going to hell?

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Re: going to hell?

#241

Post by kerryn » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:27 am

Hi B.W.

In my understanding of theology (Catholic). There are 2 judgements. The particular judgement (when you die) and the Final Judgement (before you resurrect).

At the particular judgement the soul is judged according to its state of sin. Mortal and you go to hell, with non mortal sin Purgatory, where the soul is cleansed before going to heaven.

At the particular judgement if the soul has mortal sin then the soul cannot look upon Gods holiness without feeling great agony and literally enters Hell of its own accord.

Because the soul has no chance to do meritous acts of good or evil the 'decision' that the soul (you) make is irrevocable and for eternity. This is partly because in Heaven/Hell there is no time - there is no opportunity to change your mind - Think of a forever now!

Think of it like this with mortal sin the soul has chosen to completely exclude Gods grace which is needed for salvation. If the person then dies in a state of mortal sin then there the soul has no ability to go to Heaven (there is no God within) to bring it home!

The Final judgement is when the soul is clothed in the glorified body as was demonstrated when Jesus was amongst his apostles after the resurrection. Just like we will be. Just as St Paul has said that our bodies will be glorified.

The final resurrection is judgement that all will see the justness and rightness of the souls condition for eternity before all. A statement of the glory and majesty of a just as well as a loving God. It does however uphold the 'state' upon which the soul has determined for itself in the afterlife after the 'private' particular judgement.

I hope this helps

KN

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Re: going to hell?

#242

Post by B. W. » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:57 pm

Thanks kerryn for your insight,

We would agree on everything except the differences between mortal sin and non-mortal sin, and purgatory. I am not sure what you mean by meritorious acts and I'll hold off comments about that as I am not really sure what you mean.

Now onto the subject of sin:

All sin is considered Mortal Sin in the bible. There are no sins that are less than other sins in God's sight. The bible plainly explains this because all sin eventually corrupts absolutely. Romans 5:10, 11, 12 explains this well as does Psalms 5:4, 5.

Now unto subject of the particular judgment and final judgment in brief talking points:

When we die we (our spiritual essence) goes immediately to face judgment as it s written in Hebrews 9:27. There one will either go be with the Lord or to the other place as Isaiah 24:22 alludes too as being shut up in a prison. There they wait the final judgment when such person's spiritual being is reunited with their body in final commuting of sentence (Revelation 20:11, 12, 13, 14, 15 and Daniel 12:2)

There are several reasons why this form of resurrected reuniting to occur. One is for the cleansing of the earth in accordance to the principle lain out in Leviticus 5:2, Haggai 2:13, and Numbers 19:13 because according to Revelation 21:3 and Revelation 22:3 the Tabernacle of God will be on the earth — uniting heaven and earth together so all unclean things have to be removed (Revelation21:8) elsewhere. Another reason is that God keeps his word and promises but that is even a deeper truth than the one mentioned above some of this has been written about on this very thread.

Note on Purgatory

I do not wish to get into any discussion about purgatory as by doing so, this would be an invitation to some rather hostile, unprofitable, and uncivil responses by a wide array of readers so that we would not be able to have a civil respectable debate on it all. Wish we could but several of us have been down that road before. So to be on the side of wisdom if you wish to discuss purgatory you may try opening a new thread post elsewhere on the forum for this but be ready for anything if you do!

My idea of purgatory is that a Christian person may go through a terrible prolonged mortal dying experience maybe due to something done long ago, the fruit of it being manifested now. This is not due to pay penance for sin but rather the result of its effect upon their entire lifespan which culminates during the dying process.

This is my opinion only and similar to the Eastern Orthodox idea concerning this - regarding the dying experience. I have no bible to base this on except the principle that a person may reap what they had sown in the body (AIDs for example or etc and etc). After they depart, then they enter heaven to be with the Lord.
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Re: going to hell?

#243

Post by CeT-To » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:56 pm

Hey B.W.,
B. W. wrote:Hi CeT-To,

Did the above comment help you discover an answer, or provides answers, to your question?
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Yes actually! hehe but ummm i think i had a question let me think LOL hmmmmmm oh yes! remember the lazarus story, well i was thinking.. do you think the rich man had actual faith in YWHW? because i think you stated that you are deemed righteous if you have faith in God. Well im askin this because im kind of sketchy that there is the bad side of sheol :? although it does make sense with the whole judgement subject and it does fit into what the bible says hahah actually i think i know what my problem :P what do they do in bad side of sheol ..well sheol now (since paradies in sheol is gone)?? from the story it sounds like the rich man is a place of fire...sooo why would he be moved from there to the burning lake of fire..sounds like the same thing to me. :|

Any idea B.W. i would much appreciate your help :ewink: thanxxx
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

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Re: going to hell?

#244

Post by B. W. » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:53 am

Hi CeT-To,

Here is a quote from Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on Luke 16. It pretty much covers your questions anregarding the rich man mentioned in Luke 16.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

Luke 16:19-31

Here the spiritual things are represented, in a description of the different state of good and bad, in this world and in the other. We are not told that the rich man got his estate by fraud, or oppression; but Christ shows, that a man may have a great deal of the wealth, pomp, and pleasure of this world, yet perish for ever under God's wrath and curse.

The sin of this rich man was his providing for himself only. Here is a godly man, and one that will hereafter be happy for ever, in the depth of adversity and distress. It is often the lot of some of the dearest of God's saints and servants to be greatly afflicted in this world. We are not told that the rich man did him any harm, but we do not find that he had any care for him.

Here is the different condition of this godly poor man, and this wicked rich man, at and after death. The rich man in hell lifted up his eyes, being in torment. It is not probable that there are discourses between glorified saints and damned sinners, but this dialogue shows the hopeless misery and fruitless desires, to which condemned spirits are brought.

There is a day coming, when those who now hate and despise the people of God, would gladly receive kindness from them. But the damned in hell shall not have the least abatement of their torment. Sinners are now called upon to remember; but they do not, they will not, they find ways to avoid it. As wicked people have good things only in this life, and at death are forever separated from all good, so godly people have evil things only in this life, and at death they are forever put from them.

In this world, blessed be God, there is no gulf between a state of nature and grace, we may pass from sin to God; but if we die in our sins, there is no coming out. The rich man had five brethren, and would have them stopped in their sinful course; their coming to that place of torment, would make his misery the worse, who had helped to show them the way thither. How many would now desire to recall or to undo what they have written or done!

Those who would make the rich man's praying to Abraham justify praying to saints departed, go far to seek for proofs, when the mistake of a damned sinner is all they can find for an example. And surely there is no encouragement to follow the example, when all his prayers were made in vain. A messenger from the dead could say no more than what is said in the Scriptures.

The same strength of corruption that breaks through the convictions of the written word, would triumph over a witness from the dead. Let us seek to the law and to the testimony, Isaiah 8:19, Isaiah 8:20, for that is the sure word of prophecy, upon which we may rest, 2 Peter 1:19. Circumstances in every age show that no terrors, or arguments, can give true repentance without the special grace of God renewing the sinner's heart.
Let me answer why the rich man will experience sheol and lake of fire later on from the post I made above yours and add some more insights in orange:
B. W. wrote:Now unto subject of the particular judgment and final judgment in brief talking points:

When we die we (our spiritual essence) goes immediately to face judgment as it s written in Hebrews 9:27. There one will either go be with the Lord or to the other place as Isaiah 24:22 (Sheol) alludes too as being shut up in a prison. There they wait the final judgment when such person's spiritual being is reunited with their body in final commuting of sentence (Revelation 20:11, 12, 13, 14, 15 and Daniel 12:2)

There are several reasons why this form of resurrected reuniting to occur. One is for the cleansing of the earth in accordance to the principle lain out in Leviticus 5:2, Haggai 2:13, and Numbers 19:13 because according to Revelation 21:3 and Revelation 22:3 the Tabernacle of God will be on the earth — uniting heaven and earth together so all unclean things have to be removed (Revelation21:8) elsewhere. Another reason is that God keeps his word and promises but that is even a deeper truth than the one mentioned above some of this has been written about on this very thread.

According to the bible everything that touches something that dies is considered unclean and needs to be cleased and cannot touch or be part of the Tabernacle of God. Therefore, the unclean things are removed so that the Dwelling Place of God rests on the new earth so that heaven and earth are united.Things that defile are removed elswhere banished away that would be one reason why the rich man would find himself in the lake of fire forever banished away from God.
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Re: going to hell?

#245

Post by CeT-To » Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:15 pm

Ahhh okie but why is the rich man burning in flames? is that how sheol is described ? because why would God them move the damned from one bruning place to another? do you mind explaining this B.W.?

thanx so much by the way for providing lots of info :clap:
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

I Praise you Yahweh, my Lord, my God!!!!!

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Re: going to hell?

#246

Post by B. W. » Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:35 pm

CeT-To wrote:Ahhh okie but why is the rich man burning in flames? is that how sheol is described ? because why would God them move the damned from one bruning place to another? do you mind explaining this B.W.?

thanx so much by the way for providing lots of info :clap:
Sorry about not understanding your question fully as I should :(

Sheol is described several ways in the bible a place of fire from Luke 16, Ezekiel 31:16 a pit, this pit described in Ezekiel 32:18, 23, 23, 24, 26, 31 as round with varied levels - with chambers embedded within its walls - inhabitants mentally aware. Job 26:5-6 those there are alive as they can tremble. A Place of darkness, fire, heat, oppression is described elsewhere in the bible.

In other words sheol is described in many different ways. So therefore, sheol must be a big place where there are many different parts that vary from place to place. Think of any foreign country. It own landscape varies depending of geography of the country. So it stands to reason that sheol would be varied just as the scriptures indicate.
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Re: going to hell?

#247

Post by CeT-To » Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:48 pm

B. W. wrote:
CeT-To wrote:Ahhh okie but why is the rich man burning in flames? is that how sheol is described ? because why would God them move the damned from one bruning place to another? do you mind explaining this B.W.?

thanx so much by the way for providing lots of info :clap:
Sorry about not understanding your question fully as I should :(

Sheol is described several ways in the bible a place of fire from Luke 16, Ezekiel 31:16 a pit, this pit described in Ezekiel 32:18, 23, 23, 24, 26, 31 as round with varied levels - with chambers embedded within its walls - inhabitants mentally aware. Job 26:5-6 those there are alive as they can tremble. A Place of darkness, fire, heat, oppression is described elsewhere in the bible.

In other words sheol is described in many different ways. So therefore, sheol must be a big place where there are many different parts that vary from place to place. Think of any foreign country. It own landscape varies depending of geography of the country. So it stands to reason that sheol would be varied just as the scriptures indicate.
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No no its alright,im very greatful for the information who have given to me. So when you said "A place of darkness, fire, heat, oppression is described some where else in the bible" were you you talking about the lake of fire or those description i have quoted from you are just more characteristics of Sheol?
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

I Praise you Yahweh, my Lord, my God!!!!!

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Re: going to hell?

#248

Post by B. W. » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:48 pm

CeT-To wrote:...No no its alright,im very greatful for the information who have given to me. So when you said "A place of darkness, fire, heat, oppression is described some where else in the bible" were you you talking about the lake of fire or those description i have quoted from you are just more characteristics of Sheol?
They would be more characteristics of different locations in sheol...
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Re: going to hell?

#249

Post by CeT-To » Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:34 pm

ahh hehe i get it now :P thanx B.W. i can always count on you :D Although i still find it weird that the rich man is gonna be moved from on eburning place to another y:-? probably lake of fire is much more painful y:O2 ..hmm oh well
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

I Praise you Yahweh, my Lord, my God!!!!!

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Re: going to hell?

#250

Post by B. W. » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:38 pm

CeT-To wrote:ahh hehe i get it now :P thanx B.W. i can always count on you :D Although i still find it weird that the rich man is gonna be moved from on eburning place to another y:-? probably lake of fire is much more painful y:O2 ..hmm oh well
In cases involving Fires of 'sheol' or even the 'Lake of Fire' Fire often is used as a metaphor or represents some form of symbolism…and may not refer to literal flames...but something else

That is also important to keep in mind
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Re: going to hell?

#251

Post by Enginseer » Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:46 am

It would be nice if there where an after life. However being dead is exactly the same as it was before you where born.

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Re: going to hell?

#252

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:50 am

Enginseer wrote:It would be nice if there where an after life. However being dead is exactly the same as it was before you where born.
And you have this certainty in knowledge because...?

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Re: going to hell?

#253

Post by CeT-To » Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:14 am

http://www.matthewmcgee.org/helwords.html <<< Hey B.W. if you see this can you check out this site and tell me if the info is correct in your oppinion, it sounds A LOT like what we were talking about months ago. I just want your oppinion if this is correct since we never talked about the Abyss and Tartaroo, yet i know that you have been to Sheol/Hades (torment side) and back ( haha i watched that vid on youtube where you were talking about your experience there! it was soooo scary!). i Hope you see this !

God bless! Keep fighting your illness B.W. stay strong!!! >.< i know God is with you!!!
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

I Praise you Yahweh, my Lord, my God!!!!!

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Re: going to hell?

#254

Post by B. W. » Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:20 am

CeT-To wrote:http://www.matthewmcgee.org/helwords.html <<< Hey B.W. if you see this can you check out this site and tell me if the info is correct in your oppinion, it sounds A LOT like what we were talking about months ago. I just want your oppinion if this is correct since we never talked about the Abyss and Tartaroo, yet i know that you have been to Sheol/Hades (torment side) and back ( haha i watched that vid on youtube where you were talking about your experience there! it was soooo scary!). i Hope you see this !

God bless! Keep fighting your illness B.W. stay strong!!! >.< i know God is with you!!!

I'll look over this and get back to you soon..
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Re: going to hell?

#255

Post by CeT-To » Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:36 am

thanx B.W. !! you 're a champ! :wave: :D
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

I Praise you Yahweh, my Lord, my God!!!!!

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