Did God create evil/why does he allow it??

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Alan McDougall
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Did God create evil/why does he allow it??

#1

Post by Alan McDougall » Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:59 am

Hi,

Did God create evil as a way of realising goodness?? God is supreme and the ultimate in accountability for good and evil is his (The buck really really stops with him)

Why did God stand back and do nothing during the holocuast?

Why does God permit natural catastrophes like the tsunami that killed 250 thousand people recently?

Why does God create an entity like a virus that does nothing but kill its host?

Etc Etc
God Bless in Jesus name

Alan

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Re: Did God create evil/why does he allow it??

#2

Post by ageofknowledge » Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:50 am

I could direct you to several good books that can help you with this subject but there are already numerous threads where all of these questions have already been answered. See the Search field in the right hand side of your screen. Type the world evil in there and start your search.

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Re: Did God create evil/why does he allow it??

#3

Post by jlay » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:40 pm

Why did God stand back and do nothing during the holocuast?
Alan,

Let me answer a question with a question. Have you ever done anything evil? Evil being a violation of God's law. If you are like the rest of humanity including myself, you would say, yes.

Why did God allow you to do this? God could have wiped you off the map, or never have let you be born. Did God cause you to do evil?? No. But he allowed it to happen.

The whole redemtive process is a plan. God foreknew the evil you would do. Yet he had already appropriated a way to commute your sins, and impute righteousness to you. (Rom 3:23) The acts of the holocaust were terrible. But so is every act of evil perpetrated against a pure and holy God. You may not see your acts of evil as serious as the holocaust, but that doesn't mean they aren't serious. Before you try to say, "I haven't done anything as serious as the holocaust," let me point something out.
God created this world and universe 'good.' It was thrown in tumult when mankind went against the wishes of God. What was this terrible, evil, wicked act that mankind did to throw the entire creation into chaos and suffering? Did he murder someone? Commit atrocious crimes? No. He ate a fruit. HE ATE A FRUIT!! God said, don't eat that, and he ate it. That's it. What does this tell us? That God is infinately more Holy than we can fathom. How many times have my parents said, "don't touch this, or don't do that?" I can't even count. But this is exactly what God saw as reason to cast mankind from paradise. Adam didn't perpetrate a holocaust. But his little discretion led to it, and every evil thing to ever happen since.

So why does God allow terrible things to happen, and allow us to commit our own sins? Because God desires intimate fellowship with us. Huh?? Let me explain. How can God have perfect obedience from a creature that He has given conscience and free will? That can only happen if that being surrenders its free will to Him. The reality is that mankind was on the edge of condemnation from day one. What is God's purpose for creating mankind. We were created to glorify Him. Being created by God, man is lower than God and not a perfect, Holy being. If God had created such perfect, holy beings, then he would have recreated himself, which is a whole other paradox in itself. It must be the way it is. To give up our free will, we must have a free will to surrender. Think about this. Eve could have gone straight to God when approached by the serpent. She could have surrendered her will to God right then and there. But she didn't. Adam, could have gone to God when presented the fruit from Eve. He didn't. The result is that the consequences resulting from the fall must happen. If God were to prevent the consequences of free-will then it wouldn't be free-will at all. To redeem a fallen man, the brutal realities of the fall had to take place, and are still taking place. As ugly as it is, it demonstrates what man is apart from the redemtion of God.

When one comes to Christ, they surrender themselves to God. What is it that causes the holocaust? What is it that causes the sufferings that man brings upon himself. Self-soveriegnty. Isn't that what happened in the garden. Man saying he wants to rule over his own life. In the new heaven and earth, man will not rule himself. Heaven will be filled with redeemed humans who have laid down their lives in surrender, to say, "not my will, but thine be done." If you remove will, you remove sin. If God had made us without will in the first place, then the chance for intimacy could not happen. It is hard for us to fathom, because even as saved people we must continue to live in this fallen world.

This is our hope. Of a life where we will be the righteousness of God, free from sin and temptation, surrendered in perfect obedience to a perfect God.

If God does not allow you to sin, then what value is there in the cross of Christ. And so it is with everyone.

I would also content that we can't say God stood back and did nothing. Had others not intervened, the holocaust would have been a thousand times worse. I would contend that God's hand was instrumental in leading the allies to victory. Who knows how much worse it could have been.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: Did God create evil/why does he allow it??

#4

Post by Gman » Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:50 pm

Alan McDougall wrote:Hi,

Did God create evil as a way of realising goodness?? God is supreme and the ultimate in accountability for good and evil is his (The buck really really stops with him)

Why did God stand back and do nothing during the holocuast?

Why does God permit natural catastrophes like the tsunami that killed 250 thousand people recently?

Why does God create an entity like a virus that does nothing but kill its host?

Etc Etc
You will find most of the answers here... A lot of this boils down to free will.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... sHBBJ0VpWs
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Did God create evil/why does he allow it??

#5

Post by B. W. » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:18 am

An interesting passage of scripture is found in John 5:40 when Jesus addressed the religious leaders he said, “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.” NKJV

From this notice how the word translated willing is used. It is θέλete -- Thelete -- from Thelo - will which is defined — as the act of willing, act of desiring, to intend, to resolve in order to actively determine to set a course of action hense -- act of the will... The Greek tense it is used in this text points to the moment in which Jesus spoke this, thus, the word willingly or willing is a good word to use to translate this Greek word.

Jesus in this verse is stating that they were not willing to come to him. In other words, they were actively resolved by the act of their own free will not to believe Jesus.

Now in John 4:23 we have Jesus stating that the Father 'seeks' those that will worship him. The Greek word translated as seeks is interesting as it denotes: to seek by thinking, reasoning, by enquiry into matters, to ponder in the sense of reason with someone in order to draw them

So what does this have to do with anything about free will or evil? Answer: Much because three biblical principles are lain out in these verses:

First Principle:God desires people to willingly come to him

Secondly Principle: God draws those that He foreknows will willingly come to him through use of reason and intellect (Isaiah 1:18, Romans 8:29).

Third Principle: Sin remains the creatures own will-desire-intent - θέλete -- Thelete - Thelo.

God is seeking out those who he Foreknew will willingly worship him through the usages of the words of reason and those who will not. In John 5:40 the religious leaders were confronted with this form of reason by rebuke and confrontation to reason with the Lord through the scriptures.

This in essence is stating the principle that God respects the independent reason (free will) of a person because He is seeking out those who are willing to believe to be saved from amongst those who will not. He confronts everyone with this in many diverse ways despite foreknowing the outcome of his own Word sent (John 1:1) to reason with humanity.

God does not force — He reasons with in order to draw out and to separate those willing and not willing. Sin remains the creatures own choice (Note John 3:18, 19, 20).

Reader - How is He Drawing You?
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Re: Did God create evil/why does he allow it??

#6

Post by ageofknowledge » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:23 pm

B. W. wrote:Reader - How is He Drawing You?
My answer: Through reason and love.

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Re: Did God create evil/why does he allow it??

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Post by Alan McDougall » Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:12 pm

Is there a thank you facility? I would like to thank all of you for great responses
God Bless in Jesus name

Alan

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Re: Did God create evil/why does he allow it??

#8

Post by dienomore » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:26 pm

Hello group!

I am new to these boards and I am happy to be here!

(Isa. 45:7) "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

(Isa. 54:16) "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy."

So yes, God created evil.

The problem of evil and the judgments of God are certainly a difficult topic to wrap our minds around. Also, one of the first things encountered in the Garden of Eden is the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. This reaching forth and the partaking of that tree's fruit, brought trouble and sin upon us all! And here we are, redeemed, and still seeking to understand that beautiful knowledge that got imparted to our original parents so very long ago.

God clearly stated his Ultimate Intention to "Make man in his image and likeness". (Gen.1:26) The forbidden tree of Eden had fruit on it, which was pleasing to the eye. Throughout scripture, the eye represents our understanding. The fruit of this tree was the knowledge, which comes from knowing the difference between Good and Evil. The amazing thing is that that knowledge is what made Adam like God! (Gen. 3:22) Knowing the difference between good and evil is the first step in being made in the image and likeness of God.

Most people think that God accomplished that stated goal when he created Adam. But it was not until Jesus came along that we read that He was the exact image AND representation of the Father. (2 Cor.4:4; Col 1:15, 3:10; Heb. 1:3; Jn. 8:19)
Now, through Jesus Christ, the Adamic race is able to be transfigured into the exact same image from glory to glory. (1 Cor.15:49; 2 Cor. 3:18;) Now, through Jesus, Father is bringing about His Eternal Purpose for all mankind: being made in His image and likeness.

The process that God uses is that of lowering us into a state of existence that teaches us the pairs of opposites. Good and evil; light and darkness; life and death; up and down; hot and cold, etc. It is axiomatic that everything finds its own definition in its opposite. We tell a baby, 'don't touch that it is hot', but it is not until that baby actually touches the hot burner that it begins to comprehend what 'hot' is.

No parent wants his or her child to get hurt. But every parent wants their child to understand the dangers that our existence contains. It is not possible for that to happen without some pain and suffering along the way. In fact, there are those things I used to consider as very evil, which I no longer consider as such. The same is true about the things I thought were good, aren't really all that good for me. The definition of Wisdom is 'to know the difference'.

God is making us into His image and likeness. Adam was innocent in the garden. But there is no virtue in innocence. We all love little babies, even when they mess their diapers; and we gather round them as say how cute and innocent they are. What if, twenty years go by and for some genetic reason that baby has not changed in mind but its body is grown and hairy and still messing its diapers? Still innocent, but not very fun or pretty! What virtue does that innocence have? So, too, Adam had to begin the process of "learning to discern both good and evil through the exercise of our senses".

"But strong meat (deep revelation) belongeth to them that are of full age,(spiritual maturity) even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (Hebrews 5:14) It is through the use of the five senses that we gain understanding of what evil and good are. Only then can God begin to show us deep spiritual revelation. Until that happens, there still remains milk for babies. But, God needs us to grow up into Him in ALL things! (Eph. 4:15)


This is just a very short answer to a very involved topic. I hope I was able to convey something that speaks to your inquiry.

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Re: Did God create evil/why does he allow it??

#9

Post by B. W. » Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:28 am

dienomore wrote:Hello group!

I am new to these boards and I am happy to be here!

(Isa. 45:7) "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

(Isa. 54:16) "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy."

So yes, God created evil.

The problem of evil and the judgments of God are certainly a difficult topic to wrap our minds around. Also, one of the first things encountered in the Garden of Eden is the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. This reaching forth and the partaking of that tree's fruit, brought trouble and sin upon us all! And here we are, redeemed, and still seeking to understand that beautiful knowledge that got imparted to our original parents so very long ago...
A few things to note:

Isa 45:7 and Isa 54:16 translated from the old English of the KJV uses English words that have changed there meaning with time.

Isa. 45:7) "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

The word in this verse translated create is better understood as "too fashion, shape, form" as well as "darkness" means "ruin, destruction" and "evil" means calamity. The Lord fashions - shapes calamity and those that bring ruin and calamity (darkness) for some greater purpose He his aiming for in many diverse ways...

This is brought out in:

(Isa. 54:16) "Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy."

Basically to sum it up - God is sovereign and in control and capable of controling and working through all things. He permits things and works through these. If He cannot work through all things, then he cannot be all powerful. He permits free will in his created beings and can work through thier free moral agency. If not, how can he be truly all powerful if He denies free moral agency? Would this not mean he is not all powerfully able to work through all things all powerfully?

God is not a slave to our, or even the angelic beings, free moral agency - instead:

(Isa. 45:7) "I form the light, and create (fashion, shape) darkness (ruin): I make peace, and create (fashion, shape) evil (calamity): I the LORD do all these things."

(Isa. 54:16) "Behold, I have created (fashiond, shaped)the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created (fashiond, shaped) the waster to destroy (bring to ruin)."

Next, go back and look at the context that these passages are posted in. The aim was to awaken people to his - her and national need for the Lord and return to Him... by use of calamity and ruin -- a sobering thought in light of todays Political, culture and social discourses today...

lastly - sorry for mispeled words as I am writing from a coffee shop... Hope this helps a bit...
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Re: Did God create evil/why does he allow it??

#10

Post by Cactus » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:09 pm

Yea dont use the KJV unless you live 400 years ago, which i assume u dont :P

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