Infinite punishment for finite sins

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
A Y323
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#241

Post by A Y323 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:08 pm

Fair enough. I've been content just following along with this thread, and I'd be happy to continue just doing that. I'm bound to learn something along the way.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#242

Post by J.Davis » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:16 pm

Universalism???

First, you can escape the lake of fire (annihilationist) now everyone can go to heaven (universalism)…LOL! Right, that’s not even worth debating ..LOL. Looks like they had to write a book to explain a few scriptures as well...lol.

Hey, people are free to believe what they want…but as I said, not every belief is right according to the bible.

I acknowledge the fact that people will interpret scripture differently…however, with God’s guidance, life lessons, fellowship with him and reading the bible. One should get a general idea of God’s character. That is what the scriptures B.W gave are about, not details concerning how one interprets scripture but finding God’s character. And really, that is what the overwhelming majority of the bible is about. People should not read it so much to learn what they should and should not do (though that is important too). Or to find out how to make it into heaven so they don’t go to hell etc etc etc.

You read the bible (mainly) as a starting point for your relationship with God so that you know what he likes or dislikes, what makes him happy, mad or proud. You learn what type of people he likes to be friends with etc. Then you seek him and find him, pray and talk, get closer. In a nutshell, we do not intentionally treat people we love such as our wife, husband, girlfriend, boyfriend, father, mother, brother, friends etc, in a way that will make them mad, hurt them, ruin our relationship etc. That is the goal concerning the bible, to learn who God is and understand him, don’t push buttons that you know will make him angry. Know what he enjoys. Just know him and do everything you do for him and with him the same as you would for someone you really love. And who does not enjoy being around someone they really love.

However, some people do not know how to love or they are afraid or insecure etc. So they have things in their character that need to be addressed or else they abuse the one they love. But God knows all and can work with all, he knows that people get into habits, he knows that we do things to ourselves that damage us, he knows that others do things to us that effect our character, hurt us, change us and make our heart resistant to people that wish to give to us with a good and sincere heart, good intent etc. We can treat a person wrong because we know what happened the last time someone did that or said that…all lies. That is why God told us not to do certain things as well as telling us the best way to live our life. Everyone, so long as they are alive can let God change them for the best, so that they will not reject God’s sincere love because they are damaged and hurt.

In any case, one should be able to get a good basic idea of God’s character from the bible. There are more than enough scriptures that will contradict if you have something wrong. After one knows God’s character, one should, at the very least be able to look at a scripture and know what they do not mean, regardless of what they seems to say at first. Just like if someone told you something wrong about your mom. Even without knowing all the facts, you would say…there is no way that can be true.
Last edited by J.Davis on Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#243

Post by Sudsy » Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:22 pm

Another thought - A Y323, regarding people's awareness of what hell would be like and making a choice. Do you think if you were to tell someone that hell is a place of never ending torment and describe it as best you can with all it's horrors, that anyone would choose it over accepting the free gift of salvation ? I have trouble believing that anyone would chose this over eternal bliss in heaven.

Unless God somehow, and I believe it is mainly through believers proclamation, makes it known to a man just what is the consequence of one's rejection of salvation, then how would this be a fair opportunity to decide. We warn our children to not play on the street and make it very clear what may happen if they disobey. Surely, we would not think that God, the most loving Father, would hide the consequence of rejecting His free gift when it meant never ending torment ?

And where in the New Testament is there one occurrence of the apostles sharing the 'good news' where they spelled out the horrors of endless torment to those they preached to ? I'll answer that one, there isn't. Also, Jesus did appeal to His listeners sense of fairness in some of His stories, so I think God's ways of fairness are not that far removed from what our conscience, as believers, tells us about what seems fair. These are some of the thoughts and questions I seek scriptural answers for and do find some of the answers given to be quite unlike the God described in scripture.

But again, I'm not debating either, just tossing in some thoughts and questions.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#244

Post by BavarianWheels » Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:56 pm

A Y323 wrote:Since I'm somewhat entered in this discussion now, I guess I'll throw out my view on this (although still undecided). Both sides have some really good points and some faults from what I can tell. Both appear (in my view) to have accurate interpretations of the scriptures they use. One thing I've been thinking since following this thread- God is the God of the living, the giver and sustainer of life. By sending people to hell, God is giving them what they wanted during life, to be separated from Him. Being separated from the sustainer of life in my mind equals death, or annihilation. Can you see my line of reasoning? Maybe those of you in this thread can help me out, either reinforce me or show me where I went wrong.
This is good thinking (heh). He is God of the living. He is God over everything created...even of creatures that don't have a choice in what god they choose. And you rightly, if I may, read John 3:16 correctly. Death is the wage.
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#245

Post by J.Davis » Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:52 pm

Ok, so the annihilationism theory states that the unsaved will cease to exist after judgment. They come to this (dangerous) conclusion (despite overlooking obvious scripture to the contrary along with facts concerning God’s nature) based off of their interpretation of the word destruction, suggestion that it means an end to existence. So with that being the case how do annihilationist interpret the following scripture….

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9- “6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Now, Paul uses the word affliction meaning- Affliction-1.distress: a condition of great physical or mental distress.

Back to 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 Pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

Annihilationist would say: Pay the penalty of eternal annihilation away from the presence of the Lord. How can nothing be away from the Lord or you, since nothingness is nowhere? How can nothing be far away since nothing is nowhere and no place so how can eternal annihilation exist away from anybody if it is nothingness? How far is nothing from you?
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#246

Post by B. W. » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:33 pm

Byblos wrote:^ great post J.

And here 's the clincher that brings it all home: Mark 12:27 and especially Luke 20:38. How could God be all these characteristics, fair, just, unchanging, not denying himself, and be the God of the living, then to turn around and deny all that and destroy his own creation? Would that not make Him the God of the living as well as the dead? I think it does.
Yes it would - it would cause God to to deny himself -as Being the Living God: here is another clue - God destroys and makes new - Genesis chapter one and the last two chapters in Revelations... This will keep a person busy seeking out many truths aboout the Lord - how he slays (kills) and makes alive. When a person dies - they face judgment Hebrews 9:27; hense, they are not dead the mortal dies but the spirit returns to God who gave it (one returned faces judgment), will either reside with God or go below where the beast resides.

There is a lot in and to this and from this other scriptures will come to mind, some may cause some people to wrestle with the Lord - others move onward...
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#247

Post by Sudsy » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:45 pm

Annihilationist would say: Pay the penalty of eternal annihilation away from the presence of the Lord. How can nothing be away from the Lord or you, since nothingness is nowhere? How can nothing be far away since nothing is nowhere and no place so how can eternal annihilation exist away from anybody if it is nothingness? How far is nothing from you?
Or, during the process of annihilation until destroyed in the lake of fire, they will be away from the presence of the Lord.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#248

Post by B. W. » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:45 pm

Sudsy wrote:Again, not debating but just adding how others use scripture to support their view. This article attempts to shoot down both the 'T' view and the 'A' view. This univeralist begins this list by believing he has found the Truth on the matter and how this Truth will 'allow your spirit to soar'. Many of us would have very different interpretations of these same verses.

...Also, an observation - there are various characteristics regarding God that should be considered on any view to avoid any bias. For instance, Psalm 136 - 26 times it states - 'For His mercy endureth forever'. God is forever merciful.
Sudsy, the scriptures you posted and in the manner posted is what Bart was speaking about how not too string things together...

Next, to whom is the Lord merciful?

Isaiah 55:7

Romans 9:13, 14, 15 and Exodus 33:19 refers to Exodus 33:18..

Psalms 7:11 - Psalms 9:16-17
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#249

Post by Sudsy » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:53 pm

Next, to whom is the Lord merciful?
“While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?" On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

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Post by B. W. » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:54 pm

Sudsy wrote:
Annihilationist would say: Pay the penalty of eternal annihilation away from the presence of the Lord. How can nothing be away from the Lord or you, since nothingness is nowhere? How can nothing be far away since nothing is nowhere and no place so how can eternal annihilation exist away from anybody if it is nothingness? How far is nothing from you?
Or, during the process of annihilation until destroyed in the lake of fire, they will be away from the presence of the Lord.
How far away is nothingness to you? How can the miles, feet, and inches away from nothingness be measured?
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#251

Post by Sudsy » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:06 pm

How far away is nothingness to you? How can the miles, feet, and inches away from nothingness be measured?
Very carefully. ;)

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

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Post by B. W. » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:24 pm

J.Davis wrote:Ok, I went through B.W’s list of scriptures… But it was a quick run through, no meditation or checking the context of where the scriptures came from (trusting that they say what they seem to say by themselves). So take it easy on me… B.W… :esmile: .

God is Holy, his awesome power, skill, wisdom and love can be seen in all things he created. If we have no faith in God then he must do as he said concerning the consequence of our lack of faith, he must always be perfect and true to his character.

God does not lie, make mistakes, change his mind and He always keeps his word. When God makes a promise, He keeps it, it is impossible for Him to lie so we can feel safe in the fact that we will have what he promised.

God does not change, he is a strong and stable foundation, his work is perfect, he is fair in all thing, and never unjust. God is not evil or unjust, we get fair punishment or reward according to what we have done. God will never act in an evil way, he will always do what is fair (and he will never change his law).

God is good, gives security, protection and there is no evil in him. Is God being unjust (in this case harm unjustly)? Or does he do evil? In both cases the answer is nooooooo.

The Lord is with us, he will do no evil, he will punish the unjust/wicked. Know that God is to be respected, do what is right concerning Gods laws, because he will. God will follow his laws no matter what, regardless of who you are, he is just.

God’s ways and understanding is far above ours and what he wants done will be done. There are no other God’s, just one (I Am/Jesus) he tells the coarse of events to come (the future). What he has set in place will stand…he will do what he wishes. God has all power and authority above all, he will judge all justly and fair no matter who you are, his law is absolute.

God is patient and can do all things (awesome)! And God will give those who are evil the punishment they deserve and he will make no exceptions. Well, that’s pretty much how I would say it…The wicked will have no peace.

We will never fully understand God, he is perfect in judgment and completely fair, he does not harm without just cause. God will judge everything…good or evil. God knows the truth, and makes it know to us, he will give all what they deserve.
Thanks JDavis for your summary

Here is my summary along with a few other scriptures references that state objectively God’s Character and Nature that were noted posted as cited in refernce.

Summary:

God is Holy, His work is perfect; for all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He. God is all mighty and awesome and there is no unrighteousness in Him. God is the Living eternal God – sovereign – absolutely mighty, absolutely wise, all knowing…

The Almighty is beyond our mortal comprehension; He is excellent in power. In judgment and abundant justice; He does not oppress. There is no other god /gods. There is none like him. Yahweh Elohim is Echaud – none like him… God cannot deny himself.

God will never do wickedly, never do wickedness, nor commit iniquity. The Lord will never pervert justice. The Lord is righteous in all his ways. Yahweh is upright; He is like unto a stable rock, always faithful, unchanging in his ways, solid, a tall tower of safety and shelter. God will never deny himself. God always does everything justly and right.

God is a God of counsel unmoving, in his intentions by reflecting - considering all things (Hebrews 6:17). God’s counsel stands and he will do all his pleasure. He keeps his word, and performs it. It is impossible for God to lie. He reneges on no gift or calling or promise. He will accomplish his word in the task for which he sent. His wisdom and knowledge is unsearchable

God brings His justice to light; He never fails. There is no iniquity with the LORD. God shows no partiality, nor will he take a bribe. God test and searches the heart. The LORD is slow to anger and great in power. He will not at all acquit the wicked.

God holds one to account: God will bring every work into judgment. He repays man according to his work, and makes man to find a reward according to his own ways. God gives every man according to his ways and according to the fruit of his doings.

God gives life to man (Gen 2:7 –eternal image, Job 33:4, Acts 17:25 life to all). He placed his eternity in the human heart. What God does endures forever. God does not take away life (2 Sam 14:14). God provides means by which the lost can be reconciled back to him.

God is good to all. God hates every evil path, iniquity, sin. God hates. God loves. God shows mercy. God takes vengeance. God jealously protects. He is a God of perfect judgment. God is perfect/blameless in all his ways.

God chastises the righteous (whom the Lord Loves he chastens (Hebrews chapter 12 for details), his anger does not abide forever on His righteous, he chastens for a purpose, he forgives (note 1 John 1:9) those he declared righteous and cleanses them.

God forsakes the wicked granting them banishment/thrust out to live according to their own devises (Psalms 9:16, 17 – Isaiah 3:11 – Proverbs 14:32 - Psalms 11:4, 5, 6, 7 – Jeremiah 17:10).

These are just few brief of the summaries from the bible which objectively describe God’s character and nature. From them, more can be said.

Anyone can add to the list. I’ll give a little more time, then from whomever’s summaries we have – we’ll being to learn truths about the Lord…
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#253

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:26 pm

How do you feel about handling passages that stand in contradiction to some of these?
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#254

Post by B. W. » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:38 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:How do you feel about handling passages that stand in contradiction to some of these?
That is the purpose of this exercise...

Showing through what at first appears a contradiction, is not a contradiction, measured to God's own Character and Standard's.

This is one reason so few dare embark on the journey to really seek after and know the Lord. By this, the bad can be tossed out and the good kept...

This is where, for some people embarking on this exercise, they must wrestle with God until He blesses them with the answer..

Which build's one's Faith in the Lord. Whatever is based on faith in man will be shaken and thrown out of joint and those embarking will be forced with a choice...
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

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Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:59 pm

I understand that. That's however, why I believe you start with the Gospels, Jesus words, model and person and you make that the lens you look through. Otherwise you end up at times trying to reconcile atributes garnered from different locations, context and it becomes an exercise in intellectual reconciliation rather than recognizing the many of those reconciliations are found in Christ alone.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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