Truth vs. the lie

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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Byblos
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Re: Truth vs. the lie

#16

Post by Byblos » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:11 pm

IRQ Conflict wrote:
Byblos wrote:Personally I could really do without your sarcasm


In this case Byblos, I sincerely wish I didn't feel it was necessary, but I digress...
Like I said, knock yourself out; doesn't bother me in the least but it does shed some light on your style of conversing with others.
IRQ Conflict wrote:
could you please highlight for me the part in which you plainly read that Jill was female?
IRQ Conflict wrote:I will just be concentrating on the fact that the individual "Jack" fell and broke his crown
The fact that I wrote that Jacks companion was female was from the 1916 pictorial that I remember from when I was a child that renders Jill as a female coupled with the fact that the name Jill is associated with the female gender of that era leads me to a PLAIN conclusion of FACT. Regardless of context.
So you make two assumptions, one that Jill is female based on a picture you once saw, not from the text - quoted or otherwise, and a second based on associating the name Jill with a female. Full of assumptions but not such a plain reading after all, is it? And I'll be sure to tell my friend Jillian (aka Jill) that his name was once exclusively associated with females.
IRQ Conflict wrote: Please do me a favor for the sake of this thread and read what I say before posting silliness. Unless your here just to stir the pot.
I call it as I plainly see it, either engage or don't, that's up to you. What you won't do is drag me down with you into the mudslinging game. I do think that posters who've been here for a while though (including you) know me better than a pot stirrer but I'll let others be the judge of that (although I do whip up a mean chili).

Post edit (after I saw your last post accusing me of a straw man). You claimed to have a plain reading of the nursery rhyme Jack and Jill then you go on to make assumptions not found in the text. I call you on that and you accuse me of a straw man? I don't think so.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Truth vs. the lie

#17

Post by jenna » Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:14 pm

I have two friends, Kelly and Tracy. Boys or girls? :D
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Truth vs. the lie

#18

Post by JCSx2 » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:00 pm

I think the Jack and Jill thing is out of hand.

Lets get on to the original topic before Humpty Dumpy Has a great fall.

It can be a nice discussion if Jill can take a break.
Definition of a Veteran. A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including his life." That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

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Re: Truth vs. the lie

#19

Post by JCSx2 » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:10 pm

(although I do whip up a mean chili).



I like to make mine with Cut up Strip steak Smoked on the Grill and Pork Tenderloin also smoked on the grill. Kidney beans garbanzo beans and black beans.
Definition of a Veteran. A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including his life." That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

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Re: Truth vs. the lie

#20

Post by JCSx2 » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:18 pm

IRQ Conflict wrote:
JCSx2 wrote:I have to recant agreeing with you


Thats why I created this post. Some honest discourse. :D

We have to establish what it means to believe in Christ. It isn't just saying I believe, it's doing I believe. which of course part of the don't lie thingy.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What is the will of the Father? It is impossible to please God with out faith, and faith without works is dead. To believe in Christ means you better be doing what He commands us to do.

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.


I believe what you are pointing out should be taken as Good advice as what NOT to do, or try you very best not to do. I do not think it will curse us to hell without any hope at all.


This is correct. The idea is not to practice sin. Not that we can't make mistakes. :D


I do think that we must make an honest effort to live as Christ when we are born again. Does this mean we will actually achieve that? NO I think the effort with our gift of Grace is good though.

SO. Once a criminal is born again, they need to give up that life style of being a criminal and attempt to life as cleanly as possible.
Definition of a Veteran. A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including his life." That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

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Re: Truth vs. the lie

#21

Post by Byblos » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:32 am

JCSx2 wrote:Lets get on to the original topic ...
Good idea, lets. Here's a quote from the original post that, imo, pretty much sums up what the original topic is:
IRQ Conflict wrote:Where I'm obviously going with this is, is it ok to betray Gods trust in one area of the Bible save for His Grace on the cross?

Are we not breaking the first Great Commandment from Christ when He said: Love God with ALL your heart ALL of your mind and All of your soul? By disbelieving the portions of or speculating that a plain reading of the Bible 'can' 'could' mean something other than what is plainly read?
(emphasis mine).

Like Kurieuo said earlier, let's face it, this is about the creation account and about OECers being branded disbelievers of God's Word because they do not plainly read a 24-hour day in Genesis. If I've missed something IRQ or I've misrepresented the original topic in any way please feel free to correct me (and I will certainly owe you an apology). Once we define more clearly what this subject is all about then we can go on with the discussion.
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Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Truth vs. the lie

#22

Post by FFC » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:04 am

jenwat3 wrote:I have two friends, Kelly and Tracy. Boys or girls? :D
I think both are girls since your husband would frown on you having a boy friend. :lol: Do I win?

also you sound like such a nice person. Why do you only have two friends...or am I reading into your post? :lol:

I'm sure you know I am kidding. 8)
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And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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Re: Truth vs. the lie

#23

Post by jenna » Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:32 am

Actually I said they were FRIENDS, not boyfriends. I also know a guy named stacy and a girl named Randy. And be careful, FFC, you know what they say about payback! :twisted: :roll:
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Truth vs. the lie

#24

Post by FFC » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:31 pm

jenwat3 wrote:Actually I said they were FRIENDS, not boyfriends. I also know a guy named stacy and a girl named Randy. And be careful, FFC, you know what they say about payback! :twisted: :roll:
I was just asking an innocent question.... :o 8)
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Re: Truth vs. the lie

#25

Post by JCSx2 » Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:19 pm

Byblos wrote:
JCSx2 wrote:Lets get on to the original topic ...
Good idea, lets. Here's a quote from the original post that, imo, pretty much sums up what the original topic is:
IRQ Conflict wrote:Where I'm obviously going with this is, is it ok to betray Gods trust in one area of the Bible save for His Grace on the cross?

Are we not breaking the first Great Commandment from Christ when He said: Love God with ALL your heart ALL of your mind and All of your soul? By disbelieving the portions of or speculating that a plain reading of the Bible 'can' 'could' mean something other than what is plainly read?
(emphasis mine).

Like Kurieuo said earlier, let's face it, this is about the creation account and about OECers being branded disbelievers of God's Word because they do not plainly read a 24-hour day in Genesis. If I've missed something IRQ or I've misrepresented the original topic in any way please feel free to correct me (and I will certainly owe you an apology). Once we define more clearly what this subject is all about then we can go on with the discussion.
I was following this line of discussion:
JCSx2 wrote:
IRQ Conflict wrote:I don't have the time to respond right now. But would like to take the opportunity to thank those that actually took my post seriously.

JCSx2 I will address this as I believe that your honorable intentions of trying to protect your wifes feelings were, well, honorable. And I believe that as you grow and learn to trust God wholly and completely that you'll find those lies won't be as critical to your interactions as you once imagined.

That being said The Bible clearly states that those who make and practice lying will go to hell. No Ifs ands or buts about it.

There is no context in it that I'm aware of to get around that. God isn't as concerned about hurting our sensitivities where eternity is concerned.

Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


I have to recant agreeing with you

What about

John 5:24
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

2 Cornth 5:17
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Mark 16:16
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

John 3:36
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


Also,

If what you are saying trumps the way to everlasting life than that would mean NO ONE will ever get in to Heaven.

We are all damned to being destroyed. So that means the Bible is a big april fools joke.

No I cannot believe that, sure God dose not like Lies, but I also think that it will not be our undoing without hope.

I do not know you but I can make a safe assumption that you have done one of these

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (most likely the lying part)

Why do we have a New Life through Jesus Christ?

What you posted give us NO hope for everlasting life. We are human, we will Lie we will not live up to righteous expectation.

We are a hopeless bunch of creatures that will die an eternal death if we go with what you are pointing out. I cannot agree with that at all that would make Christianity a worthless hopeless religion.

What would be the meaning of Christianity with out New Life through Jesus Christ?

I believe what you are pointing out should be taken as Good advice as what NOT to do, or try you very best not to do. I do not think it will curse us to hell without any hope at all.

Peace

jim


EDIT:
After re reading you response, I think you are just playing the Devils advocate and not actually believing we are forever damned.

then this:

IRQ Conflict wrote:
JCSx2 wrote:I have to recant agreeing with you
Thats why I created this post. Some honest discourse. :D

We have to establish what it means to believe in Christ. It isn't just saying I believe, it's doing I believe. which of course part of the don't lie thingy.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What is the will of the Father? It is impossible to please God with out faith, and faith without works is dead. To believe in Christ means you better be doing what He commands us to do.

Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

I believe what you are pointing out should be taken as Good advice as what NOT to do, or try you very best not to do. I do not think it will curse us to hell without any hope at all.
This is correct. The idea is not to practice sin. Not that we can't make mistakes. :D

As for the creation being a literal 24 hour 7 day week, then I believe that may not be accurate. I believe that God is in a timeless dimension and our creation may have been longer in actual time such as thousands if not millions of years.

2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Is it an actual thousand years, for a day during the creation period? That can be up for debate, the Bible can mean 3 different things to 3 different people without actually changing the actual words written in it.

That is why we have so many different detonations of Christianity, because we are Human and only Human.

This is something I wrote in a different part of the forum and I feel it applies here in my response.
JCSx2 wrote:
adeepati wrote:which is the true religion. I am a SDA(Seventh Day Adventist), counted in the protestant group. we worship on Sabbath or Saturday, because the 4 commandment states that we should worship on Sabbath. which is the true religion, mine or other Christian religions.

I personally feel that the biggest downfall of Christians is that we argue amongst ourselves and fight amongst ourselves over nothing. (we feel it is something but in the scheme of things it is nothing)

We need forget our differences and concentrate on what makes us Christians and make that a priority. We are Family we will be together forever after this world.

The real church is the Church of Jesus Christ. Study the Bible, don't add stuff to it, don't confuse it with crazy made up stuff. We all are Christians that should be enough.

We have different denominations due to different Ideas and cultures, is this wrong? Not really, what I feel is wrong is one Christian Church pointing fingers at another Christian Church and saying YOU ARE WRONG!!

We should be Pointing fingers and say YOU ARE A FELLOW CHRISTIAN SEE YOU IN HEAVEN!!!!
Definition of a Veteran. A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including his life." That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.

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Re: Truth vs. the lie

#26

Post by jenna » Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:29 pm

Ok, I think we get the point now, JCS. :lol:
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Truth vs. the lie

#27

Post by B. W. » Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:33 pm

IRQ Conflict wrote:For the most part my experience on this board has been highly enlightening and educational. But there are some who I believe are willing to reject parts of the Word in light of personal view points.

I have had it posited to me that your salvation doesn't matter and or is not based on certain parts of the Truth as long as we believe that Christ is Lord and that the Father sent Him to die for us on the Cross.

I believe as Christ said that a house divided will fall and that being said I would like to put forth my view of Gods Word and why I believe the way I do and hope to have a good discussion on the matter and see where my view is right or wrong. You know see what happens when the smoke clears.

Here goes. :)

What is the Word of God? Jesus Christ am I right? If Jesus Christ is the Word of God and the Bible is that Word how can we say that we only need to believe part of what Jesus says and not the whole of it?...
This passage describes the problem you address

1 Corinthians 2:10-14, "...these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned..." ESV

Next…let us not forget what the word does…

Hebrews 4:12-13, “For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.”

Now go back too 1 Corinthians 2:12, “Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.”

Now there is the spirit of the world and the Holy Spirit. What we can learn from this is that there are people who will read the world's ways into the bible text and think it is God's way and also we have the promise of how to discern what is correct.

The word of God does what? It pierces /cuts to the division of soul and of spirit, down to the joints and marrow, and discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart exposing to the eyes of him [God] to whom we must give account.

Now let's apply what is being said here and look at some basic doctrines. What doctrine lines up with the worlds way and God's way? Take Works verses Grace…

What is the Worlds way on this matter? What is God's way? Which is true?

Next let us look at something more complex: Hell's recompense — What is the world's view on this matter? How does one twist the world view to teach that Hell is not immediately after death for sinners, or it is soul sleep, or it is fiery destruction of nothingness, or even that Hell is not real at all - based either on a world view that God is so loving that he just cannot punish sinners, nor could ever make a place of recompense that last forever, or even that God does not exist because they just can't believe that God could do such a thing?

What does God say on this matter? See for example Luke 16:19-31 [Rich man and Lazarus] and how some people will use the world view to prove this but a mere story of a philosophical nature, or teach it never really happened and thus not an accurate portrayal of the afterlife for sinners, with the result of reducing Christ's words to fit their own point of view of no eternal recompense beginning after death and lasting forever.

That is the nature of the world — it will misuse bible scripture, neglect truths it clearly teaches, to justify world's position or rely on personal bias or deny God totally.

What does the Bible say on this matter? Well, look what Ezekiel 32 reveals as it concerns the true Old Testament view on Hell — God's perspective and not the world's…

Ezekiel 32:21-31, "The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: 'They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.' 22 "Assyria is there, and all her company, its graves all around it, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, 23 whose graves are set in the uttermost parts of the pit; and her company is all around her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who spread terror in the land of the living...."

32:31,"When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD."


Notice that 'Pharaoh sees them' Pharaoh is alive in hell and not asleep waiting to wake up to judgment — the Lake of fire of Revelations is where this place will be tossed into and all the people, the mighty chiefs there, and demons are all very much alive as they can see and experience what this text declares — after all — thus saith the Lord!. The rest of the bible regarding Hell begins to fall in place with God's perspective on the matter.

Those so inclined to the world's way to soften Hell to their point of view will spend enormous amount of bible twisting and quotes from select scholars to prove the worlds point of view. The word of God however exposes the thoughts and intents of the human heart whom we all must give account…

1 Corinthians 2:12-14, "... 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned..."

In this short lesson what is the Spirit of God teaching you? What is God's word removing? Are we to walk as the world does or by the Spirit?

[All Bible quotes from the ESV]
-
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Re: Truth vs. the lie

#28

Post by jenna » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:07 pm

Ok, B.W. Stop and think for a minute. Read this quote carefully. John 3:16 states "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have ever-lasting life". Is this truly a statement about hell everlasting? Just think about it. This verse plainly states "should not perish but have ever-lasting life". Clearly this is not talking about an everlasting hell, because if it were, then the person in hell would still have "everlasting life"! But it plainly says they SHOULD NOT PERISH. Further, on the subject of whether the soul can die, read Matthew 10:28. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to KILL the soul, but rather fear Him which IS ABLE to destroy both soul and body in hell." According to this verse, souls can be destroyed. Also, notice Psalm 146:4. "His spirit departs, he returns to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish". Also, Ecc. 9:5. "for the living know they shall die, but the dead know NOTHING". Clearly there is no hell where the dead are tormented forever. To further examine what hell REALLY is, read Revelation 20:10. "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone.." This is not an "everlasting hell" as many are led to believe.This is a localized lake of fire that long precedes the ULTIMATE lake of fire to engulf the whole earth 1,100 years LATER, before the new heavens and new earth arrive. (Rev. 20:14, 15, 21:8, 21:1)
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Truth vs. the lie

#29

Post by B. W. » Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:12 am

jenwat3 wrote:Ok, B.W. Stop and think for a minute. Read this quote carefully. John 3:16 states "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have ever-lasting life". Is this truly a statement about hell everlasting? Just think about it. This verse plainly states "should not perish but have ever-lasting life". Clearly this is not talking about an everlasting hell, because if it were, then the person in hell would still have "everlasting life"! But it plainly says they SHOULD NOT PERISH. Further, on the subject of whether the soul can die, read Matthew 10:28. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to KILL the soul, but rather fear Him which IS ABLE to destroy both soul and body in hell." According to this verse, souls can be destroyed. Also, notice Psalm 146:4. "His spirit departs, he returns to his earth, in that very day his thoughts perish". Also, Ecc. 9:5. "for the living know they shall die, but the dead know NOTHING". Clearly there is no hell where the dead are tormented forever. To further examine what hell REALLY is, read Revelation 20:10. "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone.." This is not an "everlasting hell" as many are led to believe.This is a localized lake of fire that long precedes the ULTIMATE lake of fire to engulf the whole earth 1,100 years LATER, before the new heavens and new earth arrive. (Rev. 20:14, 15, 21:8, 21:1)
Hi jenwat3 - please stop for a moment,

I gave two very different examples of two very basic doctrines and the rest is up to the reader to learn from as an example of what 1 Corinthians 2 teaches.

First example, saved by God's Grace or our human works? I did not elaborate on this at all so please do not confuse it with the next statement. From 'works verses grace' you can go on and explore the riches of John 3:14-21 on your own.

Also next, your points about hell and destroying do not line up with what God says but rather what the world says and interprets destroy…destruction.

You also forgot to mention the context of next verse from Ecc 9:6 which explains what Ecc 9:5 really means: Ecc 9:5 says, “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten," and next verse explains clearly what this above quoted verse really means by them knowing nothing:

Ecc 9:6, “Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun: Which explains what is forgotten and why no memory on earth will remain of such persons mentioned as they have no more share in anything done under the sun — in other words they do not come back to this planet — this mortal life under the sun they'll no nothing about any more.

I do not want to sound rude but go to a graveyard and read these verses out loud and you may get a better understanding of what these verses mean and note which graves have the most flowers compared with those that do not…

You also forgot Ecc 3:11, “He [God] has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.”

Then in Ecc 3:14 it states: “I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.”

What image and likeness was humanity made? Wow — whatever God does endures forever lines up with verse 14 thus defining verse 14 as, God putting eternity into man's heart. You cannot escape this nor twist it to mean something else. God placed eternity in men and women because what he does endures or last forever as we are in whose image and likeness made?

Note what Ecc 3:17-19 says, “ I said in my heart [Note where God places eternity which endures forever], God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work. 18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts." None Righteous - no not one: remember who said that?

God test to see who are his children and who are beast — does not these very scriptures say this? Note the writer mentions the righteous and the wicked and both shall die. Now look at verse 19: “For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.”

If all is vanity —then what of Christ Statement in John 3:15-16? Does John 3:15-16 line up with this next passage? How does one become righteous?

Ecc 3:20, “All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return”

This simply means the body is laid to rest after death and is buried in the ground returning to dust [very plain meaning] so now the next question made - makes more sense in light of context of verses 11 and 14:

Ecc 3:21-22, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? 22, “So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?”

Only God knows who will go upward to him and who, like the beast [the wicked] will go down to the earth [Sheol].

I like the last sentence of Ecc 3:Who can bring him to see what will be after him?”

John 3:14-15 answers this, “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." Which reveal who can bring him [you and I] to see what will be after him [Jesus]. Jesus said I go prepare a place for you in John 14.

As for Psalms 146:4, “When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.” Again please do not take scriptures out of context by proof texting meaning to it

Here is the context: Psalms 146:3, “Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.” In other words — why should I trust the people of the world — there is no salvation in them. Whose breath departs? Vv 4, “When his [princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation] breath departs, he [princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation] returns to the earthIn Ecc 3 who returns to the earth? The beast — the wicked to sheol, the grave the pit. It is sad so many simply do not understand biblical symbolism

Now back to Ezekiel 32: and the verse I quoted prior — Pharaoh saw , The mighty ones were speaking in Hell, Sheol, the pit. Yes, their dead physical bodies rot and return to the dust yet their hearts — spirit - lives on fully conscious as it is written: Ecc 3:11, 14, “He [God] has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man's heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.”…14 “I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.”

Again: Ecc 3:17-19 says, “I said in my heart [Note where God places eternity which endures forever], God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work. 18 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts.”

Ecc 3:21-22, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? 22, “So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?”

Which direction do you want to head?

You cannot escape the eternal truth the God reveals and speaks in Ezekiel 32 — Hell is real and for now is known by several names such as Sheol, the pit, etc, which are all apt descriptions. You also forgot what is to be tossed into the lake of fire: Revelation 20:13 - Hades gave up the dead who were in it. Gee whiz - you still don't get it do you?

The ways of the world does what ever it can to deny Hell and recompense — twist scriptures and deny what Jesus teaches on this subject too. You are giving example of this very thing I wrote earlier about! Now, Blasting someone off into nonexistence may seem the right course for you and the world to wish for as it negates responsibility.

Who would honestly give a hot-digity-dog if they get blasted off into nonexistence? — you wouldn't feel it or care so live like the devil have fun eat and drink up for tomorrow we die! Eternal recompense is real no matter how distasteful it is to the world's ways.

Gal 6:7-8, “Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.”

Hell is real and it is there for a purpose which would sound foreign to you — why? Hell demonstrates God's Love. This you cannot grasp.

Ecc 3:21-22, “Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth? 22, “So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?”
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
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jenna
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Re: Truth vs. the lie

#30

Post by jenna » Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:03 am

First of all, I do not appreciate the manner of your reply. You state that I am taking and "proofing" context, or twisting it. Different bibles read different words. Get over it. Second you are talking to me like I am a child who knows nothing about the "truth" as you see it. Does this board not allow one to express their point of view without people attacking common sense? And you need to brush up on your Greek. The word Hades im Greek means "the grave, or pit". Hell is the tomb. In saying this, all people do, in fact, go to "hell" at death! All people go to the GRAVE. And why do you keep repeating the same verse of Ecc. 3:21-22 over and over? Do you not have anything else? Read Ecc. 9:5,10. "For the living know that they shall die, but the dead know nothing". "Whatsoever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge nor wisdom in the grave where you go." The dead plainly know NOTHING. This verse connects to 1 Peter 4:6; "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the Spirit". Since the dead know nothing, those who were dead in this verse had received the gospel while they were alive. Rev. 20:10. "and the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night". This verse doesn't state that the beast and false prophet are tormented in the lake of fire forever. This lake of fire is the same one in Rev. 19:20, which indicates that the beast and false prophet were cast alive into A lake of fire and brimstone. The phrase in Rev. 20:10 "where the beast and the false prophet ARE," is misleading. As indicated by the italics in the KJV, translators erroneously added the term "are". It should read "where they WERE CAST." And in response to your over-quoted Ecc. 3:21-22, maybe you should start in verse 19. "For that which befalls the sons of men befalls beasts, even one thing befalls them: as the one dies, so dies the other, yes, they have all one breath, so that man has no preeminence above a beast, for all is vanity. ALL go to one olace, ALL are of the dust, and ALL turn to dust again." In other words, we all will die, and we canot place ourselves above beasts and thinking we are special and that there is a "special" place for us. Now consider Psalm 115:17. "The dead PRAISE NOT the Lord, neither any that go down into silence". Death involves silence. This certainly does not square with the concept of millions of the dead wailing and screaming in agony. Such a scene could never be described as "silence". And if many of the dead go to heaven, why are they not praising God? Psalm 6:5 further explains that the dead do not have conscious memory. "For in death there is no remembrance of you; in the grave who shall give you thanks?" Could anyone seriously suggest that the dead, suffering in hell, could experience the normal range of human memories but not remember God? Would God put people in hell and then leave them there suffering, with no memory of how they had gotten there and who had put them there? And since none shall give Him thanks, what about all the Christians who died, why would they not be thanking Him? Because there is no ever-lasting hell! All the dead will be judged after resurrection. Jesus said "Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming in which ALL that are in the graves shall hear His voice and shall come forth; for they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (Greek-Judgement). Christ understood that many would find this astonishing. That is why He told His disciples "marvel not at this". He understood that most people would marvel at the thought that everyone who has ever lived is now in the grave, awaiting the resurrection. Notice He said ALL are in the grave, not just SOME. In reading this, I hope you realize that I am not "twisting" verses or "proofreading" context. EVERYTHING I have said has come straight from my bible. And I never said or even implied that we should "live like the devil, for tomorrow we die!" You seriously need to think about how you word your responses.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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