going to hell?

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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Re: going to hell?

#31

Post by FFC » Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:38 pm

jenwat3 wrote:And to Pierac. I think you have said it all, on the subject of "hell". I also believe that the dead stay dead until the resurrection. I also do not believe that "hellfire" is eternal, nor that sinners will burn forever in the lake of fire.
...I have a question then, is heaven eternal? Because the same word is used for both heaven and hell.
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Re: going to hell?

#32

Post by jenna » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:10 pm

Exactly what word is that? :econfused:
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: going to hell?

#33

Post by FFC » Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:42 am

jenwat3 wrote:Exactly what word is that? :econfused:
Eternal :esurprised:
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Re: going to hell?

#34

Post by jenna » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:06 am

Yes, eternal punishment and eternal reward. Ok. Notice the word eternal punishment. That simply means that the punishment itself will last FOREVER, but it does not say that the people being punished will be eternal. Look in Jude v.7. Here, it is talking about Sodom and Gomorrah suffering the "vengeance of eternal fire". Does this mean that this fire is still burning today? No, of course not. As stated in another post, it simply means that the punishment itself is eternal. No archaeologist today knows exactly where it is, since it was so completely destroyed. So the 'punishMENT' is still in effect.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: going to hell?

#35

Post by FFC » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:50 am

jenwat3 wrote:Yes, eternal punishment and eternal reward. Ok. Notice the word eternal punishment. That simply means that the punishment itself will last FOREVER, but it does not say that the people being punished will be eternal. Look in Jude v.7. Here, it is talking about Sodom and Gomorrah suffering the "vengeance of eternal fire". Does this mean that this fire is still burning today? No, of course not. As stated in another post, it simply means that the punishment itself is eternal. No archaeologist today knows exactly where it is, since it was so completely destroyed. So the 'punishMENT' is still in effect.
Thank you. I know more and more Christians who are taking this view from the scriptures. I'm not there yet but I can understand how you come by it and appreciate your point of view!
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Re: going to hell?

#36

Post by B. W. » Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:39 pm

jenwat3 wrote:Yes, eternal punishment and eternal reward. Ok. Notice the word eternal punishment. That simply means that the punishment itself will last FOREVER, but it does not say that the people being punished will be eternal. Look in Jude v.7. Here, it is talking about Sodom and Gomorrah suffering the "vengeance of eternal fire". Does this mean that this fire is still burning today? No, of course not. As stated in another post, it simply means that the punishment itself is eternal. No archaeologist today knows exactly where it is, since it was so completely destroyed. So the 'punishMENT' is still in effect.
Mat 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

How can punishment last forever if none are left to punish? That is a contradiction. You cannot punish nothingness - you punish something.

If what you say is true then eternal life likewise cannot be everlasting since everlasting can no longer mean eternal.

In Jude 7 Sodom is exhibited as an example in others mentioned within the letters context undergoing the punishment of eternal fires. Jenwat3 Please stay within context and please stop twisting the scriptures to suite your bias. You are extremely incorrect in your interpretation of Jude 7.

Jude 1:7, “just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. 8 Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and blaspheme the glorious ones…” ESV
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Re: going to hell?

#37

Post by jenna » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:11 am

Ok, first of all, you need to stop telling me I am twisting the scriptures. If you are going to be throwing insults around you do not even need to bother responding to these posts. If you would take the time to fully read and study these verses with an open mind, which clearly you do NOT, then maybe you might get a clearer picture here. How can I be "twisting scripture" when everything I post comes straight out of my bible, word for word. You need to seriously sit back and think about your responses before you attack me for saying the TRUTH. Maybe you could actually take the time and address previous posts of mine before you decide to attack me on something new. :soap:
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: going to hell?

#38

Post by Byblos » Fri Dec 14, 2007 7:50 am

jenwat3 wrote:You need to seriously sit back and think about your responses before you attack me for saying the TRUTH.
Jen, how is this different from B.W. saying you're twisting scripture? Doesn't this imply that what he's saying is NOT the TRUTH?

I think a little humility is in order, from all sides.

Byblos,
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Re: going to hell?

#39

Post by jenna » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:20 am

Yes you're right Byblos. Sorry to both you and BW for that. :oops: I guess what I should have said was don't try to get me to see YOUR truth by demeaning and putting down MY truth.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: going to hell?

#40

Post by FFC » Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:21 pm

jenwat3 wrote:Yes you're right Byblos. Sorry to both you and BW for that. :oops: I guess what I should have said was don't try to get me to see YOUR truth by demeaning and putting down MY truth.
Don't let BW get to you, sweetie. :shakehead: I don't think he means to attack you. I think he is just so set in his own beliefs that he is afraid to concede that there may be some truth in your views. That can be scary to us who have always felt secure in what we believe. I can see that what you are saying could very well be true. I have a good christian friend here at work who believes the same.

Be patient and calm. Take a deep breath...and then laugh at pettiness of it all.

See ya around
:wave:
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And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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Re: going to hell?

#41

Post by jenna » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:54 pm

Thank you, FFC, and :amen: !
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: going to hell?

#42

Post by B. W. » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:03 pm

+
Pierac you have butchered this chapter of Irenaeus which calls you entire post in question. I will point it out and comment on it on next frame:
Pierac wrote:Here are the words of Irenaeus of the mid-second century (Against Heresies, Bk. 5):

"Some who are reckoned among the orthodox go beyond the prearranged plan for the exaltation of the just, and are ignorant of the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incorruption. They thus entertain heretical opinions. For the heretics, not admitting the salvation of their flesh, affirm that immediately upon their death they shall pass above the heavens. Those persons, therefore, who reject a resurrection affecting the whole man,[Pierac -a whole section you conveniently edited out here and spliced to connect with twisting the meaning...] and do their best to remove it from the Christian scheme, ,[Pierac -a whole section you conveniently edited out here and spliced to connect with twisting the meaning...]know nothing as to the plan of resurrection. For they do not choose to understand that, if these things are as they say, the Lord Himself, in Whom they profess to believe, did not rise again on the third day, but immediately upon his expiring departed on high, leaving His body in the earth. But the facts are that for three days, He dwelt in the place where the dead were, as Jonas remained three days and three nights in the whale's belly (Matt. 12:40) . . . David says, when prophesying of Him: 'Thou hast delivered my soul from the nethermost hell (grave).' And on rising the third day, He said to Mary, 'Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father' (John 20:17). . . . ,[Pierac -a sections you have conveniently edited but at least you placed the three periods...] How then must not these men be put to confusion, who allege . . . ,[Pierac -a whole section you conveniently edited out here and spliced to connect with twisting the meaning but at least you placed the three periods… to show you did]
that their inner man [soul], ,[Pierac - section edited out] leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place? For as the Lord 'went away in the midst of the shadow of death' (Ps. 86: 23), where the souls of the dead were, and afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up into heaven, it is obvious that the souls of His disciples also . . . [Very important Part edited out but at least you placed the three periods…to show this]shall go away into the invisible place . . . [Very important Part edited out but at least you placed the three periods…to show this] and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event. Then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, bodily, just as the Lord rose, they shall come thus into the presence of God. [Very important Part Scripture quote edited out nothing to show you did this] As our Master did not at once take flight to heaven, but awaited the time of His resurrection . . . , [Edited section but at least you placed the three periods…to show this] so we ought also to await the time of our resurrection. [Very important Part edited]

[Note the section below taken from the first paragraph of Book 5 Chapter 32 — and out of context again from what Irenaeus actually wrote and taught]
Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain orthodox persons are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God's dispensations, of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the earthly KINGDOM which is the beginning of incorruption; by means of this KINGDOM those who shall be worthy are accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature."
Since you did this with Irenaeus who can we trust what you say in the rest of your discourse? You changed the entire meaning of his work — just to agree with you!

Adversus Haereses, Book V, Chapter 31
Pierac wrote:Justin is here refuting the arguments of Gnosticism which denied the resurrection of the flesh. Traditional Christianity has taken a similar, but slightly different tack by including in the creed a belief in the resurrection of the body, while also teaching an immediate salvation of the soul alone in a conscious disembodied state. This is said to be the real person, albeit disembodied. Such an idea is flatly contradicted by Justin and Irenaeus and is identified by them as pagan.

Modern scholars realize that the view of death which has prevailed (and is now promoted in church constantly) is not biblical . Far from it, it is, amazingly, actually "pagan" and "Gnostic." In a standard text of Christian Dogmatics we read:

The fundamental confusion about life after death which has so permeated traditional Christianity is brilliantly described by Dr. Paul Althaus in his book, The Theology of Martin Luther (Fortress Press, 1966, pp. 413, 414):

"The hope of the early church centered on the resurrection of the Last Day. It is this which first calls the dead into eternal life (I Cor. 15; Phil 3:21). This resurrection happens to the man and not only to the body. Paul speaks of the resurrection not 'of the body' but 'of the dead.' This understanding of the resurrection implicitly understands death as also affecting the whole man.... Thus the original Biblical concepts have been replaced by ideas from Hellenistic, Gnostic dualism.

That difference may be witnessed in contemporary preaching at funerals which, though claiming the Bible as its source, reflects a pagan Platonism which both the New Testament and the early Church Fathers rejected. Hope this helps,
Pierac this is blatantly untrue and are you being that intellectually dishonest here?
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Re: going to hell?

#43

Post by B. W. » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:11 pm

See Frame Above:

Pierac, Are you that intellectually dishonest our just desperately seeking anything any one says to back up your pre-supposition?

If you are really being intellectually dishonest here then you proved beyond all doubt that you will go to any length and to any extreme to support such an untenable position of 'soul sleep' by using Irenaeus to support that the early church did not teach life in the hereafter immediately after a person dies but basically believed and taught that they believed in Soul Sleep / Annihilation doctrines that you do. Also you pick and choose and edit to fit a scheme only those agree with your pre-suppositions. You butchered Irenaeus book note to mention Justin!

In your post, you appeared to have deliberately misquoted Irenaeus in a vain attempt to discredit the very Orthodox Christian doctrines Irenaeus himself defended, as well Justin. Your claim is now proved spurious. Doubt me? Read what Irenaeus really believed, Irenaeus most certainly does not support your position nor does he validate your postulations! No need to go over any of your other quotes or source as proving this one error proves error. Note Context and how much you left out Adversus Haereses, Book V, Chapter 31 and note underlined parts and reference links:

Adversus Haereses, Book V, Chapter 31 —- in context --

“The preservation of our bodies is confirmed by the resurrection and ascension of Christ: the souls of the saints during the intermediate period are in a state of expectation of that time when they shall receive their perfect and consummated glory.

“1. Since, again, some who are reckoned among the orthodox go beyond the pre-arranged plan for the exaltation of the just, and are ignorant of the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incorruption, they thus entertain heretical opinions. For the heretics, despising the handiwork of God, and not admitting the salvation of their flesh, while they also treat the promise of God contemptuously, and pass beyond God altogether in the sentiments they form, affirm that immediately upon their death they shall pass above the heavens and the Demiurge, and go to the Mother (Achamoth) or to that Father whom they have feigned. Those persons, therefore, who disallow a resurrection affecting the whole man (universam reprobant resurrectionem), and as far as in them lies remove it from the midst [of the Christian scheme], how can they be wondered at, if again they know nothing as to the plan of the resurrection? For they do not choose to understand, that if these things are as they say, the Lord Himself, in whom they profess to believe, did not rise again upon the third day; but immediately upon His expiring on the cross, undoubtedly departed on high, leaving His body to the earth. But the case was, that for three days He dwelt in the place where the dead were, as the prophet says concerning Him: "And the Lord remembered His dead saints who slept formerly in the land of sepulture; and He descended to them, to rescue and save them." And the Lord Himself says, "As Jonas remained three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth." Matthew 11:40 Then also the apostle says, "But when He ascended, what is it but that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth?" Ephesians 4:9 This, too, David says when prophesying of Him, "And you have delivered my soul from the nethermost hell;" and on His rising again the third day, He said to Mary, who was the first to see and to worship Him, "Touch Me not, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to the disciples, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and unto your Father." John 20:17

“2. If, then, the Lord observed the law of the dead, that He might become the first-begotten from the dead, and tarried until the third day "in the lower parts of the earth; " Ephesians 4:9 then afterwards rising in the flesh, so that He even showed the print of the nails to His disciples, He thus ascended to the Father;—[if all these things occurred, I say], how must these men not be put to confusion, who allege that "the lower parts" refer to this world of ours, but that their inner man, leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place? For as the Lord "went away in the midst of the shadow of death," where the souls of the dead were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven], it is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God. "For no disciple is above the Master, but every one that is perfect shall be as his Master." Luke 6:40 As our Master, therefore, did not at once depart, taking flight [to heaven], but awaited the time of His resurrection prescribed by the Father, which had been also shown forth through Jonas, and rising again after three days was taken up [to heaven]; so ought we also to await the time of our resurrection prescribed by God and foretold by the prophets, and so, rising, be taken up, as many as the Lord shall account worthy of this [privilege].”

Irenaeus taught what all Orthodox Christianity teaches that that there is a Resurrection of the Body at the time of the end as well as that when a person dies before this event they depart to another realm and it is not soul sleep. Note Adversus Haereses, Book II, Chapter 34 below:

Adversus Haereses (Book II, Chapter 34)

“Souls can be recognized in the separate state, and are immortal although they once had a beginning.

“1. The Lord has taught with very great fullness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased, —in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states Luke 16:19, etc. that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him—[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognized, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class [of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.

“2. But if any persons at this point maintain that those soul, which only began a little while ago to exist, cannot endure for any length of time; but that they must, on the one hand, either be unborn, in order that they may be immortal, or if they have had a beginning in the way of generation, that they should die with the body itself—let them learn that God alone, who is Lord of all, is without beginning and without end, being truly and for ever the same, and always remaining the same unchangeable Being. But all things which proceed from Him, whatsoever have been made, and are made, do indeed receive their own beginning of generation, and on this account are inferior to Him who formed them, inasmuch as they are not unbegotten. Nevertheless they endure, and extend their existence into a long series of ages in accordance with the will of God their Creator; so that He grants them that they should be thus formed at the beginning, and that they should so exist afterwards.”

See section 3 from above link to same chapter. I left it out to conserve space. In last part of section three He states “shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever” Taken in context of what Irenaeus actually writes in book this cite does not mean that the unsaved days are number to cease to exist or that the soul ceases to exist, because he links it to the final judgment when both body and soul are thrown into hell for everlasting punishment in his other writings of this very book!

“4. But as the animal body is certainly not itself the soul, yet has fellowship with the soul as long as God pleases; so the soul herself is not life, but partakes in that life bestowed upon her by God. Wherefore also the prophetic word declares of the first-formed man, "He became a living soul," Genesis 2:7 teaching us that by the participation of life the soul became alive; so that the soul, and the life which it possesses, must be understood as being separate existences. When God therefore bestows life and perpetual duration, it comes to pass that even souls which did not previously exist should henceforth endure [forever], since God has both willed that they should exist, and should continue in existence. For the will of God ought to govern and rule in all things, while all other things give way to Him, are in subjection, and devoted to His service. Thus far, then, let me speak concerning the creation and the continued duration of the soul.”

Pierac — Irenaeus teaches against Platonism's doctrine that souls existed forever before creation, that these self existent souls are seeking a body to live in, and after that body dies travel to another body in a form of reincarnation. Mormonism's doctrine on the soul fits more with Plato than Orthodox Christianity! You cannot say that this proves platonic influence had over Orthodox Christianity thus making it corrupt! How dare you insinuate that Irenaeus or Justin teaches your doctorial form of soul sleep — Irenaeus most certainly does not! If alive today he would label you a heretic!

In Summery this is what Irenaeus taught and what Orthodox Christianity believes [and I am quoting from his own words here in part]:

He taught basic Orthodox Christian Doctrine… that Souls can be recognized in the separate state, and are immortal although they once had a beginning. God therefore bestows life and perpetual duration, it comes to pass that even souls which did not previously exist should henceforth endure [forever], since God has both willed that they should exist, and should continue in existence. Irenaeus taught the creation and the continued duration of the soul…

He taught… that the Bible plainly declares that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognized, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class [of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment…

Irenaeus taught that… Christians, Christ disciples, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose…


Beyond all reasonable doubt how can we trust in your assertions and intellectual honesty as well as your doctrine? How dare you use early church fathers such as Irenaeus who taught and believed in the Trinity and upheld early Christian beliefs in the afterlife and resurrection of the body as a proof text for your cause when you do not even believe as he?? Read:

Adversus Haereses, Book IV, Chapter 39

“Man is endowed with the faculty of distinguishing good and evil; so that, without compulsion, he has the power, by his own will and choice, to perform God's commandments, by doing which he avoids the evils prepared for the rebellious.

“4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.”
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Re: going to hell?

#44

Post by Pierac » Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:47 pm

Hi B.W.,
Adversus Haereses, Book V, Chapter 31 —- in context --

“The preservation of our bodies is confirmed by the resurrection and ascension of Christ: the souls of the saints during the intermediate period are in a state of expectation of that time when they shall receive their perfect and consummated glory.

“1. Since, again, some who are reckoned among the orthodox go beyond the pre-arranged plan for the exaltation of the just, and are ignorant of the methods by which they are disciplined beforehand for incorruption, they thus entertain heretical opinions. For the heretics, despising the handiwork of God, and not admitting the salvation of their flesh, while they also treat the promise of God contemptuously, and pass beyond God altogether in the sentiments they form, affirm that immediately upon their death they shall pass above the heavens and the Demiurge, and go to the Mother (Achamoth) or to that Father whom they have feigned. Those persons, therefore, who disallow a resurrection affecting the whole man (universam reprobant resurrectionem), and as far as in them lies remove it from the midst [of the Christian scheme], how can they be wondered at, if again they know nothing as to the plan of the resurrection? For they do not choose to understand, that if these things are as they say, the Lord Himself, in whom they profess to believe, did not rise again upon the third day; but immediately upon His expiring on the cross, undoubtedly departed on high, leaving His body to the earth. But the case was, that for three days He dwelt in the place where the dead were, as the prophet says concerning Him: "And the Lord remembered His dead saints who slept formerly in the land of sepulture; and He descended to them, to rescue and save them." And the Lord Himself says, "As Jonas remained three days and three nights in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth." Matthew 11:40 Then also the apostle says, "But when He ascended, what is it but that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth?" Ephesians 4:9 This, too, David says when prophesying of Him, "And you have delivered my soul from the nethermost hell;" and on His rising again the third day, He said to Mary, who was the first to see and to worship Him, "Touch Me not, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to the disciples, and say unto them, I ascend unto My Father, and unto your Father." John 20:17

“2. If, then, the Lord observed the law of the dead, that He might become the first-begotten from the dead, and tarried until the third day "in the lower parts of the earth; " Ephesians 4:9 then afterwards rising in the flesh, so that He even showed the print of the nails to His disciples, He thus ascended to the Father;—[if all these things occurred, I say], how must these men not be put to confusion, who allege that "the lower parts" refer to this world of ours, but that their inner man, leaving the body here, ascends into the super-celestial place? For as the Lord "went away in the midst of the shadow of death," where the souls of the dead were, yet afterwards arose in the body, and after the resurrection was taken up [into heaven], it is manifest that the souls of His disciples also, upon whose account the Lord underwent these things, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose, they shall come thus into the presence of God. "For no disciple is above the Master, but every one that is perfect shall be as his Master." Luke 6:40 As our Master, therefore, did not at once depart, taking flight [to heaven], but awaited the time of His resurrection prescribed by the Father, which had been also shown forth through Jonas, and rising again after three days was taken up [to heaven]; so ought we also to await the time of our resurrection prescribed by God and foretold by the prophets, and so, rising, be taken up, as many as the Lord shall account worthy of this [privilege].”

Irenaeus taught what all Orthodox Christianity teaches that that there is a Resurrection of the Body at the time of the end as well as that when a person dies before this event they depart to another realm and it is not soul sleep. Note Adversus Haereses, Book II, Chapter 34 below:


Seems to me he did not believe they will go immediately to heaven at death, but wait for the resurrection. Then receiving their bodies at that time. Irenaeus is talking about a future event, he is well aware of what Paul taught about the resurrection.

2Ti 2:18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
He taught… that the Bible plainly declares that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognized, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class [of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment…

Irenaeus taught that… Christians, Christ disciples, shall go away into the invisible place allotted to them by God, and there remain until the resurrection, awaiting that event; then receiving their bodies, and rising in their entirety, that is bodily, just as the Lord arose…
I never said that he did not believe in the immortality of the soul. I said he did not believe the soul went directly to heaven at death. As you clearly quoted in your post and I highlighted in red. They must wait for the resurrection!

Now please allow me to correct you using scripture. You believe that the human soul is immortal like Irenaeus. Yet, what saith the scriptures…

1Ti 6:16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

B.W. that would be God the Father whom no man has seen.

Psa 78:50 He leveled a path for His anger; He did not spare their soul from death, But gave over their life to the plague,

Psa 116:8 For You have rescued my soul from death, My eyes from tears, My feet from stumbling.

Eze 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

All souls die, and stay dead until the resurrection.
B.W. Maybe only Old Testament souls were not immortal?

Psa 13:3 Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

(Act 7:60) And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Look's like the writer of Act thought death was like a sleep too.

B.W. could you please post the scriptures that tell of man containing an immortal soul? I really am open to be corrected. That will help you settle the issue. I have already shown you several scriptures that prove the soul is not immortal. If the soul is not immortal then it goes nowhere at death.

Psa 146:4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.


Peace,
Paul

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Re: going to hell?

#45

Post by Jac3510 » Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:57 pm

Jen,

To answer the original question, may I suggest that:

1. Hell (Sheol/Hades) is a temporary place of the dead. No one will spend eternity there. Today, when an unrighteous person dies, they immediately go there to await the Great White Throne Judgment;

2. The GWTJ comes at the end of the Millennial Reign (see Rev 20:11ff), at which time, the unrighteous are resurrected and cast into the Lake of Fire (Gehenna).

3. Today, when a born again believer dies, he immediately goes to be with Jesus in paradise (which is now in Heaven), where he waits to be resurrected at the beginning of the Millennial Reign. The order of the Resurrection of the Righteous is: 1) Christ, 2) OT Saints, 3) Those dead "in Christ"; 4) those living at the time of the Rapture (or Second Coming, depending on your school of thought).

In all cases, both heaven and hell are temporary places that the dead wait until their respective resurrections. The righteous dead will be resurrected to live eternally with Christ on the New Earth. The unrighteous dead will be resurrected to be cast into the Lake of Fire. And, for the record, I believe that those who will suffer in the Lake of Fire will do so forever.

God bless
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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