going to hell?

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
PaulSacramento
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Re: going to hell?

#316

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:13 pm

:shakehead: It went against my internal sense of right and wrong, good and evil...and that my friend was the road that lead me out of Christianity.
What "internal sense" of "right and wrong" is that?

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Re: going to hell?

#317

Post by Butterfly » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:35 pm

Rob wrote:
Butterfly wrote: Don't you see how that statement reveals the nature of the Biblegod? How can a god who's called "love" purposely create a place of everlasting torment just because someone doesn't believe in him? It can be likened to a parent who sends their child to prison to be tortured for life, just because the child doesn't believe in them.
The "Biblegod's" nature is revealed through Christ's sacrifice for us. It's a good thing he came down and was brought to our level. He experienced fear, pain, and humiliation so that we could be with him. He doesn't make us be with Him, he offers us a way to get to Him freely- not by works.
It looks like a "choose me, or else" to you simply because you choose to look at it that way. Your glass is half empty.

"We are the recipients of a love letter written in blood on a wooden cross that was erected in Judea some 2,000 years ago."
- Chuck Missler

There is a huge glaring difference between what the Bible says Christ did for us, and what it says our choices are. If you choose to believe in the validity of what the Bible says then you know that everything Christ did was ordained by God...meaning it was God's choice to create a plan exactly the way he wanted to. On the other hand we as humans had no choice in being created in the manner we are, no choice in where we were born, or to which parents we are born to. We are put in a situation of having to decide which religion, and god is true, based on ancient sacred texts that are written by primitive men...if we make the wrong choice based on our human ignorance, the Biblegod has prepared a special place called Hell where we will be sent to be tortured forever. Sounds pretty imbalanced and unfair to me. :twisted:

Every step of the way the Biblegod had a choice to create and plan things exactly the way he did, and more often than not he chose violence, even in the death of his son. Why was that?

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Re: going to hell?

#318

Post by Butterfly » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:50 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
:shakehead: It went against my internal sense of right and wrong, good and evil...and that my friend was the road that lead me out of Christianity.
What "internal sense" of "right and wrong" is that?
It is the innate intuitive sense that we all have, if we let our self love be reflected onto the actions of others. When I read something in the Bible that seems wrong, it is because I am measuring it against my own self love standard and how I would want to be treated. It's all quite simple if I allow my own self love to be reflected in the way I treat others. This principle holds true whether or not there is a god because it is based on self love.

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Danieltwotwenty
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Re: going to hell?

#319

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:26 pm

Butterfly wrote:Every step of the way the Biblegod had a choice to create and plan things exactly the way he did, and more often than not he chose violence, even in the death of his son. Why was that?

Because he had to suffer just like us, it is the only thing we truly understand.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: going to hell?

#320

Post by Butterfly » Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:18 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Butterfly wrote:Every step of the way the Biblegod had a choice to create and plan things exactly the way he did, and more often than not he chose violence, even in the death of his son. Why was that?

Because he had to suffer just like us, it is the only thing we truly understand.
You mean to say the way the Biblegod created humans was so that they only understand violence? Is that why every form of punishment he chose was violent? Starting with the mass killing in the Flood story, to the violent wars causing mass destruction in Revelation, all we seem to read about in Scripture is the violent slaughter of humans. Even Hell in the afterlife is violent!
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Re: going to hell?

#321

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:13 pm

Butterfly wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Butterfly wrote:Every step of the way the Biblegod had a choice to create and plan things exactly the way he did, and more often than not he chose violence, even in the death of his son. Why was that?

Because he had to suffer just like us, it is the only thing we truly understand.
You mean to say the way the Biblegod created humans was so that they only understand violence? Is that why every form of punishment he chose was violent? Starting with the mass killing in the Flood story, to the violent wars causing mass destruction in Revelation, all we seem to read about in Scripture is the violent slaughter of humans. Even Hell in the afterlife is violent!
-
y@};-
err no that is not what I was saying, Man suffers by his own volition because of our free will to choose God or choose ourselves.

Because we rebelled and wanted to do it our own way, we became depraved and beyond repair, so God wiped the slate clean.

God cannot kill, he just takes back what is already his, only humans are capable of killing because we do not own the life.

Hell is suffering because of being eternally separated from God, it is by the persons own choice that he has been separated and any suffering is by his own doing.

You have been told these things before, why do you persist with the same rhetoric.

Dan
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: going to hell?

#322

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:19 pm

It seems you are hell bent on breaking your own GR by putting words in my mouth which I never even said. :shakehead:


Dan
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: going to hell?

#323

Post by Butterfly » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:37 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Butterfly wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
Butterfly wrote:Every step of the way the Biblegod had a choice to create and plan things exactly the way he did, and more often than not he chose violence, even in the death of his son. Why was that?

Because he had to suffer just like us, it is the only thing we truly understand.
You mean to say the way the Biblegod created humans was so that they only understand violence? Is that why every form of punishment he chose was violent? Starting with the mass killing in the Flood story, to the violent wars causing mass destruction in Revelation, all we seem to read about in Scripture is the violent slaughter of humans. Even Hell in the afterlife is violent!
-
y@};-
err no that is not what I was saying, Man suffers by his own volition because of our free will to choose God or choose ourselves.

Because we rebelled and wanted to do it our own way, we became depraved and beyond repair, so God wiped the slate clean.

God cannot kill, he just takes back what is already his, only humans are capable of killing because we do not own the life.
I take it you mean God cannot murder...killing just means to take a life and we know the Biblegod does that all the time.
Danieltwotwenty wrote:Hell is suffering because of being eternally separated from God, it is by the persons own choice that he has been separated and any suffering is by his own doing.

You have been told these things before, why do you persist with the same rhetoric.

Dan
I gather your idea of Hell is just separation from God? The Bible does say that God created Hell as a place of punishment...

Matt. 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

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Re: going to hell?

#324

Post by Butterfly » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:43 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:It seems you are hell bent on breaking your own GR by putting words in my mouth which I never even said. :shakehead:


Dan
I didn't know I had exclusive rights to the Golden Rule... :pound: And what words did I put in your mouth? y:-/

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Re: going to hell?

#325

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:47 pm

Danieltwotwenty wrote:It seems you are hell bent on breaking your own GR by putting words in my mouth which I never even said. :shakehead:

Dan
There really is no point in discussing with Butterfly. The unsaved are incapable of understanding Scripture:

-The Lord gives understanding, Dt 29:2,3,4,5,6.
-The lost find Scripture offensive, Jer 6:10.
-The lost are condemned to ignorance, Mt 13:12,13.

In continuing the discussion with her you are helping her to heap up wrath against herself. It's like giving an alcoholic more and more booze and then being surprised that she doesn't stop drinking.

FL :cheers:
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: going to hell?

#326

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:38 pm

Yea it is pointless, but I just feel so sad to see people on a path to destruction. :crying:

I take the bait so easily, even when I know all you get is mocking and thinly veiled hatred back at you.


Dan
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: going to hell?

#327

Post by Zionist » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:00 am

Romans 1:18-32

notice verses 21-23 especially. "...For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or gave Him thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise they became fools. and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and of four footed animals and crawling creatures..."

i suggest you read this portion of scripture butterfly i really do...may the LORD soften your heart.
Our rightousness is of filthy rags and in the eyes of God all have gone astray and nobody is justified under the Law. We are saved by the Grace of God through our faith in Him and in Him who he has sent Jesus Christ alone. There is no other way.

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Re: going to hell?

#328

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:01 am

Danieltwotwenty wrote:I take the bait so easily, even when I know all you get is mocking and thinly veiled hatred back at you.
When I was an atheist, I just looooved to bait those silly Christians! They were like so many hungry fishies in a fish tank!

But you are not alone: as a Christian I've often taken the bait myself.

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

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Re: going to hell?

#329

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:53 am

Butterfly wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
:shakehead: It went against my internal sense of right and wrong, good and evil...and that my friend was the road that lead me out of Christianity.
What "internal sense" of "right and wrong" is that?
It is the innate intuitive sense that we all have, if we let our self love be reflected onto the actions of others. When I read something in the Bible that seems wrong, it is because I am measuring it against my own self love standard and how I would want to be treated. It's all quite simple if I allow my own self love to be reflected in the way I treat others. This principle holds true whether or not there is a god because it is based on self love.

-
y@};-
So your sense of "right and wrong" is base don your perception of "self love"?
Don't you find that a bit "ego centric" ?

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Re: going to hell?

#330

Post by Butterfly » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:02 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Butterfly wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
:shakehead: It went against my internal sense of right and wrong, good and evil...and that my friend was the road that lead me out of Christianity.
What "internal sense" of "right and wrong" is that?
It is the innate intuitive sense that we all have, if we let our self love be reflected onto the actions of others. When I read something in the Bible that seems wrong, it is because I am measuring it against my own self love standard and how I would want to be treated. It's all quite simple if I allow my own self love to be reflected in the way I treat others. This principle holds true whether or not there is a god because it is based on self love.

-
y@};-
So your sense of "right and wrong" is base don your perception of "self love"?
Don't you find that a bit "ego centric" ?
Quite the opposite! Self-love is far from being "ego centric", though many people take it as being selfish or self centered. To fully be able to love another I must fully love myself, and in loving myself I innately know what is right and wrong.

Below is a quote from the well know psychologist Eric Fromm on self-love.
The Art of Loving by Erich Fromm (1956)

Before we start the discussion of the psychological aspect of selfishness and self-love, the logical fallacy in the notion that love for others and love for oneself are mutually ex*clusive should be stressed. If it is a virtue to love my neigh*bor as a human being, it must be a virtue---and not a vice---to love myself since I am a human being too. There is no conccpt of man in which I myself am not included. A doctrine which proclaims such an exclusion provcs itself to be intrinsically contradictory. The idea expressed in the Biblical “Love thy neighbor as thyself!” implies that respect for one’s own integrity and uniqueness, love for and under*standing of one’s own self, can not be separated from re*spect for and love and understanding of another individual. The love for my own self is inseparably connected wfth the love for any other self.
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