going to hell?

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Re: going to hell?

#61

Post by FFC » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:37 am

jenwat3 wrote:The verse says "And no man has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven". John 3:13. So in other words, "but He that came down from heaven" means Jesus. So does this not mean that no one has seen heaven EXCEPT Jesus?
Not necessarily. It just means that Jesus was the first, and at that time the only one to do it. Jesus prepared the way for us on the cross, by making us perfect and sinless, so that now we also can enter into heaven.
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Re: going to hell?

#62

Post by jenna » Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:43 am

Ok, that would make sense except for one thing. The verse about David is found in Acts 2:29. This was AFTER Jesus had already died. So would David not have gone to heaven then?
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: going to hell?

#63

Post by Cross.eyed » Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:53 am

jenwat3 wrote:
Seraph wrote:People go to Heaven and Hell AFTER the ressurection. The ressurection brings the dead back to life so they can go to their final destinations.
So we dont go to one place immediately upon death? Thats what I always understood.
Yes we do. Our souls go to heaven and await judgement for our rewards.
Other souls are in sheole awaiting their judgment.

I'm trying to tread lightly here as I am very non-denominational-I love them all-and don't mean to step on anyone's doctrine, its the only message I get (soul in heaven) from the Bible.
I am the wretch the song refers to.

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Re: going to hell?

#64

Post by jenna » Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:54 am

So if our souls go to heaven then why does it say that they die? :econfused:
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: going to hell?

#65

Post by Canuckster1127 » Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:42 am

jenwat3 wrote:So if our souls go to heaven then why does it say that they die? :econfused:
Because physically we die. Death for the believer is not an ending. It is a transition.
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Re: going to hell?

#66

Post by B. W. » Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:43 am

In order to answer Pierac further — I need to go back a quote two of the early Church Fathers and prove that these people did not teach 'soul sleep' nor were teaching Plato's philosophy. This again is long post and mostly direct quotes. Jen you may find the quote from “Tertullian's , Treatise on the Soul, Chap. IX.- Particulars of the Alleged Communication to a Montanist Sister,' rather amusing. So let me begin by quoting from Irenaeus again and please note the highlighted sections:

Quote -- Irenaeus, Against Heresy - Chap. XXXIV. — Souls Can Be Recognized in the Separate State, and Are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.

“4. But as the animal body is certainly not itself the soul, yet has fellowship with the soul as long as God pleases; so the soul herself is not life, but partakes in that life bestowed upon her by God. Wherefore also the prophetic word declares of the first-formed man, “He became a living soul,” (Gen_2:7) teaching us that by the participation of life the soul became alive; so that the soul, and the life which it possesses, must be understood as being separate existences. When God therefore bestows life and perpetual duration, it comes to pass that even souls which did not previously exist should henceforth endure [for ever], since God has both willed that they should exist, and should continue in existence. For the will of God ought to govern and rule in all things, while all other things give way to Him, are in subjection, and devoted to His service. Thus far, then, let me speak concerning the creation and the continued duration of the soul.” …End Quote…

++Note that Irenaeus said that the soul has fellowship with the body as long as God so pleases and each has separate existences. Also that: 'God therefore bestows life and perpetual duration, it comes to pass that even souls which did not previously exist should henceforth endure [for ever], since God has both willed that they should exist.'

++The phrases Irenaeus uses here is an example of what meant when I stated in last post that the early Church fathers used phrases which state that the 'soul last as long as God so wills.' How long does God 'Will' for the soul to last? Answer is eternal — everlasting as the early church fathers understood the words of Jesus spoken in Matthew 25:46 to be true.

++Now let's look at Tertullian's writings entitled, Treatise on the Soul. I picked out several chapters and you can locate Tertullian's writings on the internet for more comprehensive reading. This is long and if you want to skip to the last chapter “Chap. LVIII. — Conclusion. Points Postponed. All Souls Are Kept in Hades Until the Resurrection, Anticipating Their Ultimate Misery or Bliss,” Just scroll down past the other two chapter quotes here and read what Tertullain believed about the soul
.

Quote -- “Tertullian, Treatise on the Soul, Chap. VII. - The Soul's Corporeality Demonstrated out of the Gospels.

"So far as the philosophers are concerned, we have said enough. As for our own teachers, indeed, our reference to them is ex abundanti - a surplusage of authority: in the Gospel itself they will be found to have the clearest evidence for the corporeal nature of the soul. In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. (Luk_16:23-24) Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence. But what is that which is removed to Hades after the separation of the body; which is there detained; which is reserved until the day of judgment; to which Christ also, on dying, descended? I imagine it is the souls of the patriarchs. But wherefore (all this), if the soul is nothing in its subterranean abode? For nothing it certainly is, if it is not a bodily substance. For whatever is incorporeal is incapable of being kept and guarded in any way; it is also exempt from either punishment or refreshment. That must be a body, by which punishment and refreshment can be experienced. Of this I shall treat more fully in a more fitting place. Therefore, whatever amount of punishment or refreshment the soul tastes in Hades, in its prison or lodging, in the fire or in Abraham's bosom, it gives proof thereby of its own corporeality. For an incorporeal thing suffers nothing, not having that which makes it capable of suffering; else, if it has such capacity, it must be a bodily substance. For in as far as every corporeal thing is capable of suffering, in so far is that which is capable of suffering also corporeal

Tertullian, Treatise on the Soul, Chap. IX. - Particulars of the Alleged Communication to a Montanist Sister.

“When we aver that the soul has a body of a quality and kind peculiar to itself, in this special condition of it we shall be already supplied with a decision respecting all the other accidents of its corporeity; how that they belong to it, because we have shown it to be a body, but that even they have a quality peculiar to themselves, proportioned to the special nature of the body (to which they belong); or else, if any accidents (of a body) are remarkable in this instance for their absence, then this, too, results from the peculiarity of the condition of the soul's corporeity, from which are absent sundry qualities which are present to all other corporeal beings. And yet, notwithstanding all this, we shall not be at all inconsistent if we declare that the more usual characteristics of a body, such as invariably accrue to the corporeal condition, belong also to the soul - such as form and limitation; and that triad of dimensions - I mean length, and breadth and height - by which philosophers gauge al bodies. What now remains but for us to give the soul a figure? Plato refuses to do this, as if it endangered the soul's immortality. For everything which has figure is, according to him, compound, and composed of parts; whereas the soul is immortal; and being immortal, it is therefore indissoluble; and being indissoluble, it is figureless: for if, on the contrary, it had figure, it would be of a composite and structural formation. He, however, in some other manner frames for the soul an effigy of intellectual forms, beautiful for its just symmetry and tuitions of philosophy, but misshapen by some contrary qualities. As for ourselves, indeed, we inscribe on the soul the lineaments of corporeity, not simply from the assurance which reasoning has taught us of its corporeal nature, but also from the firm conviction which divine grace impresses on us by revelation. For, seeing that we acknowledge spiritual charismata, or gifts, we too have merited the attainment of the prophetic gift, although coming after John (the Baptist). We have now amongst us a sister whose lot it has been to be favoured with sundry gifts of revelation, which she experiences in the Spirit by ecstatic vision amidst the sacred rites of the Lord's day in the church: she converses with angels, and sometimes even with the Lord; she both sees and hears mysterious communications; some men's hearts she understands, and to them who are in need she distributes remedies. Whether it be in the reading of Scriptures, or in the chanting of psalms, or in the preaching of sermons, or in the offering up of prayers, in all these religious services matter and opportunity are afforded to her of seeing visions. It may possibly have happened to us, whilst this sister of ours was rapt in the Spirit, that we had discoursed in some ineffable way about the soul. After the people are dismissed at the conclusion of the sacred services, she is in the regular habit of reporting to us whatever things she may have seen in vision (for all her communications are examined with the most scrupulous care, in order that their truth may be probed). “Amongst other things,” says she, “there has been shown to me a soul in bodily shape, and a spirit has been in the habit of appearing to me; not, however, a void and empty illusion, but such as would offer itself to be even grasped by the hand, soft and transparent and of an etherial colour, and in form resembling that of a human being in every respect.” This was her vision, and for her witness there was God; and the apostle most assuredly foretold that there were to be “spiritual gifts” in the church. (1Co_12:1-11) Now, can you refuse to believe this, even if indubitable evidence on every point is forthcoming for your conviction? Since, then, the soul is a corporeal substance, no doubt it possesses qualities such as those which we have just mentioned, amongst them the property of colour, which is inherent in every bodily substance. Now what colour would you attribute to the soul but an etherial transparent one? Not that its substance is actually the ether or air (although this was the opinion of Aenesidemus and Anaximenes, and I suppose of Heraclitus also, as some say of him), nor transparent light (although Heraclides of Pontus held it to be so). “Thunder-stones,” indeed, are not of igneous substance, because they shine with ruddy redness; nor are beryls composed of aqueous matter, because they are of a pure wavy whiteness. How many things also besides these are there which their colour would associate in the same class, but which nature keeps widely apart! Since, however, everything which is very attenuated and transparent bears a strong resemblance to the air, such would be the case with the soul, since in its material nature it is wind and breath, (or spirit); whence it is that the belief of its corporeal quality is endangered, in consequence of the extreme tenuity and subtilty of its essence. Likewise, as regards the figure of the human soul from your own conception, you can well imagine that it is none other than the human form; indeed, none other than the shape of that body which each individual soul animates and moves about. This we may at once be induced to admit from contemplating man's original formation. For only carefully consider, after God hath breathed upon the face of man the breath of life, and man had consequently become a living soul, surely that breath must have passed through the face at once into the interior structure, and have spread itself throughout all the spaces of the body; and as soon as by the divine inspiration it had become condensed, it must have impressed itself on each internal feature, which the condensation had filled in, and so have been, as it were, congealed in shape, (or stereotyped). Hence, by this densifying process, there arose a fixing of the soul's corporeity; and by the impression its figure was formed and moulded. This is the inner man, different from the outer, but yet one in the twofold condition. It, too, has eyes and ears of its own, by means of which Paul must have heard and seen the Lord; (2Co_12:2-4) it has, moreover all the other members of the body by the help of which it effects all processes of thinking and all activity in dreams. Thus it happens that the rich man in hell has a tongue and poor (Lazarus) a finger and Abraham a bosom. (Luk_16:23-24) By these features also the souls of the martyrs under the altar are distinguished and known. The soul indeed which in the beginning was associated with Adam's body, which grew with its growth and was moulded after its form proved to be the germ both of the entire substance (of the human soul) and of that (part of) creation.

Tertullian, Treatise on the Soul, Chap. LVIII. — Conclusion. Points Postponed. All Souls Are Kept in Hades Until the Resurrection, Anticipating Their Ultimate Misery or Bliss

All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? (It is true, whether) you say yes or no: moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich. And now, having postponed some stray questions for this part of my work, I will notice them in this suitable place, and then come to a close. Why, then, cannot you suppose that the soul undergoes punishment and consolation in Hades in the interval, while it awaits its alternative of judgment, in a certain anticipation either of gloom or of glory? You reply: Because in the judgment of God its matter ought to be sure and safe, nor should there be any inkling beforehand of the award of His sentence; and also because (the soul) ought to be covered first by its vestment of the restored flesh, which, as the partner of its actions, should be also a sharer in its recompense. What, then, is to take place in that interval? Shall we sleep? But souls do not sleep even when men are alive: it is indeed the business of bodies to sleep, to which also belongs death itself, no less than its mirror and counterfeit sleep. Or will you have it, that nothing is there done whither the whole human race is attracted, and whither all man's expectation is postponed for safe keeping? Do you think this state is a foretaste of judgment, or its actual commencement? a premature encroachment on it, or the first course in its full ministration? Now really, would it not be the highest possible injustice, even in Hades, if all were to be still well with the guilty even there, and not well with the righteous even yet? What, would you have hope be still more confused after death? would you have it mock us still more with uncertain expectation? or shall it now become a review of past life, and an arranging of judgment, with the inevitable feeling of a trembling fear? But, again, must the soul always tarry for the body, in order to experience sorrow or joy? Is it not sufficient, even of itself, to suffer both one and the other of these sensations? How often, without any pain to the body, is the soul alone tortured by ill-temper, and anger, and fatigue, and very often unconsciously, even to itself? How often, too, on the other hand, amidst bodily suffering, does the soul seek out for itself some furtive joy, and withdraw for the moment from the body's importunate society? I am mistaken if the soul is not in the habit, indeed, solitary and alone, of rejoicing and glorifying over the very tortures of the body. Look for instance, at the soul of Mutius Scoevola as he melts his right hand over the fire; look also at Zeno's, as the torments of Dionysius pass over it. (compare The Apology, last chapter.) The bites of wild beasts are a glory to young heroes, as on Cyrus were the scars of the bear. Full well, then, does the soul even in Hades know how to joy and to sorrow even without the body; since when in the flesh it feels pain when it likes, though the body is unhurt; and when it likes it feels joy though the body is in pain. Now if such sensations occur at its will during life, how much rather may they not happen after death by the judicial appointment of God! Moreover, the soul executes not all its operations with the ministration of the flesh; for the judgment of God pursues even simple cogitations and the merest volitions. “Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” (Mat_5:28) Therefore, even for this cause it is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. Nay more, even in matters done through the flesh the soul is the first to conceive them, the first to arrange them, the first to authorize them, the first to precipitate them into acts. And even if it is sometimes unwilling to act, it is still the first to treat the object which it means to effect by help of the body. In no case, indeed, can an accomplished fact be prior to the mental conception thereof. It is therefore quite in keeping with this order of things, that that part of our nature should be the first to have the recompense and reward to which they are due on account of its priority. In short, inasmuch as we understand “the prison” pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades, (Mat 5:25) and as we also interpret “the uttermost farthing” (Mat_5:26) to mean the very smallest offence which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection, no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline, without prejudice to the full process of the resurrection, when the recompense will be administered through the flesh besides. This point the Paraclete has also pressed home on our attention in most frequent admonitions, whenever any of us has admitted the force of His words from a knowledge of His promised spiritual disclosures. And now at last having, as I believe, encountered every human opinion concerning the soul, and tried its character by the teaching of (our holy faith,) we have satisfied the curiosity which is simply a reasonable and necessary one. As for that which is extravagant and idle, there will evermore be as great a defect in its information, as there has been exaggeration and self-will in its researches.” …End Quote…

++Here is a summery of Tertullian's view on the soul: the soul is separate from the body and can be termed as spirit too. The soul of each human being had a beginning and its beginning was determined by God. God's will is that the soul/spirit endure forever as he willed these to be. After death the corporeal soul/spirit waits in Hades either in punishment or in heavenly paradise bliss for the final judgment and rejoining to one's body during a future time known as the 'Resurrection of the Dead' where the final sentence is commuted. Just as the bible plainly teaches.

++There you have it --Tertullian did not teach soul sleep and also spoke against Plato's idea's
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Re: going to hell?

#67

Post by Cross.eyed » Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:34 am

Canuckster1127 wrote:
jenwat3 wrote:So if our souls go to heaven then why does it say that they die? :econfused:
Because physically we die. Death for the believer is not an ending. It is a transition.
Bingo! :clap: :clap: :clap:
I am the wretch the song refers to.

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Re: going to hell?

#68

Post by FFC » Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:08 pm

jenwat3 wrote:Ok, that would make sense except for one thing. The verse about David is found in Acts 2:29. This was AFTER Jesus had already died. So would David not have gone to heaven then?
Keep in mind that Peter was quoting from Psalm 16, I believe. Does that make any difference in your thinking? Either way one of the points of the passage is to show Christs superiority over David. Not to say that David was still in the grave.
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Re: going to hell?

#69

Post by jenna » Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:28 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:
jenwat3 wrote:So if our souls go to heaven then why does it say that they die? :econfused:
Because physically we die. Death for the believer is not an ending. It is a transition.
Physically we die? Then why does it say that SOULS die? Is there not a difference between souls and the flesh?
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: going to hell?

#70

Post by Jac3510 » Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:47 am

As a poit of interest, I'm not sure where--nor do I have the time this second to look up--the verse is you are talking about with reference to the soul dying. That said, I believe you are talking OT, and if that is the case, let me poit out that the word for soul, nephesh, is often the same thing as the person themselves. For instance, you'll see God say, "My soul is grieved" or something like that. This isn'tt o say that God has a soul. It was a very, very, very common way of just saying "I."

The NT preserves this usages. So, for instance, Peter says that eight "souls" were saved in the flood. Different word (different language), but same underlying thought process. The point is that I suspect (consider it an educated guess) that the "soul" dying is just a reference to the person's physical death. It says nothing of their afterlife whatsoever.
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And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: going to hell?

#71

Post by jenna » Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:57 am

Once again, very good point. :ewink: It definitely gives me something to think about!
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: going to hell?

#72

Post by Pierac » Tue Jan 01, 2008 4:42 pm

FFC wrote:
...I have a question then, is heaven eternal? Because the same word is used for both heaven and hell.
We have no knowledge about heaven being eternal, as we clearly know the first heaven and earth will pass away. Nothing is said if the new heaven will be ever lasting. It is more of a gray area.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

Since the first earth is still here I would have to assume so is the first heaven.

Look, I have very little scientific back ground in physics and quantum mechanics sciences.

But the word used to denote eternity can not be associated with time. Aion is clearly associated with time.

Any thing that is eternal can not have a beginning. It's simple people


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Re: going to hell?

#73

Post by Pierac » Tue Jan 01, 2008 6:54 pm

Hi B. W. ,

Sorry to hear about your lost. Such a hard thing to live through! I know because I see it all the time.
Have you witnessed death? Have you spoken with hospice workers, nurses who have? Those who have report feeling, sensing, or even seeing the spiritual parts of a person, some may call soul or spirit, depart? Yes, you feel it once the last breath is taken. Too many witnesses who have seen the dying depart to ignore their testimony.
Yes I have B.W. I have witnessed hundreds of deaths, and many times they were holding my hand. You see B.W. I am an R.N. I have been one for over 20 years. Most of which I worked in the ICU. I have seen death from my early 20's into my early 40's and it's far from over for me. It's never pretty like in the movies but it's also not spiritual either. It's rather humiliating. (I won't go into the details) I have cleaned many dead bodies before the family arrives to view it. It's clear to me life does not leave, it's taken away. People fight for that life! They fight for the breath of life which belongs to God and God alone! They are far from being immortal

Now switching topics.


B.W. wrote:
I stated this before and it may have confused several of you when I wrote of two different judgments. So let me clarify this again: Hebrews 9:27 states plainly immediately after death comes judgment. This determines where one will reside in the afterlife. The second judgment involves both the resurrection of judgment and the resurrection of life. The second please note, involves Resurrection. To be resurrected means both body and the spiritual will be rejoined and this is known as the resurrection of the body. This is the final judgment which in essence means — final commuting of a sentence previously passed.
You see you have a big problem with the resurrection and the immortality of the soul. If people go directly to Jesus at death they don't have a body? And you say no, they have to wait for a body at the final resurrection which means both body and spiritual will be rejoined. Then how can the rich man ask for water for his tongue if he is waiting for his tongue to be resurrected? Paul taught us we will not be found naked! That is with out a body!

B.W. wrote:
I gave those, who hold to the doctrines of soul sleep, a tremendous amount of scripture that proves that the afterlife begins the second after we die. The varied doctrines of soul sleep are mere opinions of men disguised as bible.

I stated this before and it may have confused several of you when I wrote of two different judgments. So let me clarify this again: Hebrews 9:27 states plainly immediately after death comes judgment. This determines where one will reside in the afterlife. The second judgment involves both the resurrection of judgment and the resurrection of life. The second please note, involves Resurrection. To be resurrected means both body and the spiritual will be rejoined and this is known as the resurrection of the body. This is the final judgment which in essence means — final commuting of a sentence previously passed.
Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Let me explain it to you this way. Inasmuch as it it appointed for men to sleep and after this comes morning.
You will have no concept of the lapse of time between death and judgment. Why? Because your dead!


B.W. wrote:
Why do those of you that believe in any of the varied 'soul sleep' doctrines fail to note that the spiritual part of human beings continue after death just as Hebrews 9:27 states and Paul alludes too in Philippians1:23 as well as elsewhere.
First of all Paul never alludes to anything! He speaks boldly!

2Ti 2:18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
Paul already dealt with your understanding of the resurrection!

Now let's get back to that “soul sleep.” What saith the scriptures?

Job 14:12 So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.
Until the heavens are no longer. That would be the first heaven (see my last post.)


Psa 13:3 Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death

Dan 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Is this like an 8 hour sleep? I think not!

John 11:11 This He said, and after that He *said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep."
Joh 11:13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
Just like you B.W.
John 11:14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,
So what does Jesus say about this kind of sleep? Oops Jesus said this kind of sleep = DEAD!

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
Seems Paul thought most would sleep

Act 7:58 When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. Act 7:59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" Act 7:60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
I don't know as I have never been stoned. However, I don't think it would make me Sleeply.


Jenwat3 wrote:
Yes, I actually have seen people pass away. I am a nurse who works in a hospice
Small world sister!


Paul

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frankbaginski
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Re: going to hell?

#74

Post by frankbaginski » Tue Jan 01, 2008 8:49 pm

Pierac , Jenwat3,

Bless you for the work you do. I have been protected most of my live and view this as a mixed blessing. In one sense I have been allowed to learn without dramatic emotional events. In another I have been shielded from what life seems to offer to most of the world. I have asked God many times why this is so. I know I have a path that I am to go down but I don't know what that path is. I do know that I am to do massive research and see connections on diverse subjects. It is all very confusing but I am happy knowing I am finally on the path. The direction of the path is unknown but I am happy with each day I open my eyes.

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jenna
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Re: going to hell?

#75

Post by jenna » Tue Jan 01, 2008 9:13 pm

Thank you Frank. It is good to know at least SOMEONE appreciates SOME things I do. :ewink:
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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