The Old Testament Concept of God

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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B. W.
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

#16

Post by B. W. » Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm

cslewislover wrote:
B. W. wrote:To any who read this - are you learning anything? Is anything not clear?
I've been reading, but since this is mostly new to me, that's what I've been doing: reading and taking it in. I don't have any problem with the trinity, so the issue never had come up in my mind. One question I do have, though, is about the angels. Since it doesn't say when they were created, could they possibly have been made early and have watched? Or am I missing or forgetting something? That's the only thing I wondered, lol. Obviously Satan was around by the time Eve was.
Only scripture I can find regarding this is Ps 148. It appears God made angels sometime around when the stars, sun, and moon were made but again the text is vague. I should have clarified 'watching' as actively participating in creation.

Granted angels could have been around but the bible is certainly clear that only God made everything without help from angelic beings. Some Anti-Trinitarian groups do take exegetical license with this and attempt to use the 'us' and 'our' in Genesis 1:26 and elsewhere as referring to angelic beings, host, buzzing about.

However the grammar of Gen 1:26 contradicts this: "God (Plural noun) said (singular verb), “let us make {plural verb} man in our (plural suffix) image (Singular noun) and our (plural suffix) likeness (singular noun)."

You have a plural noun and the verb forms are also plural as well as a plural suffix. This points out relationship too the Plural Noun "God - Elohim. So the 'us and our refer to God himself and not anyone else.

This is backed up in scriptures I listed in above last two post. Some Anti-Trinitarian groups attempt to make the Majestic Plural into a heavenly court God is speaking too. Again the bible refutes this as well as the grammar.

Angels may have been around but they were not the us and our (that) God was talking too. For instance, if so, then the plural suffix (our) would make angels in the same class and equal with God himself. Again Bible refutes this.

Hope this help to clarify a bit more :)
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

#17

Post by Cross.eyed » Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:30 pm

B.W. wrote:
To any who read this - are you learning anything? Is anything not clear?
I've learned alot about the meaning of (Hebrew) words and how translations can make a huge difference.

You've been very clear with word meaning and usage-thank you.
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

#18

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:58 pm

B. W. wrote:To any who read this - are you learning anything? Is anything not clear?
There is an enormous amount of information here. I am just overwhelmed. I have seen a similar exposition from Rabbi Meno Kalisher* but his was of smaller scope.

FL

*a messianic rabbi from Jerusalem.
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

#19

Post by B. W. » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:32 am

Hi everyone,

I have not forgotten this thread. Family had company last week so I am a bit behind in continuing.

FYI:

For those in Fresno and Southern CA area - on 1/2/2009 a new show started on a secular station - channel 53 in Fresno at 12 midnight. I was interviewed for this show last April and that show will air 1/16 - this Friday. So I'll be on TV in the Southern CA area this Friday. Comcast and Dishnetwork also will air show in the local areas

If you watch the show, keep in mind I lost a lot of weight since April due to recent illness last September/October/ November . Illness from Doctor's perspective is due to a long term effect of what I contracted in 1980 (which, by the way the show speaks of and why I am in it). What I had in 1980 slowly weakened the nerve endings inside my gut over the years causing these to short circuit causing all kinds of issues these past few months. Pain still comes and goes reminding me of the grace of God that I am still alive!

Not the best weight loss plan but if you see the show - I lost over 20 pounds since it was filmed and quite skinny now. In fact, when family company came by last week they made repeated comments about how different I look! It feels good to loose the pounds!
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

#20

Post by cslewislover » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:38 am

Well, I wonder if it will be on any stations around here? What is the show called?

B.W., I'm sorry you have these health issues. I'll be praying for you.
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

#21

Post by BavarianWheels » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:41 am

B. W. wrote:Hi everyone,

I have not forgotten this thread. Family had company last week so I am a bit behind in continuing.

FYI:

For those in Fresno and Southern CA area — on 1/2/2009 a new show started on a secular station — channel 53 in Fresno at 12 midnight. I was interviewed for this show last April and that show will air 1/16 — this Friday. So I'll be on TV in the Southern CA area this Friday. Comcast and Dishnetwork also will air show in the local area…

If you watch the show, keep in mind I lost a lot of weight since April due to recent illness last September/October/ November . Illness from Doctor's perspective is due to a long term effect of what I contracted in 1980 (which, by the way the show speaks of and why I am in it). What I had in 1980 slowly weakened the nerve endings inside my gut over the years causing these to short circuit causing all kinds of issues these past few months. Pain still comes and goes reminding me of the grace of God that I am still alive!

Not the best weight loss plan but if you see the show — I lost over 20 pounds since it was filmed and quite skinny now. In fact, when family company came by last week they made repeated comments about how different I look! It feels good to loose the pounds!
So for those of us without Comcast or Dish Network...by what name does the show go by? I just ask because you never say which show or for what station, interviewed by whom...??? I need just a hair more information.
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

#22

Post by B. W. » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:44 am

BavarianWheels wrote:...So for those of us without Comcast or Dish Network...by what name does the show go by? I just ask because you never say which show or for what station, interviewed by whom...??? I need just a hair more information.
Whoops - show is called - 'Stories of the Supernatural...'
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

#23

Post by B. W. » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:30 pm

Post 7

The Malek of Yahweh


The Hebrew word Malek simply means; a messenger, a representative for (to do) a task.

This word is used often to describe angelic beings who bear a message and/or assigned to do task for God. Angelic beings are described as Cherubim (Ezekiel 10:1-15) and Seraphim (Isaiah 6:2-3). Angelic beings bear messages (Matt 1:20) and do task (Matt 28:2). They also sing, and use musical devices. There are archangels too and they have ranks.

Since Cherubim and Seraphim do task and proclaim messages, they are called Maleks (Messengers) in the bible. The word when used does not always mean angelic beings and this is where people become confused. Malek's are also used of human beings who bear a message.

1 Samuel 11:3-4 states that, The elders of Jabesh said to him, "Give us seven days' respite that we may send messengers (Maleks) through all the territory of Israel…4 messengers (Maleks) came to Gibeah of Saul, they reported the matter in the ears of the people, and all the people wept aloud.

These were human Maleks and not angelic beings. Therefore, every where the Hebrew word Malek is used, it does not in all cases mean angelic beings. The word Malek is a generic term for any type person or being that bears a message and does a task. It is unfortunate that people do not understand this and think of Maleks only in angelic terms and definitions. The important thing to note about Maleks is that they speak!

It is how the word Malek is used in the sentence and contextual flow of bible passages is how a person can tell the difference if a Malek is human, angelic, or divine. The word Malek is also used of God himself being a proclaimer of a direct message as well. Yes, Yahweh can be a Malek himself (not an angelic being but the word (John 1:1-14).

The Malek of Yahweh

In the Old Testament you will notice the phrase the angel of the LORD. When this phrase is used, it does not always mean an angelic being but rather reads like this: The Malek of Yahweh.' This indicates that God himself speaking — not an angelic representative as interpreted by some. Again, it is the context of the bible passages where this phrase is found is how to correctly interpret the use of the word malek.

Simply applying the definition of an angel everywhere malek is used creates error. Theme, context, and continuity as well as homiletic is the best way to come into an understanding of scripture text. This avoids great errors and heresy.

What we will look at, is how the word Malek relates to God himself.

Notice that The Malek of Yahweh speaks as God does. Representatives in the bible state things like, 'thus sayeth the Lord,' hear the word of the Lord', etc, as a qualifier. Let's look at how the Malek of Yahweh speaks as only God can speak:

Genesis 16:7-11, The Malek of Yahweh (the LORD) found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, the spring on the way to Shur. 8 And he said, "Hagar, servant of Sarai, where have you come from and where are you going?" She said, "I am fleeing from my mistress Sarai." 9 The Malek of Yahweh (the LORD) said to her, "Return to your mistress and submit to her." 10 The Malek of Yahweh (the LORD) also said to her, "I will surely multiply your offspring so that they cannot be numbered for multitude." 11 And the Malek of Yahweh (the LORD) said to her, "Behold, you are pregnant and shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because Yahweh (the LORD) has listened to your affliction."

Notice that I removed the word angel from these passages and used malek instead and replaced -the LORD- with the actual word used in their place which is God’s identifying name - Yahweh. Now look at and notice that in verses 10 this Malek can only do what God can do. (Note - Romans 4:17 and Isaiah 44:7 state that only God can call things that be-not as though they were.)

Genesis 21:17, And God (Elohim) heard the voice of the boy, and the (Malek) of God (Elohim) called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, "What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not, for God (Elohim) has heard the voice of the boy where he is.

Notice in this verse God (Elohim plural noun) heard. Then the messenger (Elohim) called out because Elohim heard. Do you see it? Can you get past the angel thing as well as look a the grammar of this on your own for now (note the word of is actually implied - Malek of God = grammar-- Malek Elohim) Here the Malek speaks as only God can.

Now look who Hagar in Genesis 16:13 identifies as the Malek of Yahweh: "So she called the name of Yahweh (the LORD) who spoke to her, "You are a (El) God of seeing," for she said, "Truly here I have seen him who looks after me."

Why would Hagar call a mere angel - Yahweh? She saw him who looked after her! Yes, people can see God and live (Ex 24:9-12); however, one cannot see the full manifested glory of God (His totality) and live (Ex 33:18-23). People in the Old Testament did encounter and see each of the separate persons of the Godhead so they could live and proclaim his name.

Do not believe me?

Genesis 22:1518, And the Malek (of) Yahweh (the LORD) called to Abraham a second time from heaven 16 and said, "By myself I have sworn, declares Yahweh (the LORD), because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, 18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice." Notice - my voice - and what John 1:1 mentions...

The Malek of Yahweh (of is implied and added into English translations) and called to Abraham a second time and stated that He (the Malek Yahweh) by himself sworn to Abraham (verse 17) what God sworn in Genesis 12:1-3, 15:5, 17:5-6. 18:18. If this were but a mere angelic being representative - how could such a malek have sworn an oath that only God can swear by?

Hebrews 6:13-14, For when God made a promise to Abraham, since he had no one greater by whom to swear, he swore by himself, 14 saying, "Surely I will bless you and multiply you."

Notice also how many times God spoke in Genesis 22:1-18 — a total of three distinct times! First in Gen 22:1, then in verse 11(Gen 22:11) and in verse 15 (Gen 22:15) You could say, the Father spoke first and the Son spoke twice and also the proper name Yahweh is also mentioned in verse 16 (Gen 22:16) and could very well denote the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one. Thus you have God confirming his own oath as Hebrews 6:13-14 states!

Elsewhere in the Bible

In Numbers 22:35, 38, And the angel (Malek) of (Yahweh)the LORD said to Balaam, "Go with the men, but speak only the word that I tell you." So Balaam went on with the princes of Balak

In verse 38 identifies who the Malek of Yahweh is:

38 Balaam said to Balak, "Behold, I have come to you! Have I now any power of my own to speak anything? The word that God (Elohim - plural noun) puts in my mouth, that must I speak."

Again in Judges 2:1- and Judges 6:11-16 the Malek speaks as only God could.

Judges 2:1, "And the angel (Malek) of (Yahweh) the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said: '...I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I swore unto your fathers; and I said: I will never break My covenant with you..."JPS

Judges 6:11-16, And the Malek of Yahweh (the LORD) came, and sat under the terebinth which was in Ophrah, that belonged unto Joash the Abiezrite; and his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites. 12 And the Malek of Yahweh (the LORD) appeared unto him, and said unto him: Yahweh (the LORD) is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.' JPS

13 And Gideon said unto him: 'Oh, my lord (adoni), if Yahweh (the LORD) be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where are all His wondrous works which our fathers told us of, saying: Did not Yahweh (the LORD) bring us up from Egypt? but now Yahweh (the LORD) hath cast us off, and delivered us into the hand of Midian.' JPS

Note who turned toward him - was not this the same person who sat under the tree?

Judges 6:14-16
, And Yahweh (the LORD) turned towards him, and said: 'Go in this thy might, and save Israel from the hand of Midian; have not I sent thee?' 15 And he said unto him: 'Oh, my lord (adoni), wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is the poorest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house.' 16 And Yahweh (the LORD) said unto him: 'Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man. JPS

The adoni Gideon uses in his speech should be capitalized to indicate the LORD and not a lord as verse 15 clarifies because Yahweh is speaking - the Malek Yahweh was speaking — Note John 1:1-14.

In fact in Gen 31:11-13 the Malek identifies himself as El (God)in verse 13:

Then the angel (Malek) of God (Elohim) said to me in the dream, 'Jacob,' and I said, 'Here I am!' Gen 31:12 And he said, 'Lift up your eyes and see, all the goats that mate with the flock are striped, spotted, and mottled, for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. 13 I am the (El) God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and made a vow to me. Now arise, go out from this land and return to the land of your kindred.'"

Look at Exodus 3:2 -6:

And the angel (Malek) of (Yahweh) the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, "I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned." 4 When (Yahweh) the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God (Elohim) called to him out of the bush, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." 5 Then he said, "Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground." 6 And he said, "I am the God (Elohim) of your father, the God (Elohim) of Abraham, the God (Elohim) of Isaac, and the God (Elohim) of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God (Elohim).

Again the Malek of Yahweh identifies Himself as God in verse 6 after all - who is directly speaking? A representative when such speak on God’s behalf they state a hearty, 'thus says the Lord' or 'hear the word of the Lord' or 'God says' qualifying they are not God. Not so in the burning bush account! There will be more on Moses and the burning bush in next installment. You all have enough to make your head to spin for today.

John 1:1-3, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made

Remember a Malek speaks and performs task! The 2nd person of the Trinity is such one that speaks and carries out task! Does He not?

(Note all Bible quotes from ESV unless otherwise cited)
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

#24

Post by B. W. » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:46 pm

Post 8

Study of the word 'Malek' Continued:


In Exodus 3:2 -6 we have the phrase Angel of the LORD' while the Hebrew text reads The Malek Yahweh or the Messenger (of) Yahweh.' Since malek is so often translated as angel in English, malek unfortunately loses it original meaning of a simple undefined messenger who often also performs a task. A malek can either be human, angelic, or divine as the context of text defines.

Here in Exodus 3:2 -6 the context should read messengerand not angel. But angelwas used in the translation of malek in this verse instead. This helps people imagine an angelic being was in the burning bush Moses saw. This comes from reading the Acts 7:30-35 translated account of the same incident even when Acts 7 indicates that messenger to be God and not an angelic being (Young’s Literal Translation has it right as - messenger).

The Greek word for angel can be used to describe any type of messenger much in the same way the Hebrew word 'malek' was used. So did Moses see an angelic being that covered God so Moses could be protected or did Moses noticed God? Remember, in Exodus 24 people did see God as he chooses to reveal himself and still live!

Young’s Literal Translation of Act 7:30 reads: and forty years having been fulfilled, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai a messenger of the Lord, in a flame of fire of a bush 

When an angelic (malek) being speaks for God in the bible, there was a verbal qualifier used to denote this, such as: God says, God will do this, thus says the Lord, hear the word of the Lord, etc and etc. Also, when people tried to bow and worship angels, the bible tells us they were stopped (Revelation 22:8-9) by the angel themselves. Also the Old Testament (OT) specifically states that only too God are people to worship and bow too.

In Exodus 3:2 -6 you have evidence that this particular Malek had no problem with Moses bowing before him. This malek was the Messenger Yahweh or with the preposition of added in, Messenger of Yahweh.Was this messenger divine or really an angelic being? Let’s look more closely and uncover who he is.

Uncovering the Text

Exodus 3:2-3
, And the angel (Malek) of (Yahweh) the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He (Moses) looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, "I will turn aside to see this great sight, why the bush is not burned."

In the Exodus 3 account the Malek of Yahweh appeared to Moses in the flame of fire midst the bush. If this were an angelic messenger then in verse 6 this angelic being would be crossing the line by saying he was God (Elohim) Himself! In Isaiah 14:12-14 there is an example of one who did just that! So how could this Malek in the bush be an angelic creature and declare himself to be God since to do so is in itself a sign of blasphemous rebellion against God?

Exodus 3:4-5, "When (Yahweh) the LORD saw that he (Moses) turned aside to see, God (Elohim) called to him out of the bush, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." 5 Then he said, "Do not come near; take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground."

Look at the context, first the Malek Yahweh appears, and then Yahweh saw Moses. Then Elohim calls out to Moses. Next Elohim tells Moses he is standing on Holy Ground. Note that the titles Yahweh and Elohim can refer to any person of the Trinity and context will identify who. Are these two or one person speaking - we shall soon see.

Exodus 3:6, And he said, "I am the God (Elohim) of your father, the God (Elohim) of Abraham, the God (Elohim) of Isaac, and the God (Elohim) of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God (Elohim).

Notice in the above text that Moses was afraid to look at God (Elohim). How could that be if there was an angelic being covering God? Elohim was telling he was the same God that the others had seen and encountered. Now it was Moses turn!

Who is Speaking?

Exodus 3:7, Then (Yahweh) the LORD said, "I have surely seen the affliction of my people who are in Egypt and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters. I know their sufferings."

Yahweh speaks in verse 8-10 and Moses calls Yahweh — haElohim in verses 11, 12, and 13.

Exodus 3:11-13, But Moses said to (haElohim) God, "Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the children of Israel out of Egypt?" 12 He (God) said, "But I will be with you, and this shall be the sign for you, that I have sent you: when you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall serve God (haElohim) on this mountain." 13 Then Moses said to (haElohim) God, "If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, 'The (Elohim) God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' what shall I say to them?"

This is very profound and is missed in English Translations and that is the spelling of haElohim. Ha — is Hebrew word form attached to a word that expresses (ALL) THE or Something that is all inclusive about what it is attached to. For Example: haElohim means - God in all His entirety. Thus expressing the Godhead! This word expresses the totality of God. Also when this word is used in context of false gods it reads in the bible as all the gods. More on this word next posting.

Why was such a word chosen that means - the gods - means also God in his entirety as well?

Exodus 3:14, (Elohim) God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Mystery solved

Now look at Exodus 6:2-3, (Elohim) God spoke to Moses and said to him, "I am (Yahweh) the LORD. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as (El Shaddai) God Almighty, but by my name (Yahweh) the LORD I did not make myself known to them."

Moses addressed the Malek of Yahweh as Elohim and haElohim in Exodus 3:2-16. Why? Exodus 6:2-3 tells why. Before that point in time, the Patriarchs, including Moses, only knew him as Elohim just as Exodus 6:2-3 clearly states!

Also, in Exodus 3:14 notice that Elohim said I AM” three times and that Moses referred too God as haElohim in verses 11-13. Later Jesus uncovers for us who Moses encountered in, John 8:58, Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

The Malek Yahweh that Moses encountered was the preincarnate Christ - The second person of the Trinity! The very one Jacob wrestled with EL Shaddai! Malek simply means messenger and a messenger speaks as well as performs task. Jesus was called what in John 1:1-3?

With this note what Jesus said in John 10:30, I and the Father are one."

Again notice in John 15:26 what Jesus said about the Holy Spirit: "But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

When Moses was addressing haElohim guess who else was in the bush and may have said the other two I AM’s recorded in Exodus 3:14!

In John 8:58 Jesus said I AM only once!

Luke 24:27, …and having begun from Moses, and from all the prophets, he (Jesus) was expounding to them in all the Writings the things about himself." YLT

I pray you who read this see some of these things as well as revealed in the names used for God: Elohim, Yahewh, El Shaddai, Panim of God, etc:In Jesus name Amen
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Note: In the OT both Yahweh and Elohim can be used as names for both the Father and the Son and context of scripture reveals whom is being referred too. You cannot simply add a name to these title names - you must note context in order to discover whom the name words Yahweh and Elohim refer too. It becomes easy after a few lessons.

(Note all Bible quotes from ESV unless otherwise cited)

Also - I will clean up some of my prior post to get rid of poor grammar I used and clarify meanings more...
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

#25

Post by B. W. » Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:53 am

Post 9

Regarding the above post: look at the biblical symbolism mentioned in the Exodus 3:1-16 account:


Moses encountered God Himself in one burning bush. Moses addressed Malek Yahweh (the Yahweh he was speaking too — note Ex 6:2) as Elohim (Plural Noun) as well as haElohim (Plural noun - all of God in His entirety). HaElohim (God in his entirety) spoke three qualified I AM statements from one Bush that burned but was not consumed. Jesus also stated one qualified I AM statement in John 8:58.

You have the symbolism of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit appearing in one bush whose flame and voice Moses addressed as haElohim (all the God(s) or All of God) within one bush - again within one bush! The symbolism is striking!

A few more points on the Malek of God

Judges 2:1, Now the angel (Malek) of (Yahweh) the LORD went up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, "I brought you up from Egypt and brought you into the land that I swore to give to your fathers. I said, 'I will never break my covenant with you, 2 and you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall break down their altars.' But you have not obeyed my voice. What is this you have done

Notice what is being said in this verse. This Malek made a covenant with Israel and brought the Israelites forbearers out from Egypt. Was this a mere angelic being? Or is this God — the Messenger (the Word mentioned in John 1:1-4)?

Next, who alone made a covenant with the people — an angelic being or God?

Genesis 17:7-8
, …And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God (Elohim) to you and to your offspring after you. 8 And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God (Elohim)."

Now let us proceed and look deeper at the word 'haElohim' before we go further

The word haElohim is unique in its use to describe God. It is used about 366 times in 337 verses and used 335 times in just 12 books of the OT. It is listed in Strong's Concordance as 430 — Elohim. English translations miss its importance when referring to God. When used along with the Malek of Yahweh phrases and the word Elohim, you begin to see something extraordinarily amazing.

HaElohin is the word Elohim with the Hebrew definite article prefix ha (the) attached to Elohim – Ha - implies the - the sum mass of whatever word it is attached too when used with plurals.

Referring to false gods haElohim reads as all the gods (Ex 18:11) or refers to all gods (Judges 10:14). When used of human beings it speaks of all the judges or as 'judges' (Ex 22:8 and Ex 21:6)

It is interesting that the Philistines in 1 Sam 4:8 state that haElohim (Gods) struck the Egyptians. Why was not that plural noun written as a majestic plural? In verse seven, some translations translate God in majestic plural form. The Philistines knew God had come into the camp of the Israelites and they were afraid of the haElohim - God(s) - who smote Egypt.

haElohim is a plural noun with the prefix ha added to it denoting the entire sum - all the the entire mass of something - more than one. You can rightly say it is expressing what Orthodox Christians call the Godhead: (Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, Col 2:9) the Trinity — God in three persons of one essence.

HaElohim was used as a plural and should be read the same way when used to describe God. This also honors God’s incomprehensibleness and truly declares that there are none like Yahweh! Anti-Trinitarians have taken much of the awe of God away from us! Let us not fall into the same trap.

Ponder this a bit more!
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

#26

Post by Zebulon » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:24 am

Thank you B.W. for the time you have given us to explain the differences of God meanings in the OT. I was very confused regarding these facts lately. Thanks for bringing a little light towards this since november.

I always have been a trinity kind of believer, and I must say that at some point I have asked myself, many times, why am I always coming back to Christ. What pushes/pull me in His direction. Then lately you came with that phrase John 8:58, “Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."... and I opened my Bible (Osty, french version) to John 8:58 and continued reading until John 14:12 up to 14:25 (included) and I stumbled at 14:16 "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate/Counselor/(paraclet in french) to be with you always,
17 the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you".


May good health be with you B.W.

Victor

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

#27

Post by B. W. » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:03 am

Post 10

More on use of Ha-Elohim where Post 9 left off


Ha is the Hebrew definite article translated most often as 'the'in the OT. When prefixed to a noun it highlights the meaning of the noun. It tells something specific about the noun it is attached too.

In the book, Basics of Biblical Hebrew, by G. D. Pratico and M. V. Van Pelt section 5.2 - 5.8 the authors give the basics of how ha is used. For you to understand, I'll apply the uses to the following sentence examples below.

When Ha is attached to singular noun, like king , it reads like ha-king and translated as the King. Example, HaKing (the King) went to battle. Ha expresses not 'any old king' but THE KING — a specific king, all that the king is/does: Translated with singular nouns, ha reads as the denoting something specific.

Kieth Andrew Massy's Doctorial Dissertation: The Concord of Collective Nouns and Verbs in biblical Hebrew, A Controlled Study, 1998 University of Wisconsin-Madison, page 28 makes a point about how 'ha' is used with plural nouns. He points out that ha-yam (the People) implies (all) the People. In other words, the prefix ha when used with plurals implies a sum total, the entire group, hence, hayam means all the People and not some of the people but rather all the people is implied.

Example: I saw ha-dog (singular) chase ha-cat (reads like this: I saw the dog chase the cat (singular) Now add the plural dogs to the sentence: I saw ha-dogs (Plural) chase ha-cat(singular). This would read: I saw the dogs (Several dogs implied) chase the cat (one cat).

Elohim is a plural noun and the rules of grammar indicate that when ha is prefixed with a plural it implies 'all the, or the entire group, the total sum of what the plural noun is.

When haElohim Refers false gods haElohim is translated as all the gods (Ex 18:11) or refers to all gods (Judges 10:14). When used of human beings it speaks of all the judges or as ˜judges (Ex 22:8 and Ex 21:6).

When ha is attached in Judges 3:7 to the word baal it reads haBaalim and reads for us as the Baals implying not one Baal - but the entire group of pagan baals (gods) and haAsherot(s). Now, the Hebrew word for all is pounced cowl and when prefixed to elohim it is translated using the plural angels in Psalms 97:7, 9.

Point is this: when ha is prefixed to a plural it implies an entire sum, all inclusive, all the parts of a group. It could read as The God when used but this often messes up English grammar structure so the prefix ha is often left out of our English Translations.

Ha-people (The People) of Iran does not imply an individual person but the entire population of Iran - all the people of Iran. The prefix ha attached to plurals implies the entireness of the noun it is attached to. When used with singular nouns - something specific is being stated about the noun.

HaElohim translated as The God reveals something specific about God as being THE GOD and since elohim is a plural noun, no matter if majestic or not, it expresses all that God is — His complete entirety! THE God(s) or better translated as the Godhead whenever haElohim is used in reference to God in the OT!

We will now look at a few example of haElohim in next post.
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

#28

Post by B. W. » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:18 am

Post 11

Post 11 goes along with the above post 10 “ please review before looking at the example of how haElohim was used in Judges 13 account of the birth of Sampson


We will look at the use of haElohim in Judges 13 and here is a review of haElohim. Ha “ is Hebrew word form attached to a word that expresses “ ALL THE or Something that is all inclusive about what it is attached to. For Example: haElohim means - God in all his entirety. This word expresses the totality of God. Also when this word is used in context of false gods it reads in the bible as all the gods. In other words there is an allâ„¢ associated with this word when prefixed with plurals.

I will place the phrase the Godhead next to haElohim to help capture the depth of meaning of haElohim a bit better:

Judges 13:6-22. Then the woman came and told her husband, "A man of God (haElohim - the Godhead) came to me, and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel (Malek-messenger) of God (haElohim - the Godhead), very awesome. I did not ask him where he was from, and he did not tell me his name, 7 but he said to me, 'Behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. So then drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God (Elohim - plural noun) from the womb to the day of his death.'"

8 Then Manoah prayed to the LORD (Yahweh) and said, "O Lord (Yahweh), please let the man of God (haElohim - the Godhead) whom you sent come again to us and teach us what we are to do with the child who will be born.." 9 And God (haElohim - the Godhead) listened to the voice of Manoah, and the angel (Malek -messenger) of God (haElohim - the Godhead) came again to the woman as she sat in the field. But Manoah her husband was not with her.

10 So the woman ran quickly and told her husband, "Behold, the man who came to me the other day has appeared to me." 11 And Manoah arose and went after his wife and came to the man and said to him, "Are you the man who spoke to this woman?" And he said, "I am."

12 And Manoah said, "Now when your words come true, what is to be the child's manner of life, and what is his mission?" 13 And the angel (Malek-Messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD said to Manoah, "Of all that I said to the woman let her be careful. 14 She may not eat of anything that comes from the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, or eat any unclean thing. All that I commanded her let her observe."

15 Manoah said to the angel (Malek-messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD, "Please let us detain you and prepare a young goat for you." 16 And the angel (Malek) of (Yahweh) the LORD said to Manoah, "If you detain me, I will not eat of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, then offer it to (Yahweh) the LORD." (For Manoah did not know that he was the angel (Malek-messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD.

17 And Manoah said to the angel (Malek-messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD, "What is your name, so that, when your words come true, we may honor you?"

18 And the angel (Malek-messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD said to him, "Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful
?"

[Note: The word translated wonderful means - incomprehensible, extraordinary, as well as wonderful: vs 18 reads - "Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful (incomprehensible, extraordinary)?"

Question: who alone is incomprehensible?]


19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it on the rock to (Yahweh) the LORD, to the one who works wonders, and Manoah and his wife were watching. 20 And when the flame went up toward heaven from the altar, the angel (Malek-messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD went up in the flame of the altar. Now Manoah and his wife were watching, and they fell on their faces to the ground.

21 The angel (Malek-messenger) of (Yahweh) the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was the angel (Malek- messenger) of (Yahweh) {or better translated as - Malek Yahweh} - "Then Manoah knew that he was the Malek Yahweh."

22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, for we have seen God (Elohim Plural noun)."


Manoah and his wife saw God and not an angelic being. Then notice what Manoah's wife called the Malek Yahweh!

Judges 13:23, But his wife said to him, "If (Yahweh) the LORD had meant to kill us, he would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering at our hands, or shown us all these things, or now announced to us such things as these."

Notice that the Malek Yahweh appeared like a man and that John 1:4 states what? In Isaiah 9:6 what incomprehensible event would cause someone to be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace? What did the Malek of haElohim (Messenger of the Godhead) say about his name?

John 1:4, In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Isa 9:6, "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God (EL), Everlasting Father i.e. Author of eternity, Prince of Peace."

Now look at these bible passages where and how HaElohim is used:

Deut 4:35. To you it was shown, that you might know that (Yahweh) the LORD is God (haElohim -implying the Godhead Trinity); there is no other besides him.

Deut 4:39, know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the (Yahweh) LORD is God (haElohim) in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

Deut 7:9, Know therefore that Yahweh (the LORD) your Elohim (God - plural noun) is haElohim (God - plural noun implying The Godhead Trinity), the faithful El (God - singular noun - one God) who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations.

Gen 5:22, 24, "Enoch walked with God (haElohim) after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters 24 and Enoch walked with God (haElohim): and he was not; for God (Elohim) took him."

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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

#29

Post by Zebulon » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:12 am

Thanks again B.W. for bringing the possibility of the multiplicity/oneness of God. I have to admit it is complex and almost complicated.


The Little Boy
Image

Thanks for letting me borrow your image Cross.eyed

The little Boy comes to his parents bedroom and his mommy is lying on the bed, eyes closed and smiling. The little Boy feels her, she is well.

The little Boy : Mommy what are you doing?

Mommy : I am talking to God.

The little Boy : Does he answer you?

Mommy : Yes always.

The little Boy : Can I talk to God too?

Mommy : Yes, everybody can.

The little Boy : How do I do it?

Mommy : Well just like you and I are talking to each other. You can close your eyes, you can be walking, you can be anywhere in the world. Mommy like to do it when she is alone and quiet. But I do it here and there as well.

The little Boy : What do you tell him? Do you ask him things?

Mommy : I thank him for having given me the most wonserfull little boy in the world. I ask him to help you in every aspect of your life and to give me the strenght to be responsible in every aspect of our lives.

The little Boy : Ok

The next day the little boy sees daddy sitting at his desk, very seriously concentrated over a big book. The little boy comes beside his daddy and daddy picks him up on his knees so he can sit with him.

The little Boy : Daddy what are you doing?

Daddy : I am reading the story of God.

The little Boy : He has a big story. So big it have to be numbered everywhere.

Daddy : yes.

The little Boy : Daddy what are all the other books on your desk? Are these stories of God too?

Daddy : Not exactly. Lets say they are stories that explains the story of God contained in this book.

The little Boy : Ok.

The little boy runs to the kitchen where mommy is writing a grocery note.

The little Boy : Mommy, mommy!

Mommy : Yes dear.

The little Boy : Daddy thinks that God is in a big book with numbers and phrases and that there is some other books that explains how he should read the story of God to help him find God in that same book.

Mommy : I know dear.

The little Boy : But mommy God is inside of us and outside too!

Mommy : Yes dear. It is maybe because daddy is not sure yet. - Mommy kisses the little boy on the cheeks with love.

The little boy running back to his daddy : Daddy, daddy!

Daddy : Yes dear.

The little Boy : If you cant find God in you, look in me or in mommy!

Daddy : You are right.

Daddy picks up his little boy and walks slowly to his loving wife.

Daddy to mommy : I think it is time to have another baby.

The little Boy : See mommy? God is inside daddy too! I have asked God this morning for a little sister to play with...

Mommy to daddy : So did you find what you where looking for?

Daddy : Sort of.

Mommy : He will answer you, He always do.

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Re: The Old Testament Concept of God

#30

Post by Zebulon » Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:10 am

The little Boy (part 2)

The little Boy : Mommy?

Mommy : Yes dear.

The little Boy : Does God has a little boy too?

Mommy : Yes dear.

The little Boy : So then when he answers me, when I talk to Him and he listen, his little boy listen too and answer too?

Mommy : Yes dear.

The little Boy : So mommy, his Father is the father of everything, he makes my heart beat, his son (His little boy) is also everything since you told me that he is with his Daddy, and they are inside me answering-listening?


Mommy : Yes dear.

The little Boy moving away to some other places to play : One, two, three.

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