Sudsy wrote:There is so much here I could debate about what certain scriptures are saying without using your reasonings but I think we would just go in circles. Areas such as what it means to be in God's image; God's fairness to all; God living up to His attributes; what perish/destruction means according to your interpretations; how God MUST act to act in love; your belief in eternal wrath; what the disciples said themselves about eternal torment that was not a writing on what Jesus said; etc, etc.
No, I would not go in circles and I do not wish that for you either. Using my reasoning and trusting that God guides my reasoning, I would achieve God’s goal, that is what I aim for. That goal is not to prove to you that hell is real and that the unsaved will be tormented there forever. The goal is to help God’s creation find Him, find truth, love, peace, joy etc. There are many people involved here, not just us. Our post can not only influence the reader but those the reader speaks to as well as everyone that is connected to those spoken to. We may never know who will accept what, or how what was said will effect lives around the world. We all put what we feel out there for all to see and sometimes someone will challenge our ideas. The same happened with Jesus and he was very diligent about defending his word and reputation, not for himself but so that those listening would consider his words over those that spoke against him. He was wise and brilliant and as far as the bible records, he never loss an argument in public.
My original post here was created to help God’s creation. You challenged (even if not intentionally) that post. So I defended it, not in an attempt to force you to receive the message (I don’t do that) but to keep the message alive so that those who wish to receive it can do so with as little doubt as possible. As long as you are ok with that, and knowing that I will do my best to grind your argument into fine paste and spread it so thin that not even a single thought sticks, then we can debate with the understanding that no harm is intended at all….LOL. No, you’re new and I think young in Christ…But be ready for full force next time.
So many things are confused concerning the bible as well as the confusion the unsaved believe about the church. It’s as the bible says it will be but we still have to make our best effort to get the truth out.
Sudsy wrote:It was encouraging though to see you at least do believe in degrees of punishment. What is really suspect though in your logic is that if I do something that merits a slap on my hand for a mistake in this life, one slap and the sentence is over, justice is complete. However, this 'slap' in eternity is one that goes on 'forever and ever'. And the good unbelievers may have done, do they experience an endless amount of reward also for their good deeds ? And all this is being fair and just in your view ? Have you thought about the fact that Jesus took on the wrath of God against all sin within a few hours and then the wrath of God was satisfied ? I expect here again you have answers that we might differ on.
Keeping this short…It is not what I believe, it’s what the bible (God) says concerning the matter. He gives degrees of punishment. A slap on the hand? Bad Analogy. It would be more accurate to say that taking life get’s you life in prisons. God believes that everything is his. Psalm 24:1 1 Corinthians 10:26 Jeremiah 27:5 But he gives us dominion of the earth and free will. We are free but when it is all said and done, God is going to come and get what’s his, because he made us and loves us. If he finds that we reject him (the free will part) then we have to account for God not having what He made, what he loves and what is rightfully His etc. If he is missing an eternal life than whoever has it (the unsaved) will be punished for eternity, it‘s a fair trade and it’s our choice. And there is much, much more to it than that and it has been talked about in many threads here. The other major point is that hell is the best environment for the unsaved to have comfort and the life they are used to etc. Sounds wild but if you really understand the examples I gave on the equal moral exchange post than you can kind of get the idea.
Concerning the unsaved doing good deeds? God’s work through his children (the saved) is what get’s rewards. And what Jesus did was to give a gift and sacrifice himself. He was in no way suffering the wrath of himself nor did he sin in anyway whatsoever. He was just saving his creation.
Sudsy wrote:And regarding what eternal torment believers do with their time - sorry, I do know that most of them are not predominantly concerned with saving the lost. How this is not obvious to you is very puzzling.
That is not my experience, maybe I do hang around a seriously dedicated crowd, I can’t say. But I have been around a ton of Christians who do a lot for others. Furthermore, it’s a new world and the internet is an extremely powerful force that continues to grow. God’s saints work and minister in this new way as well as others. And God is proud of many of his children that work in this way for him, if not, than Satan will consume one of the most powerful tools in existence today (the internet). There are Admin’s and local members here with thousands of post, ministering on God’s behalf and God accepts that as great work. They choose to accept the job, they do not have to.
I will most likely never have so many post and the work needs to be done, God works through his saints in many ways. And the work he want’s his saints to do on the web is just as important as what other do in person. Just as you read the bible and find help, many read these forums and find help. And this is absolutely the most knowledgeable group I have seen on the internet. Also, as Bart said, many give to churches and organizations that can carry out God’s work in the way the one giving approves of. If not for the support of God’s people then the 700 club, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyers etc would not be able to minister on the level they do, and such groups help millions. And God sees their giving and it is great work, they do not have to give. And there are many, many more ways that Christians help because they have a need to spread God’s message.
Sudsy, you are right and we agree concerning the fact that it is better to focus on the good. I was clear on that, again, the hell message is not my style and I do not do it often at all. But it is in no way right to criticize those God has given the message to. It is a very important message and needs to be spread just as much as others, especially with all the confusion on the topic. God mentioned hell to many, not just the Pharisees and we should support or brothers and sisters who God has given the message to. The message of hell is the only way to open the eye’s of many who are blind, so they can see the truth in their life.
Support those with the gift to free them…
As for me, I will help with the topic when I feel lead to but mostly I will leave it to those with more experience (not everyone can say they have acutely been to hell, a rare gift indeed).
Enjoy your vacation Sudsy! And you say you are saved so no worriers about hell..
Huh, a beam in my eye? No, you're mistaken. Let's just say that this patch keeps things....interesting.