Infinite punishment for finite sins

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#61

Post by J.Davis » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:28 am

Hi Sudsy!
Sudsy wrote:J. Davis, I see you have completely mis-understood the point I was making regarding the word 'eternal'.
No, no…..I did not misunderstand you. I know your argument well Sudsy. Ministry is my life, this is nothing new to me at all. And no, it does not matter what the majority of Christianity says. It matters what the bible says…

You say that…
Sudsy wrote:I see the term 'eternal' in many ways referring to an age or period that does not mean eternal in the sense that God always was and always will be.
I know the whole game as far as people playing with the Greek word that translates to eternal. That’s why I said you are not using the correct scriptures. However, what is important is the context in which a word is used. Words can mean many things depending on the context in which the word is used. And there is no way at all that eternal, given the context that it is used in concerning hell means a finite period of time/ age or period. No way, no how, whatsoever…period. I know you are new to this just from the defense and scriptures you bring up. But if you want to make your reasoning work than you are going to wind up changing TONS of scriptures in a way that makes no sense. And the end, using your reasoning, should I or anyone who has done this a lot, debate against you concerning your beliefs, will end in there being no God.

It is not simply the interpretation of many Christians…It is God’s word and his guidance, that’s why so many believe it….

It is just as plan to me as reading a book that says-Throw that bass in the garbage, it looks bad and all the frets are broken.

It is perfectly clear that we are talking about the bass instrument. If it just said: Throw that bass in the garbage, it looks bad.

Then we can choose what we want to believe. It can either mean the bass instrument or a big smelly rotten fish, you are free to choose. But because the words-and all the frets are broken. Are in the same sentence as bass, it can only mean the bass instrument.

Concerning hell, it is not what I or many other countless Christians wish to believe. Because of the context in which the word eternal is used in relation to hell plus the interpretation of various metaphors meaning the same, the context in which the word is used in many other scriptures, God’s character etc. It can only mean eternal as in infinite… There is no choice concerning the matter, only the choice to believe what one wishes to believe despite what the bible says.

Also, it is important to do our best to keep God’s word as it is, because he knows best. All decisions (and I do mean all) have a moral belief attached to them. No matter what one decides, their decision to choose or not to choose one idea, belief or action etc over another will be made because the decision-maker feels it’s right or wrong. Their belief that something is right or wrong will be weighed against God’s beliefs. There is a reason why we all make the choices we do in life. One simply does not believe in something for no reason. The why and the intent are very important to God. And his word is made to help and aid us in many areas. His word will cause many feelings, resistance, peace, joy, worrier etc. But it is all good and causes us to keep searching for the truth, not only the truth behind his words but the truth in our heart.
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#62

Post by J.Davis » Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:31 am

J.Davis wrote:That means that everything that is written in the new testament was taught by the disciples. They repeat what Jesus told them, meaning that they brought up hell a lot.
Sudsy wrote:Really ? You know that to be a fact even though you have no examples of this in the Acts of the apostles or any of the letters Paul wrote. Don't you wonder why such an important issue was not made adamantly clear in the NT writings by the apostles and their instructions to the early churches ? Sounds like speculation to me. It is one thing to interpret scriptures a certain way but this is reading into what happened that is not found in scripture. If we are to speculate on what really did occur, I can speculate that what Jesus said did not cause them to preach a 'hell fire' message and so it appears that what they interpreted from what He said regarding never-ending torment was something other than what you interpret.
Sudsy? It is 100% fact… The disciples wrote the new testament correct? Yes correct…. The disciples wrote what Jesus said correct?…Yes correct…Jesus mentioned hell a lot correct? Yes correct….Jesus is God and the overwhelming majority of the bible consist of his Words correct? If you believe that Jesus is God and that the bible was inspired by God and written by men who were lead by the holy sprit…Yes correct. And I gave you scriptures, and that was only a few, Jesus mentioned hell a lot and the disciples (not Jesus) wrote it and spread the word.

There is no question about it at all, I’m not sure if you understand me and wish to play games or if you’re really new to all of this and are truly looking for the truth (if you are new that is fine). Again, yes, the disciples mentioned hell a lot because Jesus did, and Jesus is God. It’s in the bible and it is in no way speculation. Look over the scriptures I gave you….

See how they say Matthew, Mark, Luke?

And you keep saying how people who believe in “never-ending torment but live basically uncaring lives are reflecting very cold feelings toward the lost”

As I said, I dedicate HUGE amounts of time to God’s work, most of my life even and I will continue to do so because I love doing it and want to help. But what you say, is really no argument at all because you do not know what those who believe in never-ending torment (because the bible says so) do with their time. Also, what may not seem like a lot to one person is a lot to another. Maybe one person does not believe that preaching to hundreds of people a day is enough, for some that is an extreme number. Everyone does the best they can but that in no way, whatsoever, changes God’s word.
Sudsy wrote:I think there is ample interpretive support for an end to punishment. You chose to see this differently.
Again, no there is not support for the idea without total disregard and conflict against many scriptures and principles. If God’s word does not contradict it’s self (and it does not) than there is no support for it at all. If you want to, make all the scriptures B.W and I gave work with whatever scriptures you are using with no contradiction. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Sudsy wrote:I haven't brought this up but why is it that when we talk of the unsaved being judged we only think of punishment ? In other words, is this not saying that a good living Buddhist ot Atheist who may have more good works than most Christians and has given his/her life sacrifically to serving others will not merit anything for this way of living but instead will only receive a punishment in never-ending torment ? Is this how you view God and how He MUST hand out justice because that is just the way He is and must be true to Himself ?
No, there is a lot more to God’s character….It depends on what the Buddhist knows of Jesus. If they know nothing of Jesus but live by the law God/Jesus (not Buddha) placed in their heart then they may very well make it into heaven. If they live by Buddhist law then most likely not. The more they know of Jesus the more God will hold them accountable for not accepting Him. The more they sin against God’s/Jesus’ law in their heart, without accepting His (God’s) law, the greater the punishment in hell will be. Likewise, the less they sin against God’s/Jesus’ law in their heart, without accepting His (God’s) law, the less their punishment in hell will be. God takes all things into account and judges fairly.
Sudsy wrote:God just might surprise some of us and after they recognize Him as Lord in a way and at a point in time we never expected could happen, their good deeds might merit them more reward than many Christians. Whoa, now I'm really thinking outside the box.
I am surprised by God often sudsy, God is amazing, and have no doubt that I wish for as many as possible to be saved.

But get a better reward than me form God? No, not possible…I’m the best there is…LOL!
Sudsy wrote:whats most important is we become more and more like Jesus so we do have the mind of Christ operating in us so we can fulfill the mission He has given us.
Amen… :amen:
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#63

Post by Sudsy » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:01 am

There is so much here I could debate about what certain scriptures are saying without using your reasonings but I think we would just go in circles. Areas such as what it means to be in God's image; God's fairness to all; God living up to His attributes; what perish/destruction means according to your interpretations; how God MUST act to act in love; your belief in eternal wrath; what the disciples said themselves about eternal torment that was not a writing on what Jesus said; etc, etc.

It was encouraging though to see you at least do believe in degrees of punishment. What is really suspect though in your logic is that if I do something that merits a slap on my hand for a mistake in this life, one slap and the sentence is over, justice is complete. However, this 'slap' in eternity is one that goes on 'forever and ever'. And the good unbelievers may have done, do they experience an endless amount of reward also for their good deeds ? And all this is being fair and just in your view ? Have you thought about the fact that Jesus took on the wrath of God against all sin within a few hours and then the wrath of God was satisfied ? I expect here again you have answers that we might differ on.

And regarding what eternal torment believers do with their time - sorry, I do know that most of them are not predominantly concerned with saving the lost. How this is not obvious to you is very puzzling. You may be one of the few who are diligently out trying to win them for Christ. Everyone does not do the best they can in this area. And my argument is that if this eternal torment ever truly gripped anyone's heart, as one fellow put it, he would crawl across England over cut glass to see one soul saved from such a hell.

When it comes to the beginning of things and the study of end times I think there is much speculation and reading into scriptural texts. I, personally don't see in the scriptures where God wants us focusing on these but rather on the mission He has currently given us. That, I believe, is to proclaim the Gospel and make disciples. We have many side-tracking interests to that and I'm as guilty as any.

I believe salvation includes the forgiveness of all my sins, the freedom from the bondage of sin, the victory over the power of sin now and someday the removal from the very presence of sin. I don't really need to believe in eternal torment to wish everyone to have such a great salvation. I can only admit my selfish flesh controlled by fears and lack of compassion is my major enemy. But God is not through with me yet in making me the ambassador of His Kingdom that He wants me to be. He certainly is extremely long-suffering.

God bless and even though we may not have convinced each other to alter our initial beliefs on this, I do find it interesting to read other believer's biblical worldview on these topics. I have just looked at some other threads relating to the same topic and see much of the same arguments repeated. I'm glad God knows our struggles to understand Him and His Word and I think sometimes He looks down and just smiles at what we think we know on certain things. Kind of like a parent listening to a child philosophising on an area that they really know little about. What an eye opener it will be someday to fully understand. I think there will be a lot of these - :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:

P.S. I'm off on vacation for a few days observing the marvelous handiwork of the Creator in the fall colours.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#64

Post by A Y323 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:14 am

Looks like you guys agree that you'll just start going in circles soon, so...
Canuckster1127 wrote:Throwing this out for consideration.

Jesus only addressed his comments regarding hell toward religious people, not "sinners." Why might that be?
I'm interested in this, but I haven't seen anyone mention it yet.

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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#65

Post by jlay » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:02 pm

Really? When you say religious, do you mean religious authorities? Because the SOM was certainly not addressed to the religious authorities, and mentions Hell quite a bit.

Audience of Matt 5-7: The crowds and His disciples.

Meaning of only?
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#66

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:48 pm

Hey Jlay,

General comment I've heard thrown about as of late in a few circles that I run in. I think they would make some differentiations between hell as it is used in the separate greek terms of sheol, hades, tartarus and Gehenna. It's something I've studied in the past. I tend to believe that there are elements of the "orthodox" teachings on hell, that are more reflective of thoughts garnered from Hades from the greek and brought more into vogue within the organized church post 4th century.

I can't however, go so far as to try to rationalize hell away in the manner I see from some. I do note however that Jesus appears to use the teaching of hell most strongly toward the abuse of religious power and teaching as in the case of the pharisees as opposed to using hell as a motivator toward the unredeemed coming to God. That's a general statement on my part, so I expect exceptions or disagreement with that.

I've seen professors in the past from evangelical schools excoriated for trying to look closely at the use of these different words and attempting to understand the traditions and general understandings of them as they would have been understood in the context of society at Jesus time. At the very least, I think there's a quick tendency to lump them all under the single term of "hell" that we use and assume that the meaning is consistent with what we generally think of today which may be as much influenced by our cultural literature (a la "Dante's Inferno for example) or Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, by Jonathon Edwards and perhaps we're not drawing as directly from Scripture as what we think. I think at the very least it's a subject worthy of biblical examination with an effort to set aside presuppositions.

Just some thoughts on my part for what they are worth.

bart
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

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Post by J.Davis » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:36 am

Hi Sudsy!
Sudsy wrote:There is so much here I could debate about what certain scriptures are saying without using your reasonings but I think we would just go in circles. Areas such as what it means to be in God's image; God's fairness to all; God living up to His attributes; what perish/destruction means according to your interpretations; how God MUST act to act in love; your belief in eternal wrath; what the disciples said themselves about eternal torment that was not a writing on what Jesus said; etc, etc.
No, I would not go in circles and I do not wish that for you either. Using my reasoning and trusting that God guides my reasoning, I would achieve God’s goal, that is what I aim for. That goal is not to prove to you that hell is real and that the unsaved will be tormented there forever. The goal is to help God’s creation find Him, find truth, love, peace, joy etc. There are many people involved here, not just us. Our post can not only influence the reader but those the reader speaks to as well as everyone that is connected to those spoken to. We may never know who will accept what, or how what was said will effect lives around the world. We all put what we feel out there for all to see and sometimes someone will challenge our ideas. The same happened with Jesus and he was very diligent about defending his word and reputation, not for himself but so that those listening would consider his words over those that spoke against him. He was wise and brilliant and as far as the bible records, he never loss an argument in public.

My original post here was created to help God’s creation. You challenged (even if not intentionally) that post. So I defended it, not in an attempt to force you to receive the message (I don’t do that) but to keep the message alive so that those who wish to receive it can do so with as little doubt as possible. As long as you are ok with that, and knowing that I will do my best to grind your argument into fine paste and spread it so thin that not even a single thought sticks, then we can debate with the understanding that no harm is intended at all….LOL. No, you’re new and I think young in Christ…But be ready for full force next time. :)

So many things are confused concerning the bible as well as the confusion the unsaved believe about the church. It’s as the bible says it will be but we still have to make our best effort to get the truth out.
Sudsy wrote:It was encouraging though to see you at least do believe in degrees of punishment. What is really suspect though in your logic is that if I do something that merits a slap on my hand for a mistake in this life, one slap and the sentence is over, justice is complete. However, this 'slap' in eternity is one that goes on 'forever and ever'. And the good unbelievers may have done, do they experience an endless amount of reward also for their good deeds ? And all this is being fair and just in your view ? Have you thought about the fact that Jesus took on the wrath of God against all sin within a few hours and then the wrath of God was satisfied ? I expect here again you have answers that we might differ on.
Keeping this short…It is not what I believe, it’s what the bible (God) says concerning the matter. He gives degrees of punishment. A slap on the hand? Bad Analogy. It would be more accurate to say that taking life get’s you life in prisons. God believes that everything is his. Psalm 24:1 1 Corinthians 10:26 Jeremiah 27:5 But he gives us dominion of the earth and free will. We are free but when it is all said and done, God is going to come and get what’s his, because he made us and loves us. If he finds that we reject him (the free will part) then we have to account for God not having what He made, what he loves and what is rightfully His etc. If he is missing an eternal life than whoever has it (the unsaved) will be punished for eternity, it‘s a fair trade and it’s our choice. And there is much, much more to it than that and it has been talked about in many threads here. The other major point is that hell is the best environment for the unsaved to have comfort and the life they are used to etc. Sounds wild but if you really understand the examples I gave on the equal moral exchange post than you can kind of get the idea.

Concerning the unsaved doing good deeds? God’s work through his children (the saved) is what get’s rewards. And what Jesus did was to give a gift and sacrifice himself. He was in no way suffering the wrath of himself nor did he sin in anyway whatsoever. He was just saving his creation.

Sudsy wrote:And regarding what eternal torment believers do with their time - sorry, I do know that most of them are not predominantly concerned with saving the lost. How this is not obvious to you is very puzzling.

That is not my experience, maybe I do hang around a seriously dedicated crowd, I can’t say. But I have been around a ton of Christians who do a lot for others. Furthermore, it’s a new world and the internet is an extremely powerful force that continues to grow. God’s saints work and minister in this new way as well as others. And God is proud of many of his children that work in this way for him, if not, than Satan will consume one of the most powerful tools in existence today (the internet). There are Admin’s and local members here with thousands of post, ministering on God’s behalf and God accepts that as great work. They choose to accept the job, they do not have to.

I will most likely never have so many post and the work needs to be done, God works through his saints in many ways. And the work he want’s his saints to do on the web is just as important as what other do in person. Just as you read the bible and find help, many read these forums and find help. And this is absolutely the most knowledgeable group I have seen on the internet. Also, as Bart said, many give to churches and organizations that can carry out God’s work in the way the one giving approves of. If not for the support of God’s people then the 700 club, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyers etc would not be able to minister on the level they do, and such groups help millions. And God sees their giving and it is great work, they do not have to give. And there are many, many more ways that Christians help because they have a need to spread God’s message.

Sudsy, you are right and we agree concerning the fact that it is better to focus on the good. I was clear on that, again, the hell message is not my style and I do not do it often at all. But it is in no way right to criticize those God has given the message to. It is a very important message and needs to be spread just as much as others, especially with all the confusion on the topic. God mentioned hell to many, not just the Pharisees and we should support or brothers and sisters who God has given the message to. The message of hell is the only way to open the eye’s of many who are blind, so they can see the truth in their life.

Support those with the gift to free them…

As for me, I will help with the topic when I feel lead to but mostly I will leave it to those with more experience (not everyone can say they have acutely been to hell, a rare gift indeed).

Enjoy your vacation Sudsy! And you say you are saved so no worriers about hell..
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#68

Post by J.Davis » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:46 am

Concerning the confusion with the word hell…

The lake of fire is the final judgment, it is what Jesus and the disciples refer to almost every time they say hell. The bible that is used on this forum uses Hades for the correct scriptures. Most of the confusion comes from people playing with the King James. And no matter what… It matters not, the lake of fire is used during the final judgment. Until then we can play with the words Sheol and Hades for where the unsaved go when they die. But judgment day, it’s God or the lake of fire, that’s all.

Tartarus is for demons so if the bible speaks of throwing angels in hell, it means they went to a special prison called Tartarus. And Gehenna was a place on earth were they burnt people. There really is no confusion about it concerning the bible, just confused people or people who wish to confuse themselves (Not talking about you Bart, you just say what the confusion is concerning the matter).
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#69

Post by B. W. » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:48 am

Sudsy wrote:There is so much here I could debate about what certain scriptures are saying without using your reasonings but I think we would just go in circles. Areas such as what it means to be in God's image; God's fairness to all; God living up to His attributes; what perish/destruction means according to your interpretations; how God MUST act to act in love; your belief in eternal wrath; what the disciples said themselves about eternal torment that was not a writing on what Jesus said; etc, etc...

...P.S. I'm off on vacation for a few days observing the marvelous handiwork of the Creator in the fall colours.
If God failed in living up to any of His attributes, then how can he really be God? Look at these stated principles stated about God within the bible and ponder them awhile: Deuteronomy 32:4, Job 34:10, 11, 12, Job 37:23, Genesis 18:25 - 2 Ch 19:7 - Psalms 92:15... to name a few

Take your time and roll these around in your mind and ask the Lord questions about these - compare and try to justify to doctrine and see if any goes against these stated principles about God. This will lead to more questions, gain more insight, find more answers not anticipated, during this time you can throw out the bad and comprehend the good. This will take time and often much wrestling with God is involved. However, You'll develop a deeper living loving relationship with God and gaze in awe concerning the mysteries of Himself that He slowly reveals.

Please note - This is not taught in Christian universities or in systematic theology. It comes by what Jesus said for us to do: Matthew 7:7

Enjoy your time in the woods looking at the wonders that nature shows about the handiword of God!

J.Davis wrote:Concerning the confusion with the word hell…

The lake of fire is the final judgment, it is what Jesus and the disciples refer to almost every time they say hell. The bible that is used on this forum uses Hades for the correct scriptures. Most of the confusion comes from people playing with the King James. And no matter what… It matter not, the lake of fire is used during the final judgment. Until then we can play with the words Sheol and Hades for where the unsaved go when they die. But judgment day, it’s God or the lake of fire, that’s all.

Tartarus is for demons so if the bible speaks of throwing angles in hell, it means they went to a special prison called Tartarus. And Gehenna was a place on earth were they burnt people. There really is no confusion about it concerning the bible.... B.W has talked on it often so maybe he will give more info.
That is about it in a nutshell. When I speak of hell – it is the one that exist now as Isaiah 24:22 reveals. People and culture use expressive / descriptive words to describe things. Same with Hell – it was likened to Gehenna – a trash dump where the garbage was dumped and contained.

Words like fire, perishing, ruin destruction, weeping/gnashing of teeth, worm does not die, etc and etc are used as expressions used to convey a reality in a manner someone can grasp as a place to avoid.

The Lake of Fire is not Hell but Hell will be cast into it… Lake of fire is also a expressive description of a place to avoid… People do get confused with the KJV language concerning hell and mix other things into it as well. It is still a place to avoid.

God draws people to himself and places us in locations where we are used to do His drawing – by words, actions, testimony, shining light – not darkness, lifting up Christ by how we live our lives. Each person has his or her part to play. There are no superstars – just us as a team. This is where faith comes in, Sudsy, you gotta have faith God knows what he is doing using the likes of us to aid his drawing of people. He knows who are his and places us in their path. Be ready…
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#70

Post by jlay » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:08 am

At the very least, I think there's a quick tendency to lump them all under the single term of "hell" that we use and assume that the meaning is consistent with what we generally think of today which may be as much influenced by our cultural literature (a la "Dante's Inferno for example) or Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, by Jonathon Edwards and perhaps we're not drawing as directly from Scripture as what we think. I think at the very least it's a subject worthy of biblical examination with an effort to set aside presuppositions.
I have also spent some time studying that as well, and our preacher has done a fine job of teaching on the uses of all those words that often are translated 'hell.' In the context of the SOM, Jesus is using gehenna, which of course had a very real meaning to those in attendance as it was the burning waste pit outside Jerusalem.
I would argue that the opposite of what you say can also be the case. There are instances where none of those words are used, but the text clearly speaks of eternal seperation from God. Daniel 12:2 comes to mind, and John 3.
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#71

Post by Canuckster1127 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:39 am

I'm not arguing against the existence of Hell, Jlay. I hope that's clear. I accept that it's a strong theme, even a primary one in Jesus teaching and interwoven throughout the Bible. I'm simply noting that it's not an unhealthy thing, or even a departure from othodoxy to examine all of the different words used for hell and understand the contexts of them with the culture and scriptures. I do think that there's some cultural predisposition at work that ties some of the Greek concept of Hades into our current understanding and I'm just suggesting that some awareness of that coupled with the scriptural analysis of the different words used, might render some important elements to keep in mind to guide our thinking in this realm.

If I have a bias (and I do) it's toward the argument drawn from the nature of God that I see used frequently. I don't find that argument compelling in whole because I think there's a tendency to attempt to make God "nice" (by our terms) as opposed to "love" which can and does include elements from God's character that are not as we would define them humanly. Recognizing that, I still think there's some room to examine the issue closer. And to return to the original point, I find little doubt in the NT that Jesus delivered most of his teachings on hell either directly to the Pharisees and religious leaders of His day and even when he was speaking directly to common crowds it's often clear that his references to hell are indirectly referencing those leaders too. It's part and parcel of the reason they wanted to kill Him, without question. That's not something that we seem to pick up on as much today, maybe for legitimate reason. I think it's worthy of some thought and attention is all I'm saying.

Hope that makes sense and draws some boundaries around what I'm trying to say.

bb
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#72

Post by BavarianWheels » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:12 am

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Question: Did Christ die the death of a sinner?
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#73

Post by Canuckster1127 » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:32 am

BavarianWheels wrote:.
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Question: Did Christ die the death of a sinner?
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Given that he died the death I deserved the answer is yes. I assume you're leading to the connection between that and his descending into hell as noted in the early creeds?
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

#74

Post by BavarianWheels » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:43 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:
BavarianWheels wrote:.
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Question: Did Christ die the death of a sinner?
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Given that he died the death I deserved the answer is yes. I assume you're leading to the connection between that and his descending into hell as noted in the early creeds?
Well that fits also I believe, however the point better made is that IF Christ suffered the death of the sinner, and more so the death or penalty of all sin placed upon Him, then we have another example of what the penalty of sin is...it's exactly as John 3:16 says it is. It is not to suffer unending pain and torment, but to perish/die ultimately a total and complete separation from the Life Giver.

I wonder why some of us promote the John 3:16 verse so much as total and complete truth (especially one that left our "fold"...Jac) and yet we don't believe the words therein.

There is much in scripture that gives evidence to complete death. God never made humanity "eternal souls" that cannot die if God "alone is immortal" (1 Timothy 6:16), why then must we be changed from mortal to immortal, perishable to imperishable? If our spirit is already immortal...and we get new bodies....??
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Re: Infinite punishment for finite sins

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Post by J.Davis » Fri Oct 08, 2010 1:46 am

Wheels… :)

If you keep using that logic, you will end up with a big pile of contradictions. The bible does not support the idea that the unsaved will cease to exist in such a way that they can not be punished and tormented for all eternity. Nor does it support the idea that the unsaved will not be tormented in the lake of fire for all eternity when God issues final judgment. You are simply taking scriptures out of context and giving them meanings that do not fit the surrounding message. Because of that your supporting scriptures and overall post contradict. Furthermore, as I said earlier, all the scriptures you will use can be used to support my argument (because it is the truth) but should you start manipulating the scriptures concerning eternity, judgment, taking responsibility for our sins, God’s law’s etc and how all these things relate to eternity with God or being tormented for all eternity in the Lake Of Fire than you will make God’s word weak (to some) and ruin it’s effectiveness (for many) as you minister to people concerning hell.
BavarianWheels wrote:the point better made is that IF Christ suffered the death of the sinner, and more so the death or penalty of all sin placed upon Him, then we have another example of what the penalty of sin is...it's exactly as John 3:16 says it is. It is not to suffer unending pain and torment, but to perish/die ultimately a total and complete separation from the Life Giver.
John 3:16 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

So, this is saying that Jesus died to give whoever believes in him eternal life. It is not some metaphor for what sinners go through when they die. This is not even close to one of God’s metaphors nor would he have a reason to use one in this case. It’s simple and clear as intended.

Did Christ suffer the death of a sinner?

No…because he never sinned…prove he did. If not then he suffered to save us from our sins just as the bible says (many time). John 3:16 (I’ll take that) 1 Peter 3:18 Romans 5:8 Romans 8:32 etc. The death of a sinner would be torment in hell (as the bible says) Luke 16:23,24 because they have to account for their sins against God. Jesus suffered physical pain on earth just as all humans do, both saved and unsaved (more than most I would say). If a human is tormented and beaten on earth (as Jesus was) it does not count for one’s suffering in hell (If you think so prove it). Was Jesus tormented in hell? No (prove it )... Is Jesus eternally separated from himself? No, he is not. And for those that like to bring and end to the existence of the unsaved -(using your idea of the meaning of the scripture). Did Jesus cease to exist.. Nope. If we complete the process of what Jesus did and not conveniently cut things out as you are doing than the sinner would leave hell, ascend to heaven, enter the Most Holy Place, offer their blood Hebrews 9:11,13 and live with God forever. Does the bible confirm any of this for the unsaved…No way in the world (If you think so prove it). So, the statement and scripture you gave as an example/metaphor for the process an unsaved/sinner goes through when they die does not fit the process Jesus went through when he died so your reasoning does not work.

Back to the scripture John 3:16 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Then you say…
BavarianWheels wrote:There is much in scripture that gives evidence to complete death. God never made humanity "eternal souls" that cannot die if God "alone is immortal" (1 Timothy 6:16), why then must we be changed from mortal to immortal, perishable to imperishable? If our spirit is already immortal...and we get new bodies....??
1.That say’s nothing about complete death for humans.
2. If God alone possesses immortality than that would mean that humans could not have immortality so it is not meant to say that God is the only one who can have immortality.

John 3:16 answers your question..God is immortal by nature but he promised that he would give man immortality Titus 1:2. God will raise the dead Revelation 20:13 and put and end to death (no one dies) Revelation 20:14 And just to reinforce this, the bible say’s Hebrews 9:27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Judgment, that’s it, no death, no one can die and it’s time for the unsaved to account for sins Revelation 20:15. No way around it wheels…

In any case, as I said earlier “The why and the intent are very important to God. And his word is made to help and aid us in many areas. His word will cause many feelings, resistance, peace, joy, worrier etc. But it is all good and causes us to keep searching for the truth, not only the truth behind his words but the truth in our heart.”

Everyone think about that instead of worrying about if people burn or not. It’s important and it’s best to do just as Jesus said. And when talking about hell it’s best to say what he said.
Last edited by J.Davis on Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Huh, a beam in my eye? No, you're mistaken. Let's just say that this patch keeps things....interesting.

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