have put their faith in Him. He will judge the wicked and give them the punishment that He determines they deserve. Having said this, I still may only have this correct 'in part' in my understandings but this is what my understandings are, at this point. I believe God understands where we can have things wrong as it was His choice to not make certain things unquestionably clear to all of us. I believe He has His reasons for doing that and we don't need to know them.

I, too, believe in John 16:13 but perhaps not quite in the way you might. The Holy Spirit is the one that leads us into truth but He leads us into the truths that God wishes to reveal. 'All truth' does not mean that any one man can know all the truth, except Jesus. No one man has a lock on truth and no guarantee that seeking any truth will result in finding it. Again, we can't take one scripture and ignore others that appear to contradict it. If we find every truth we seek for, then we would not be seeing through a glass darkly and knowing in part. And yet I believe God does reveal certain truths just as He answers certain prayers as we seek and ask Him. When that which is perfect is come is not the scriptures as we have them in our hands but rather Jesus when He comes. Again, this is my interpretation of certain scriptures and I cannot say that I am certain these are all revealed truths by the Holy Spirit and not my biblical worldview obtain through my teachings and experiences. The main truth that I know has been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit is the truth that Jesus is God, came to earth and died for my sins, rose from the grave and is coming back to take me to be with Him. That is where my hope is found, in Christ alone.

What I still can't understand is how anyone can maintain a strong conviction on a view of unending torment and live so unconcerned about the destiny of perhaps 80-90 billion people. This is very conflicting with the concept of being born again and receiving a new heart full of compassion and unselfish living. To believe in anything with one's heart must go beyond the intellect to reach the emotions, the will and the conscience. Otherwise, it is only an intellectual reasoning thing. To live out a belief in never ending torment from one's heart would radically change anyone into a hell fire preaching evangelist who laboured non-stop to rescue everyone and anyone from such a state. I have not heard any refutable argument on this thought although people have treated it as an insult. I guess that is one way to quickly dismiss the thought.

That is my main reason for believing that regardless of what some say they believe, it is just words and far from what scripture calls a heart belief. And furthermore, since there is no record of such a response by the apostles, then, IMO, they did not believe in the concept of unending torment and most of them heard Jesus speak personally and they were also filled with and guided by the Holy Spirit in their ministries.

Well, I guess I failed again to stay away but I hope my posts have been more friendly. There certainly is a lot of repeating going on with these posts to make points and I am guilty as anyone. Thats why I think we often end up going in circles and it is so hard to quit.
You stated: I sure do but it is not placed in an interpretation of man as to how God must act according to certain beliefs about what scripture is saying about His character and nature…

But you rely heavily on the writings and links to annihilationist line of reasoning so your faith seems to be more affixed to men ideas and not on who God is. If we are to take your line of thought to its obvious conclusions – then there is no right or wrong and no way at all to know truth.

You say, Christ is the truth because he is the truth, in this I agree with you, but how can you get to know him who is truth since there can be no right or wrong way to determine His truth?

This is why I ask people to read the bible and write out a summary from each bible passage that describes God’s Character and Nature and Attributes. It helps one to get to know God and discover the truth that is in Christ Jesus. From it, the Holy Spirit Himself will teach person things in an omni-personal manner that pertain to the truths about God.

In this, a person will discover truth – the Truth in Christ and his words. A person will have more respect than to try to change them to suite a faith affixed upon human sentimentality.

And yes by the way - I added God's mercy, love, to the list and a few others you mentioned so please take the time to reveiw them and add too your own list...
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P.S. You claim the apostles never expressed judgment – hell – wrath to come within their books. Yes, the apostles did mention hell and destruction in their own manner of language expressions in their respective books – they all pointed to ‘the wrath to come, eternal fires, judgment, etc and etc, in their own way.’

Next, I can say the same of your point of view as well so read your own words with your belief system imposed:
What I still can't understand is how anyone can maintain a strong conviction on a view of ending torment and live so unconcerned about the destiny of perhaps 80-90 billion people. This is very conflicting with the concept of being born again and receiving a new heart full of compassion and unselfish living. To believe in anything with one's heart must go beyond the intellect to reach the emotions, the will and the conscience. Otherwise, it is only an intellectual reasoning thing.

To live out a belief in ending torment from one's heart would radically change anyone into a hell fire preaching evangelist who laboured non-stop to rescue everyone and anyone from such a state. I have not heard any refutable argument on this thought although people have treated it as an insult. I guess that is one way to quickly dismiss the thought.

That is my main reason for believing that regardless of what some say they believe, it is just words and far from what scripture calls a heart belief. And furthermore, since there is no record of such a response by the apostles, then, IMO, they did not believe in the concept of ending torment and most of them heard Jesus speak personally and they were also filled with and guided by the Holy Spirit in their ministries…
Point:

The reason we do not respond is that you wrongly judge us and what we do. In this, you are forgiven. There are no superstars in the Kingdom of God, just servants, and each servant’s service differs from the others. No one can come to Christ unless the Lord draws him as Jesus own words of truth say. One sows, and other reaps, others help, some clean, others edify, some teach, some take care of. Read 1 Corinthians 12 sometime soon – does your argument hold up to that?
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#270

Post by Sudsy » Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:34 am

Byblos wrote:
Sudsy wrote:What I still can't understand is how anyone can maintain a strong conviction on a view of unending torment and live so unconcerned about the destiny of perhaps 80-90 billion people. This is very conflicting with the concept of being born again and receiving a new heart full of compassion and unselfish living. To believe in anything with one's heart must go beyond the intellect to reach the emotions, the will and the conscience. Otherwise, it is only an intellectual reasoning thing. To live out a belief in never ending torment from one's heart would radically change anyone into a hell fire preaching evangelist who laboured non-stop to rescue everyone and anyone from such a state. I have not heard any refutable argument on this thought although people have treated it as an insult. I guess that is one way to quickly dismiss the thought.
I had seen you make this argument several times now and meant to address it so I'm glad you reminded me by posting it again. I am a firm believer of a literal hell for several reasons, the least of which is that I am Catholic and that is what my church teaches (it's just that I am totally convinced of it). At the same time, however, I acknowledge others' right to read into scripture what they perceive to be the truth, I have no problem with that. I disagree with it but I have no issue with it.

My problem with this line of thinking as described above is that it tends to vilify and demonize those who disagree with you while at the same time it absolves you of any responsibility. First off, the church (the universal church that is) has plenty of missionaries proselytizing and spreading the Gospel all over the world so I really don't know what you're talking about. Second, and most importantly, there are many of us of view annihilation as a much more terrible fate than eternal presence in hell so the question is, since you believe in annihilation why aren't YOU practicing what you preach? Aren't you as equally worried about the those 90+ billion souls being annihilated into oblivion while you sit there content in passively watching the process?

It is the same argument that some OCE or YEC folks use against one another. Oh if you don't believe in a literal this or a long day that then you make God a liar. It is a nonsense argument, if not downright insulting.

Thanks Byblos for your response. Let me clarify, I'm not at all absolved from any responsibility to share my faith. And certainly there are many evangelists and missionaries proselytizing. What I'm talking about is that I agree with others who say something quite similar that with a heart belief in never ending torment, any person would automatically also become an evangelist and proselytize. If one thinks clearly about what the implications are with such a belief, how could we ever keep from warning everyone from such a fate ? Would this not just be a natural response ? I take it that you are saying, no it wouldn't.

Your argument that Annihilation is a 'far more terrible fate' is something I can't grasp. I don't respond because I don't see a period of adequate punishment being anything close to an endless period of torture.

And although I have certain concerns for these 90+ billion and what punishment they will go through before they are consumed, it would not be anywhere near the same as knowing there is no end to unspeakable torture in a lake of fire. Why is that hard to understand.

I could give you a list of my efforts, even this past week, in soul winning but regardless I still see these as still falling quite short of the compassion that Jesus showed. Interesting you post ' while you sit there content in passively watching the process'. What process ? No one is being annihilated yet ? Do you understand we are talking about a day of judgment at the end of days when the wicked will then be judged and sentenced according to their deeds and this sentence will then be served until it reaches it's final end in destruction/ashes ?

It is not the same argument as the OCE and YEC use against each other. And above all, this argument is not meant to be insulting to anyone. I'm sorry that you and others are taking it this way but I don't know how else to ake this argument.

Regarding my urgency or lack thereof to share the Gospel. This I study about myself and pray that I will have the compassion that Jesus has for the lost. I know I am still too self focused on my own interests. I also believe my motivation to share the good news should be that I so believe it is good news that I can't help but share it. Much like the early church as we read in the first part of Acts. They prayed for boldness but they couldn't help but share their faith. I think this is sometimes called returning to our first love for Christ.

So, I'll give up trying to make this argument as I don't intend to insult anyone. However, I do think there is quite a difference between a head only and a heart belief. I have many head beliefs that have yet not gripped my heart (intellect,emotions,will,conscience) to cause me to live accordingly. Some are, to some degree, affecting all areas of my heart whereas others are just an intellectual agreement to a certain belief.

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