going to hell?

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
catherine
Established Member
Posts: 247
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:10 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: UK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: going to hell?

#196

Post by catherine » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:07 am

Hi Obsolete, thanks for your reply. I've come across this idea of 'paradise' or an afterlife that isn't in heaven, before. Would you say you base this belief on the Lazarus story ONLY, or are there other scriptures in both the OT and the NT that support this?

regards

Catherine

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: going to hell?

#197

Post by B. W. » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:03 am

catherine wrote:Hi B.W, I've been reading your 'Study of Psalm 88:1-9' and would like to clarify some points. In part 3 you say: 'Sheol in the Old Testament refers to the abode of the dead and used synonymously with the Pit, Hell, Hades, Chambers of death, grave, etc. It is a place inhabited by 'shades.'' And you also say: 'Only those that are cut off from the Lord go into this place called the Pit'.

Are you saying then that only wicked people, ie people who are eternally damned or 'unsaved' go to sheol? And if you are saying that, where did people like David, Job etc go when they died? Forgive me if you answered these questions, but it's quite a long article and I may have missed parts unintentionally.....

regards

Catherine
Hi Catherrine,

In the Old Testament there was a place for the unrighteous and the righteous dead to go too. Jesus in Luke 16:19-33 illustrates this concept. Lazarus went to a part of Sheol called Paradise. The other man did not. Later in the New Testament, the bible specifically states that Jesus went to Paradise (Luke 23:43, Ephesians 5:8-9, 1 Peter 3:19-20: aside note see Ezekiel 26:20) and led captivity in Paradise into heaven.

Sheol also contains a part called the Pit. The writer of Psalms 88:4 stated he felt like one of those who go down into the pit. Those that go to that particular location are the unrighteous. Those would be eternally damned or 'unsaved' who would never praise God. Why would they? The image of hell that the bible paints is a very large place; therefore, the word Sheol, Hades, Hell are used with that frame of reference and other locations there like the pit are also named.
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

willieH
Acquainted Member
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 4:11 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: going to hell?

#198

Post by willieH » Sat May 09, 2009 4:45 pm

There is no such term as "God the Son"... there is only ONE GOD that is the FATHER, and His name is YHVH :ebiggrin:

and btw... there is no such thing as "HELL"... ;)

The GOSPEL has no place for such things, as it is ...GOOD NEWS only... :amen:

...willieH :mrgreen:

willieH
Acquainted Member
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 4:11 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: going to hell?

#199

Post by willieH » Sun May 10, 2009 6:05 pm

willieH: Hi B.W. :wave:

I know this is our first encounter in discussion... and please know I mean you no harm. However, I find your post full of MUCH speculation, and completely unfounded remarks, concerning the Bible and its message.

Just before this portion (part 5) of CHRIST's FIVE-part Parable is spoken in Luke 15 & 16 (there are no chapter/verse designations in the original texts)... CHRIST notes that (vs 16) "the Law and the prophets were until John; since that time the Kingdom of God is preached. And ...EVERY MAN... presseth INTO IT."

The word EVERY in this verse, is PAS {#G3956 Strongs), meaning ALL, WHOLE, EVERY... and then CHRIST proposes the 2 figurative personages of "Lazerus" (Spiritually Poor Gentiles) and the "Rich man" (Spiritually RICH Jews)... Speaking about the FAITH which makes one SPIRITUALLY ALIVE while IN this LIFE of SIN, and part of the 1st Resurrection... as OPPOSED to the SPIRITUALLY DEAD which shall be raised FROM the GRAVE, in the 2nd Resurrection.
B. W. wrote:Hi Catherrine,

In the Old Testament there was a place for the unrighteous and the righteous dead to go too. Jesus in Luke 16:19-33 illustrates this concept. Lazarus went to a part of Sheol called Paradise.
What a complete SPECULATION is this! :esurprised:

This is NOT what that Parable says - BW -- It says in PARABOLIC/Figurative speech --- that when these 2 died (spiritually), one went to HADES, the other into the bosum of Abraham... which was IN PROXIMITY to the other, as they "CONVERSED"... even though there was a GAP between them. Believers speak with unBelievers, even though they have a GAP between them concerning FAITH...

There is no Scriptural basis that says that "part" of SHEOL is called Paradise! SHEOL is the GRAVE, the HOUSE of DEATH.

Men are born "DEAD"... as CHRIST noted LIVING MEN as "DEAD" -- Matt 8:22

These 2 both were DEAD (spiritually)... but one which did NOT have the Oracles of GOD and the heritage of the FAITH of Abraham (Gentiles), actually gained it, ...whereas the one which had the Oracles of God and the heritage of the FAITH of Abraham (Jews), were found without it... and when it was recognized, pleaded that his brothers be given enlightenment, and the response from Abraham was: "they HAVE Moses & the Prophets, let them hear them" Who had/has Moses & the Prophets? the JEWS!

Luke 16:19-33 is plainly about the JEWS and GENTILES, and the separation of FAITH and UNBELIEF, not the theologically invented BAD NEWS of "HELL"...

The "bosum of Abraham" is NOT HEAVEN, neither can Abraham forgive SIN... GOD, HEAVEN nor CHRIST are NOT MENTIONED in this PARABLE (btw - Parables are figurative stories, not depicting actual persons or places)

Let me separate these verses you use as "proofs" and discuss them individually:
The other man did not. Later in the New Testament, the bible specifically states that Jesus went to Paradise (Luke 23:43


JESUS did NOT go to Paradise the day of His crucifixtion! He went to the GRAVE! In DEATH!

He is here telling the "thief" that: "I say unto thee TODAY, ...shalt thou be with Me in paradise" CHRIST did not even rise from the GRAVE until THREE DAYS LATER... for crying out loud!
Ephesians 5:8-9
Where do you get the idea that this verse is proving JESUS went to Paradise?
1 Peter 3:19-20


This is not talking about CHRIST in paradise (Heaven)! :stars:

This is speaking of His ministry on the earth, speaking to MEN who are IMPRISONED in their SIN, to whom HE PREACHED before His death!
aside note see Ezekiel 26:20) and led captivity in Paradise into heaven.


No offense BW... but the PIT is THIS LIFE... Men are SPIRITUALLY DEAD while LIVING in THIS LIFE... CHRIST came into THIS LIFE to lead the "DEAD" back to LIFE...
Sheol also contains a part called the Pit.


More Biblically unsubstanciated proposals... y:-?
The writer of Psalms 88:4 stated he felt like one of those who go down into the pit.


It doesn't say that at all, BW... It says this: I am COUNTED with them that go down into the PIT... Not that he "felt like them"... He is saying HE is NUMBERED WITH THEM...

Psalm 88:4 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
4 I am counted among those going down to the Pit. (A)
I am like a man without strength, (B)


Psalm 88:4 (Young's Literal Translation)

4I have been reckoned with those going down [to] the pit, I have been as a man without strength.


Psalm 88:4 (English Standard Version)
4I am counted among those who(A) go down to the pit;
I am a man who has no strength,


Sorry Brother, but this does not say he was observing these, and FELT like them, it is saying that HE is AMONG them...
Those that go to that particular location are the unrighteous.


This is unfounded. SHEOL nor HADES (Greek equivalent), is DIVIDED into sections of PARADISE, and PIT... It is simply the GRAVE of DEATH.
Those would be eternally damned or 'unsaved' who would never praise God. Why would they? The image of hell that the bible paints is a very large place;


FIRST -- if you think you are presenting the GOSPEL and are teaching others that men will be ETERNALLY DAMNED... this is hardly GOSPEL type News! Also, anything "ETERNAL", always IS in that state, so anyone who is ETERNALLY Damned, IS damned, WAS damned, and ALWAYS WILL BE damned... Having no other state for DAMNATION is said to be ETERNAL and the ETERNAL has NO BEGINNING or END... :roll:

SECOND -- What Scriptures notes that the "image" of "hell" is a "very large place"?

Please! SHEOL is the GRAVE, which is simply, the Unseen world of the DEAD... that is ALL that it IS... It is not "half Paradise" -- "half pit", it is not "HELL" where people are UNREALISITICALLY and UNMERCIFULLY tormented... It is the ABSENCE of LIFE...
therefore, the word Sheol, Hades, Hell are used with that frame of reference and other locations there like the pit are also named.
According to tradition minded, UNBIBLICAL Theologians, it is... According to the original language and the necessitation of the WORD GOSPEL which means EXCLUSIVELY GOOD NEWS, it is NOT...

Peace... yp**==

...willieH :giverose:

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: going to hell?

#200

Post by B. W. » Tue May 12, 2009 12:45 pm

willieH wrote:willieH: Hi B.W. :wave:
...I know this is our first encounter in discussion... and please know I mean you no harm. However, I find your post full of MUCH speculation, and completely unfounded remarks, concerning the Bible and its message....
Hi Willie,

I am recovering from a major sinus infection and on the mend so I have been off line a few days. I'll respond - Lord willing - tomorrow...

Be blest!
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

willieH
Acquainted Member
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 4:11 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: going to hell?

#201

Post by willieH » Tue May 12, 2009 2:43 pm

willieH: Hi BW... :wave:
B. W. wrote:
willieH wrote:willieH: Hi B.W. :wave:
...I know this is our first encounter in discussion... and please know I mean you no harm. However, I find your post full of MUCH speculation, and completely unfounded remarks, concerning the Bible and its message....
Hi Willie,

I am recovering from a major sinus infection and on the mend so I have been off line a few days. I'll respond - Lord willing - tomorrow...

Be blest!
Sorry to hear you are not feeling well... I look forward to your reponse brother... y@};-

...willieH yp**==

User avatar
Gman
Old School
Posts: 6081
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Northern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: going to hell?

#202

Post by Gman » Tue May 12, 2009 6:41 pm

Hi willieH, just curious.. What church do you belong too? The Way International or Jehovah Witnesses?

thx
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: going to hell?

#203

Post by B. W. » Wed May 13, 2009 8:30 am

Willie, I posted this on another thread but it fits here as well. I'll remove Bavarian's questions … and revise it a bit…

People like to use Jude 7 and 2 Peter 2:6 as examples that eternal and everlasting mean a temporary duration of time because the cities destroyed do not exist.

The Phrases used in Jude 7 and 2 Peter 2:6, 'eternal fire' is being used synonymously to refer to 'eternal judgment' which began the moment the cities on the plains were destroyed. Likewise, in the book of Revelations God's judgment is poured out indicating that it has a definite beginning.

After the judgment is executed in Revelations and its prophecy fulfilled, the areas destroyed are no more. Does this mean God's judgment and wrath ceases because our eyes cannot see it? The answer is a resounding 'NO!' It is carried out elsewhere — forever (Hebrews 9:27) because after judgment comes the commuting of sentence (Luke 12:4-5).

People read into the text and cite — the cities mentioned in Jude and 2 Peter do not exist, there is no fire, so therefore eternal punishment is not eternal. This is wrong — Deu 32:22 states God's wrath continues to burn in the lowest hell. That is forever. There is a reason for this. After all, various bible passages teach that whatever God does it endures forever, his counsel will stand, etc (concisely summed up in Ecc 3:14).

Next, as for the words translated forever/eternal meaning age or a short duration of an age of time, again that is reading into the text what it may not really mean. It is the context that defines and reveals the actual meaning of the words. By spinning a short age/duration into every meaning of text does injustice to the bible.

Look at Matthew 25:46, “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." ESV

If eternal punishment is not forever, neither would eternal life be forever either. You have the word eternal used twice in same grammar from and usage. You cannot use one definition for one word without applying it to the other in this text without violating the very grammar of the text. If eternal life that comes through the Lord to be with him is not eternal then the bible has recorded and proven God's own word to be based on an irreconcilable contradiction and thus not true.

Look realistically at what writers like Fudge and Stotts do — in essences their argument makes God bow to the whims of man's will. That is rebellion. Rebellion is the sin of divination/witchcraft the bible states in 1 Samuel 15:23. Divination/witchcraft as used in the context of that OT verse meant that people manipulate God or gods, or spirits to do a person's bidding. Who are we to cite that God's wrath / punishment unfair if it last eternally forever? Who are we to tell God, he cannot do this by manipulating the bible text to get us off the eternal hook? Are you doing so Willie?

If you but look at how God proves his justice, you'll discover why his wrath is eternal and why he gives to each according to their deeds — reaping what they have sown. How can God be just if he is coercive, does not allow people to make up there own minds even knowing their deeds and intents before they are ever born (Deu 31:21, Lev 26:14-15, 23,27)?

In his justice — he still lets them live! Amazingly profound! Yet hold them justly to account as well as warns them despite knowing what they'll do and how they'll end up! Does this not prove God judges with equities fairness as well as prove he is just to all? After all, God really has no need to consider anyone further as Job 34:23 states, but because of who he is — He still let's a person live. Ponder his awesome justice more on your own.

Compare that principle of justice to heaven if God allows all in as some cite. If such foreknown corruption is allowed into heaven — then it would corrupt it. No, God will not allow this to happen again. He provides the means to return to him, on his terms, and cleanses us during this mortal sojourn (Isaiah 55:6-7). Reject this — then God honors that person's intent and also will not renege on the gift of life he gave. What God does endures forever (Ecc 3:14-17, Isaiah 45:21-25) if not, then how can he be God true to himself? A God who keeps his word and reneges on no gift?

If one argues that life is not a gift from God — then what is it (Job 33:4)? He foreknew us all before we were ever born and could have chose not to make humanity because of sin. Instead, he did what? What do we each of us do with this gift of life? If God fashioned us originally according to a similitude of his image and likeness does not whatever God does endure forever?

If God made the soul, spirit, and the mortal body of human beings, then these also will last forever as God deems best according to his own time and purposes — not ours. He made us; therefore, what he made is forever. Deny that foreverness in any shape or form, then how could God really be a just God and savior? Think on this a bit more.

Opponents suggest that they believe the Lake of Fire will burn for "a little bit" as it will burn as long as there is something left to burn. After that, it is annihilated and ceases to exist how long this takes — no one knows. Question: Since sometime it will cease then how can it eternally burn nothing when there is nothing to left to burn?

Again the principles lain out in Ecc 3:14-17, Isaiah 45:21-25 Isaiah 55:11 tell us otherwise because God's ways are not out own.

Willie, your argument rest on the premise that God cannot be a happy torturer so in love he annihilates into non-being instead and others objections rest that God's love will save all in the sweet bye and bye.

The position that cites, that God is cruel for everlasting torment of the lost in fire may appeal to human reasoning to appease ones sense of fairness but think again. Fire can be literal or symbolic. In Revelations 20:10 and verse 15 make it plain that whatever this fire is — it will last forever and ever causing those within it to eternally reap what they have sown. If it is sin they want and rebellion — they'll have it tormenting them.

Please do not bring disrupt to God and make him out as cruel for everlasting torment of the lost. Jesus warns all to avoid hell at all cost; yet, people continue to mock its need, obfuscate its duration, or deny its reality in hopes eternal is not true. Who is right - Jesus or men?

Also note in Revelations it lays out the principle that it is one's own torment that does the tormenting — not God. This fits these principles within the bible, what a person sows they'll reap as well as God rending each one according to their deeds; therefore, your or anyone's revulsion of God being a happy torturer is scripturally unfound as well as unsound.

Finally, oblivion is non-being. Non-being would also be unjust for a just God to perform even though he could. If he did, how could he really and truthfully be just to a living being like us by taking away the gift of life he gave turning it into a non-being state? Would this not prove that God is not really and truthfully just and absolutely unable to keep his word? How do you think the devil got away with his rebellion — albeit temporally?

There are way too many scriptures that reveal God keeps his word and reneges on no gift even when he foreknows one will abuse such gifts and callings. He made a way back to him and pleads to all to avoid an eternal everlasting hell. Yet, he is just to the unjust giving them what they desire — life without him after he warns them through the gospel offering them another chance despite already knowing the answer of their/ our hearts. Justice profound!

Final Note on Universalism:

Universalist claim that God cannot torture and are repulsed by the notion that God could ever be a happy torturer. However, some Universalist proceeds to make the claim that God tortures with fire in a small pond until a person is purged of sin. Then everyone eventually enters heaven loving God.

How can God, who cannot torture — torture people until they love him? That is illogical as it denies God of his own justice. It also makes the work of the Cross pointless as all can eventually be forced to love God by means of fire. Universalism actually denies the purpose of the cross altogether because Christ would have died in vain if all get it by means of a little purging torture to make them love God.

Again, who is forcing whose knee to bow to whom? Rebellion is the sin of divination…

Repent…

Jeremiah 17:9-10, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? 10 "I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."

Isaiah 59:18, “According to their deeds, so will he repay, wrath to his adversaries, repayment to his enemies; to the coastlands he will render repayment.”

Proverbs 3:33-35, “The LORD's curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the dwelling of the righteous. 34 Toward the scorners he is scornful, but to the humble he gives favor. 35 The wise will inherit honor, but fools get disgrace. “

Isaiah 46:10, “…declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose…”

Ecc 3:14-17, “I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him. 15 That which is, already has been; that which is to be, already has been; and God seeks what has been driven away. 16 Moreover, I saw under the sun that in the place of justice, even there was wickedness, and in the place of righteousness, even there was wickedness. 17 I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work…”

Job 34:10-12, "Therefore, hear me, you men of understanding: far be it from God that he should do wickedness, and from the Almighty that he should do wrong. 11 For according to the work of a man he will repay him, and according to his ways he will make it befall him. 12 Of a truth, God will not do wickedly, and the Almighty will not pervert justice.”


All Scriptures cited are from the ESV
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

User avatar
BavarianWheels
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1806
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:09 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 14 times

Re: going to hell?

#204

Post by BavarianWheels » Wed May 13, 2009 10:11 am

B. W. wrote:Long post above ;)
Once again and with all due respect, BW...where exactly in the Bible is the wages of sin eternal pain and agony?

My Bible explicitly states that the wages of sin is death...eternal death, which is a punishment. At no time have I ever said that the punishment isn't eternal...I simply disagree with your interpretation that the punishment is eternal burning in pain and agony rather than the plain reading of the Bible...death.

Christ PAID our penalty of eternal death and separation from God...hence the cry of "My God, my God..."
.
.

willieH
Acquainted Member
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat May 09, 2009 4:11 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: going to hell?

#205

Post by willieH » Wed May 13, 2009 12:01 pm

willieH: Hi :wave:

Not sure if you are "GMAN" or "THX" or both... But hello, nevertheless! :lol:
Gman wrote:Hi willieH, just curious.. What church do you belong too? The Way International or Jehovah Witnesses?

thx

I belong to "GOD" and the UNSEEN "church" within HIM... which in FACT, ...is the ONLY "church"

hope that answers your question... :cheers:

...willieH yp**==

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: going to hell?

#206

Post by B. W. » Wed May 13, 2009 11:49 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
B. W. wrote:Long post above ;)
Once again and with all due respect, BW...where exactly in the Bible is the wages of sin eternal pain and agony?

My Bible explicitly states that the wages of sin is death...eternal death, which is a punishment. At no time have I ever said that the punishment isn't eternal...I simply disagree with your interpretation that the punishment is eternal burning in pain and agony rather than the plain reading of the Bible...death.

Christ PAID our penalty of eternal death and separation from God...hence the cry of "My God, my God..."
Look the following verses to help a bit more(note -- I posted many full scripture quotes so this post looks longer than it is):

John 3:36, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

Question: If wrath remains on a person and as well as the Lord's curse is on the house of the wicked (Proverbs 3:33-35), and then whatever God does endures forever how can God's wrath remain on a person who ceases to exist?

Again Matthew 25:46 answers that death does not mean a non-being state: “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Note in Matt 25:46 reveals that there are two courses for a person — eternal punishment or eternal life with the Lord. Both are eternal. The bible qualifies eternal life as being with the Lord and eternal punishment commuted upon those that reject the Lord as it is written:

Jeremiah 17:9-10, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? 10 " I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."

Isaiah 59:18, “According to their deeds, so will he repay, wrath to his adversaries, repayment to his enemies...”

Question: So if those that reject the Lord are annihilated into non-being then how can you punish nothing forever?

Remember Matthew 25:46 the word eternal means forever and ever and not a temporary time period because eternal life with God is forever so would be punishment: in fact, Annihilationism actually let's the criminal get away with the crime by getting such off the hook quite handily.

What's more to fear an eternal life sentence incarcerated or exterminated into non-being?

Next, let's look at eternal fire - is it eternal or not?

Matthew 25:41
, "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Notice where the devil and his messengers go:

Rev 20:10,“…and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

Let's see, the false prophet according to the bible will be a human being. Hmmm — tormented day and night forever and ever? How can that be if human beings are annihilated into non-being?

If you say the false prophet is a special case deserving of this then does God indeed show partiality? Hmmm????

Next, guess where those human beings that reject the Lord go…

Rev 20:15, “And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”

This is the final resting place for the condemned. We may not like it but it is real. As for fire, it can be both literal and symbolic. Symbolic of God's wrath and judgment which sentence them to a place of containment proving God does not renege on the gift of life he gives. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living God.

This final and last judgment is a living death. In summery you stated that the wages of sin is death and by this you mean death is the punishment of non-being/nonexistence. One may suffer a while but eventual they cease to exist and are eventually exterminated into non-existence.

Look at this quote from Job:

Job 30:23
, “For I know that you will bring me to death and to the house appointed for all living…”

Notice Job stated he will be brought to death at some point and then from there to the house appointed for all living. He did not state he would be brought to death at some point and then from there cease to exist. There is life after death is what Job is referring too.

Ones Eternal dwelling — or ones eternal home is where one lives after mortal dying is over with. It is a place and this is what the bible indeed reveals. Sometimes the bible writers uses metaphors such as — rest with ones fathers, etc. They understood that the body rots away but the spirit returns to God to be judged and from there they go to their eternal home.

Don't believe this? Look at...

Ecc 12:5
, “…they are afraid also of what is high, and terrors are in the way; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags itself along, and desire fails, because man is going to his eternal home, and the mourners go about the streets…”

Look at this statement from Genesis 44:29: “…If you take this one also from me, and harm happens to him, you will bring down my gray hairs in evil (misery, distress, misery, injury, calamity) to Sheol.”

Note that the word translated evil (7451) denotes misery, distress, misery, injury, calamity, malignant, bad, unpleasant, evil - giving pain, unhappiness - not annihilationism's non-being of the grave state of being.

This is a feeling word. If one non-exists then how can one feel misery, distress, misery, injury, calamity, malignant, bad, unpleasant, evil - giving pain, unhappiness in Sheol?

Now look at Psalms 49:6-14: “They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches; 7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him.

“8 For the redemption of their soul is costly, and must be let alone for ever: 9 That he should still live alway, that he should not see corruption. 10 For he seeth that wise men die, the fool and the brutish together perish, and leave their wealth to others.

“11 Their inward thought is, that their houses shall continue for ever, and their dwelling places to all generations; they call their lands after their own names. 12 But man abideth not in honour: he is like the beasts that perish. 13 This their way is their folly: yet after them men approve their sayings. Selah

“14 They are appointed as a flock for Sheol; death shall be their shepherd: and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall be for Sheol to consume, that there be no habitation for it.”
RV

Notice verse 12 of Psalms 49 and the statement — like beast that perish and what Ecc 3:18, 21 says: “I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts….21 Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?”

Please note what Deuteronomy 32:22 says as well as Numbers 16:30-33 where Korah went in order to understand what is meant that going down into the earth is not limited to being buried in a gave (or tomb).

Read Ecc 3:17, “I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for there is a time for every matter and for every work.”

Again Jeremiah 17:9-10: “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? 10 "I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."

Note: Ecc 3:14-17, “I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.

Now Back to Psalms 49:14 and notice it states the lost are appointed as a flock for Sheol. A Flock is a group and not a singular person in a single grave buried but a group just as Proverbs 21:16 states in the YLT version: “A man who is wandering from the way of understanding, In an assembly of Rephaim (Shades) resteth.” (Look this up in your own translation as well).

Look further at Psalms 49:14 as it states death shall be their shepherd. A Shepherd tends a flock. The death being spoken here is a living death — experiencing the wages of sin over and over again - not non-being. It speaks of being brought into a continual state of ruin because ones beauty shall be for Sheol to consume, that there be no habitation for what they once had and were during mortal life in Sheol.

Now Ecc 3:22 says this, “So I saw that there is nothing better than that a man should rejoice in his work, for that is his lot. Who can bring him to see what will be after him?”

Jesus answered this in Luke 16:19-31 and everywhere he spoke of hell to avoid at all cost...

Death does not mean non-existence — the bible does not teach this nor does it teach a limited duration of punishment then non-existence either. The criminal knowing punishment is temporary can endure till the restful non-existent state of peace comes on line. However, the bible teaches that there is no rest/peace for the wicked as Isaiah 57:21 clearly states!

Job 26:5-6, “The dead tremble (2342 twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained, etc…) under the waters and their inhabitants. 6 Sheol is naked before God, and Abaddon has no covering.”

Last Question: How can the non-existent tremble?

All Scriptures not cited are from the ESV.

Bavarian we both do agree on this --- Christ PAID our penalty of eternal death and separation from God...

Amen
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

God's chosen ones
Newbie Member
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 4:23 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: going to hell?

#207

Post by God's chosen ones » Tue May 26, 2009 4:31 pm

It is not pre-ordained or pre-known by God which direction one shall go. God has free-will and the power to decide. Many assume judgment is condemnation and not a chance for redemption for those NOT called or chosen.

I do NOT see GOD as a condemner, although it appears so at face value, if you simply read the scripture without understanding the nature of someone.

In death, you sleep in the grave until the resurrection. For without it, you would simply be dead in your sins. Additionally, when it talks of a second death, I think it is death, not location is a different place.

User avatar
Jac3510
Ultimate Member
Posts: 5489
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Fort Smith, AR
Has liked: 137 times
Been liked: 336 times
Contact:

Re: going to hell?

#208

Post by Jac3510 » Wed May 27, 2009 1:22 pm

God's chosen ones wrote:It is not pre-ordained or pre-known by God which direction one shall go.
Are you saying that God doesn't know the future?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

User avatar
For_Narniaaa
Established Member
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri May 15, 2009 5:06 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Cair Paravel
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: going to hell?

#209

Post by For_Narniaaa » Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:20 am

Since God is timeless, maybe He could just "zap" (for lack of a better word) us forward to Judgment Day after we die. It would seem instantaneous. I mean, once we leave this world, I don't really think we need to be bound by its time anymore.

Just a theory...
Image

"Fear of the Lord is the foundation of true knowledge." ~Proverbs 1:7

"The God of the universe---the Creator of nitrogen and pine needles, galaxies and E-minor---loves you with a radical, unconditional, self-sacrificing love." ~Francis Chan

Banner credit: arwen-undomiel.com

User avatar
Gman
Old School
Posts: 6081
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Northern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: going to hell?

#210

Post by Gman » Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:25 pm

The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

Post Reply