going to hell?

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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Re: going to hell?

#256

Post by B. W. » Thu Jul 01, 2010 7:36 am

CeT-To wrote:thanx B.W. !! you 're a champ! :wave: :D
This quote from Matthew Mcgee sums up the basics very well regarding this sunbject:
Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) are the temporary place of torment for the souls of the wicked dead. Prior to Christ's resurrection, saints were kept and comforted in the now vacant half of Hades, known as Abraham's Bosom. Gehenna (Greek, but from a Hebrew name) is the Lake of Fire for the permanent place of torment of the souls of the wicked dead in their resurrected bodies. Hell is a rather general and inadequate term that is often used to refer to either Gehenna or the torment side of Hades, both by those who know the basic difference between these two specific places and by those who do not.
Matthew McGee goes through all the words used regarding hell, Lake of Fire, Paradise, etc. even the one we did not fully address in this thread.
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Re: going to hell?

#257

Post by CeT-To » Thu Jul 01, 2010 9:25 pm

i also wanted to ask - has paradise been moved to heaven from sheol OR have the people been moved from paradise to heaven leaving paradise-sheol vacant?
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

I Praise you Yahweh, my Lord, my God!!!!!

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Re: going to hell?

#258

Post by Kristoffer » Fri Jul 02, 2010 1:31 pm

Going to a penal colony on Jupiter for the rest of your life?

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Re: going to hell?

#259

Post by CeT-To » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:17 pm

Kristoffer wrote:Going to a penal colony on Jupiter for the rest of your life?
huh? watch you talkin about willis? 8-}2
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

I Praise you Yahweh, my Lord, my God!!!!!

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Re: going to hell?

#260

Post by B. W. » Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:18 pm

CeT-To wrote:i also wanted to ask - has paradise been moved to heaven from sheol OR have the people been moved from paradise to heaven leaving paradise-sheol vacant?
According to Eph 4:8 — He led those in Paradise into Heaven to be with him where he is. According to Orthodox doctrine — Paradise remains.

Now, is it still vacant or still in use is debatable as there is no clear scripture to reveal to us either way. I have my own personal opinion on this matter that it is still in use for reasons only known and designed by God. I have no scripture to back up my own personal reasoning opinion — so that part is only my opinion and nothing more. Others say it remains vacant, but I think no one really knows, other than the Lord!
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Re: going to hell?

#261

Post by CeT-To » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:15 am

:O!!!! B.W. you have just sparked an idea in my head ! this is just my opinion BUUUT wouldnt it be probable that Elijah is there since he was taken away by God..im thinking of the 2 prophets in revelation except im not sure if the second one is either Moses or Enoch. i think the 2 prophets in revelation could BE in paradise right now! LOL just a thought tho... haha
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

I Praise you Yahweh, my Lord, my God!!!!!

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Re: going to hell?

#262

Post by Kristoffer » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:39 am

CeT-To wrote:
Kristoffer wrote:Going to a penal colony on Jupiter for the rest of your life?
huh? watch you talkin about willis? 8-}2
I'm talking about a really absurd place, there are no penal colonies on Jupiter.*



(also noone gets tortured FOREVER)*

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Re: going to hell?

#263

Post by CeT-To » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:06 am

Kristoffer wrote:
CeT-To wrote:
Kristoffer wrote:Going to a penal colony on Jupiter for the rest of your life?
huh? watch you talkin about willis? 8-}2
I'm talking about a really absurd place, there are no penal colonies on Jupiter.*



(also noone gets tortured FOREVER)*
Just making sure but why are you posting here if you dont even attempt to try and learning anything? i mean all you do is express your opinion of denile...i mean yeah we get it you are athiest...don't you have anything better to do?
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

I Praise you Yahweh, my Lord, my God!!!!!

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Re: going to hell?

#264

Post by Kristoffer » Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:17 am

I find it rather insulting to be told I will be tortured forever. So I deserve that and christians don't?

I'll be the judge of weither i am learning something or not. :crying:

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Re: going to hell?

#265

Post by CeT-To » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:54 am

LOL fair enough about the learning, but it seems by your comments that you are just trying to annoy people sometimes.

I know you find it offensive but you do know what type of forum this is :mrgreen:
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

I Praise you Yahweh, my Lord, my God!!!!!

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Re: going to hell?

#266

Post by B. W. » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:07 pm

Kristoffer wrote:I find it rather insulting to be told I will be tortured forever. So I deserve that and christians don't?

I'll be the judge of weither i am learning something or not. :crying:
First off - eternal recompense is one thing and torture is another. Eternal recompense proves what is what is realy inside a person - exposing it. It appears you do not understand the difference so I suggest you read every post on this thread first...

Then ask questions...
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Old Polish Proverb:
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Re: going to hell?

#267

Post by Kristoffer » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:48 pm

Oh, well maybe I had it all wrong, I always thought of it as a kind of threat and the other place as a kind of bribe. So is this "recompense", just some kind of euphemism or what? You think you are going to get compensation?(this is what it sounds like) is that it?

I would live as if there was a god, if you could live as if it was the only life you was ever getting. Is that possible? Of course I would have to butcher up quite a few pages out of the old books of the bible, the parts that make god look like a monster of course. (probably because it was written by barbaric bronze age tribesmen to justify what they did) Not that I am saying that it is totally corrupt, maybe just more like a pure heart inside a body of tainted flesh.

Much of the stuff Jesus Kristus said, makes sense but he did talk about hell in a way that kind of makes it sound like eternal torment. With all that "gnashing of teeth" and "everlasting fire" (Mathew 24:51 & 25:41 ) and everything. So what you say about recompense sounds like a Euphemism if Kristus makes it sound like a painful punishment.

Also what you said about personal experience Csl, I would accept that. As long as it was my personal experience and not someone else's.

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Re: going to hell?

#268

Post by B. W. » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:50 am

Kristoffer wrote:Oh, well maybe I had it all wrong, I always thought of it as a kind of threat and the other place as a kind of bribe. So is this "recompense", just some kind of euphemism or what? You think you are going to get compensation?(this is what it sounds like) is that it?

I would live as if there was a god, if you could live as if it was the only life you was ever getting. Is that possible? Of course I would have to butcher up quite a few pages out of the old books of the bible, the parts that make god look like a monster of course. (probably because it was written by barbaric bronze age tribesmen to justify what they did) Not that I am saying that it is totally corrupt, maybe just more like a pure heart inside a body of tainted flesh.

Much of the stuff Jesus Kristus said, makes sense but he did talk about hell in a way that kind of makes it sound like eternal torment. With all that "gnashing of teeth" and "everlasting fire" (Mathew 24:51 & 25:41 ) and everything. So what you say about recompense sounds like a Euphemism if Kristus makes it sound like a painful punishment.

Also what you said about personal experience Csl, I would accept that. As long as it was my personal experience and not someone else's.
Do you understand the use of metaphors and analogies? Again please take the time to read the entire thread as it may have many answers for you.

Now to answer a few of your comments:
Kristoffer wrote:I would live as if there was a god, if you could live as if it was the only life you was ever getting. Is that possible?
Answers: Ecclesiastes 8:11 — Isaiah 26:10 — Proverbs 1:32
Kristoffer wrote:Not that I am saying that it is totally corrupt, maybe just more like a pure heart inside a body of tainted flesh.
Answers: Jeremiah 17:9-10

Problem arises in use of words such as wicked used for the English translation of the Hebrew word which means: “to be sick, incurable, in poor health. It describes a weakened condition that can lead to death In its most potent theological usage, it describes the incurably 'mischievous', desperately sick condition of the human heart...” From AMG Word Studies

Same with the usage of evil which means twisted onto another path. In other words the kind of thinking that does not permit intellectual honest integrity. It seeks its own way and will over others just as many of your comments here so far allude too as well as prove.

Christ offer liberty — that a person does not have to remain on the twisted path — that they have now a real choice to consider. No one can force you to believe or convert; you can go you own way. Before this no one had a true choice because the only course of action was one that seeks to self justify oneself, hates the Christian message of freedom—thinking it as slavery, only thinks self as the supreme measure of reason, etc..

Worldly thought and religion does not permit intellectual honest integrity. The proof of this is found in human attempts to silence Christianity. What for? Just offering the truth of choice that one can voluntarily accept or reject?

We do not like to think that our paths produce pain, ruin, death, heartaches, miseries, etc & etc… If we all were just permitted to enter heaven then we would ruin it (Isaiah 26:10). The truth is this, God came to save us from ourselves and clean us up. How he does so is by calling to humanity that there is another way — so that a choice can be made. That is fair and just. Humanity as a whole denies what is fair and just by thinking only partial fairness and justice is all that is needed to triumph.

Christ died on the cross exposing this and was raised from the dead for those that come to the truth so they can be set free from what enslaves the heart to produce so much muck. The Lord offers a choice based on firm truth.

This choice shows forth liberty and tells the truth — guess the world, as yourself, chooses to deny the truth of the heart, deny the truth of true freedom, deny liberty that intellectual honest integrity brings. If you think of yourself as enlighten - then why are you here forcing your views upon us?

Please take the time to read:

John 3:16-19, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."


Where are you within these words?
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(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
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Re: going to hell?

#269

Post by Kristoffer » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:40 am

B. W. wrote:
Kristoffer wrote:...
Much of the stuff Jesus Kristus said...about personal experience Csl...As long as it was my personal experience and not someone else's.
B. W. wrote: Do you understand the use of metaphors and analogies?
I would hope so.

B. W. wrote:Now to answer a few of your comments:
Kristoffer wrote:I would live as if there was a god, if you could live as if it was the only life you was ever getting. Is that possible?
Answers: Ecclesiastes 8:11 — Isaiah 26:10 — Proverbs 1:32
Now let me respond:

Ecclesiastes 8:11-
This seems acceptable, it kind of seems like the message of this and the surrounding verses is that to "come out on top", you need to obey god. While i take a small amount of issue with the actual obeying, it does sound reasonable as read.

Isaiah 26:10- I am sorry but I disagree, This really doesn't apply to me I would take notice of such "majesty"

proverbs 1:32- On the face of it, this sounds acceptable. Although I find it hard to believe that I have turned away from anything its not my style I try to face things head on.
B. W. wrote:
Kristoffer wrote:Not that I am saying that it is totally corrupt, maybe just more like a pure heart inside a body of tainted flesh.
Answers: Jeremiah 17:9-10
Response: Doesn't quite ring true, atleast for me but "only the lord knows", sounds like a ounce of good old honesty! I would like to say that just two verses down, that it is true that a person who gets their wealth by unjust means will sooner or later lose it...Which is why I am not like that, my wealth comes from lots of perspiration(and a small amount of inspiration!)
B. W. wrote: Problem arises in use of words such as wicked used for the English translation of the Hebrew word which means: “to be sick, incurable, in poor health. It describes a weakened condition that can lead to death In its most potent theological usage, it describes the incurably 'mischievous', desperately sick condition of the human heart...” From AMG Word Studies
I can see how that could be a problem, I will add that to the notes pages in my copy.
B. W. wrote: Same with the usage of evil which means twisted onto another path. In other words the kind of thinking that does not permit intellectual honest integrity. It seeks its own way and will over others just as many of your comments here so far allude too as well as prove.
Can't god turn Evil things into good ones? What makes you think I am on a twisted path, how do you know god is not pushing me along...without me even knowing it?
B. W. wrote: Christ offer liberty — that a person does not have to remain on the twisted path
— that they have now a real choice to consider. No one can force you to believe or convert; you can go you own way.
Well, maybe I want my own twisted path...How do you know that all twisted paths are against kristus?
B. W. wrote:Worldly thought and religion does not permit intellectual honest integrity.
Wait, hold on...
Worldly thought and religion?
B. W. wrote: We do not like to think that our paths produce pain, ruin, death, heartaches, miseries,
Some people can accept painful truths. I know that I have made bad choices, but on the whole I think I have done some rather clever, wise and mighty things.
B. W. wrote:Christ died on the cross exposing this and was raised from the dead for those that come to the truth so they can be set free from what enslaves the heart to produce so much muck. The Lord offers a choice based on firm truth.
As long as it is remembered that Science is a process in which the human race can improve itself, in which as a people we can become more enlightened.

If you think of yourself as enlighten - then why are you here forcing your views upon us?
I don't think of myself like that, you got me all wrong. I totally agree with when I am called a fool, because I can make some pretty rash risky deciscions, but to go as far as insincere fool, you would need to actually understand me if you wanted to make that judgement.
B. W. wrote: Please take the time to read:

John 3:16-19, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."


Where are you within these words?
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Well, I am for the light of course, although my honesty tells myself that god is just a ideal and not a reality...I never say I am not subject to change. Change, reformation, repentance, evolution(disagree if you want!); These are all good things.

y@};-

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Re: going to hell?

#270

Post by cslewislover » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:16 pm

Kristoffer, in a post not long ago, you said intelligent design was rot or something. You were very disrespectful of it. Yet, you appreciate the beauty in nature (God Himself says that is one proof of Him). Now, one could possibly look at a creature or a plant, and imagine that there may have been enough time for that thing to evolve. But if you consider everything that exists, both how perfect and how mind-bogglingly complicated they are, coupled with how integrated with each other they are, how can one possibly think in any rational way that it all happened by chance? And I'm not talking like "poof" it came into existence chance, I'm talking about natural selection over a long time (which is innumerable chances). Like the multi-verse theory and it's absurd statistics; the universe as it exists, with all the complexities of the living world, cannot simply have happened by chance or by multitudes of chances. Yes, a type of "evolution" exists, but the foundations of life could not have just happened. And if you say there is another choice between chance and intelligent design (that is, that there's a creator of some sort) some how, I'd like to know how there could possibly be something else (life from aliens is not an option, since that only pushes the same argument further out).
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