Tower of Babel = God hates us

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Tower of Babel = God hates us

#1

Post by Forge » Sat Apr 21, 2007 2:44 pm

I've been debating this guy, and he got me thinking about this. Basically, he says that the language-scrambling that went on in the Tower of Babel thing proves that God is either malevolent or frightened of humanity.

Anway, look. First quote is me, the following is the guy I'm debating. Help plz k thx.


Or it could be God saw humankind was becoming too prideful. Look at how the metaphorical builders spoke. They wanted to build a tower to heaven, or to go into God's realm without filling out hte prerequisites.
The Hebrew word used here is in fact shamayim, which, while often rendered "Heaven" is better translated as "the heavens" or "the skies" (shamayim is also used in Genesis 1:1. The most literal translation of that line, while still being sensible, is "In the beginning, the gods created the skies and the deep").

So that's out.

Further, by that point, the prerequisites had not been established. God had earlier stated that no humans will thenceforth be allowed into Heaven (though apparently he meant to say "No humans, except for Enoch"), but this was before the covenant with Abraham.

So presumably, at this point, humans were let in on a "I like you" basis by God, and remember that God is at this point still a very violent deity, if Exodus and Kings is anything to go by. Can you really blame them by wanting to get in themselves, then? Should God?

More to the point, there is nothing here to suggest that God saw pride, and precious little to say that humans were prideful themselves. The builder's quote is "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."

The goal of the builder is, very clearly, to unite humanity, and not have humanity be scattered across the whole of the planet. The tower of Babel seems like little more than an extravagence, something to differentiate the city from the other cities of the world, similar to how "Statue of Liberty," "Leaning Tower," and "Pyramids" conjure images of the cities of New York, Piza, and Cairo, respectively.

God then says, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them."

This does not suggest in any way that God thinks we are being prideful. If anything, it suggests amazement and wonder. God is impressed, not angered or saddened or anything so negative.

So then he decides to scatter us, for no reason.

Why would a God, who has just been impressed with us, decide to scatter us? The only realistic answers to this is either fear or maliciousness. Or, perhaps, a bit of pride on his own part. Humanity, in any event, is cramping his style. "nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them," says God. If God, a being of infinite power, is saying that humanity can do anything, then I'm thinking we were posing a considerable threat to his "Lord of All Cosmos" schtick.

You could argue that God wanted to "test" us, but this simply cannot be the case. The point of testing is to find out what one doesn't know, and God knows everything.
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Re: Tower of Babel = God hates us

#2

Post by Gman » Sat Apr 21, 2007 4:31 pm

Forge wrote:More to the point, there is nothing here to suggest that God saw pride, and precious little to say that humans were prideful themselves. The builder's quote is "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."
Forge, I would have to disagree with this statement here... Part of the verse says.. "so that we may make a name for ourselves." I don't see God being involved in this statement..
Forge wrote:The goal of the builder is, very clearly, to unite humanity, and not have humanity be scattered across the whole of the planet.
But isn't this God's goal too... No? I think part of the problem here is that when man unites without the leadership of God, disastrous problems can occur. Names like Adolph Hitler or Pol Pot come to mind here..
Forge wrote:The tower of Babel seems like little more than an extravagence, something to differentiate the city from the other cities of the world, similar to how "Statue of Liberty," "Leaning Tower," and "Pyramids" conjure images of the cities of New York, Piza, and Cairo, respectively.

God then says, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them."

This does not suggest in any way that God thinks we are being prideful. If anything, it suggests amazement and wonder. God is impressed, not angered or saddened or anything so negative.

So then he decides to scatter us, for no reason.
But then again the verse "then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them" seems to suggest a type of arrogance.. Earlier God wiped out mankind with a flood because of the evil of their hearts too.. Love and pride don't mix.. Pride needs to be eradicated if love is going to survive in this world.. God is just to destroy it... Likewise we have to destroy the pride within us too..
Forge wrote:Why would a God, who has just been impressed with us, decide to scatter us? The only realistic answers to this is either fear or maliciousness. Or, perhaps, a bit of pride on his own part. Humanity, in any event, is cramping his style. "nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them," says God. If God, a being of infinite power, is saying that humanity can do anything, then I'm thinking we were posing a considerable threat to his "Lord of All Cosmos" schtick.
No Forge, I wouldn't put it that way.. God hates pride not people... Isaiah 13:11 If something is unclear in scripture, usually it is cleared up in other verses..

"The undoing of Babel was cleverly explained by Zephaniah, whose terms certainly retraced this event, anticipating the great unification in the millennial kingdom, when everyone will speak one pure language and worship in God's holy mountain, being gathered from the nations into which they have been dispersed (Zeph. 3:9-11)."
Forge wrote:You could argue that God wanted to "test" us, but this simply cannot be the case. The point of testing is to find out what one doesn't know, and God knows everything.
A lot of it gets down to obedience..

Israel was also called out of Egypt to be God's theocracy. Israel was to be established as the unified people of God, known around the world. The one simple requirement of them was that they obey. If they would do so, God would establish them firmly. But if they lifted their heads in pride and rebelled against God, they too would be scattered across the face of the earth. As it turned out, Israel followed the same disastrous course as the Babylonians… Just like any other group of people.. Deut. 4:27

But then again, while God may split us apart when he sees problems.. He also unites.. Check out Acts 2: 6-12. The day of Pentecost was a complete reversal of the Tower of Babel... When man had the Holy Spirit dwell within them and therefore became united as one with God which permeates to all of mankind too.. :wink:

It all gets back to God... Acts 17:26 is pretty clear about this...

Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Tower of Babel = God hates us

#3

Post by Forge » Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:02 pm

I'll try those arguments out, then, Gman.

By the way:
Forge wrote:Anway, look. First quote is me, the following is the guy I'm debating. Help plz k thx.
I forgot to do the quote boxes, but the one arguing that God doesn't hate us is me, and the unquoted material is the other guy.

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Re: Tower of Babel = God hates us

#4

Post by Gman » Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:18 pm

Forge wrote:I'll try those arguments out, then, Gman.

By the way:
Forge wrote:Anway, look. First quote is me, the following is the guy I'm debating. Help plz k thx.
I forgot to do the quote boxes, but the one arguing that God doesn't hate us is me, and the unquoted material is the other guy.
Oh sorry about that Forge.. :oops:
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Tower of babel

#5

Post by madscientist » Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:17 pm

But what exactly was the tob suposed to mean? isnt it more like a metaphor for something?what exactly then happend? people's langaeg got confused, and they were unabke to build any more. or soemthibg like that. OK but if God hates the sin but not the sinner or soemthing in thsoe terms then isnt the sin and the sinner connected together? Yes he does hate our sin but loves us, but i think to the point the decision for heaven/hell arrives. if God only hated the sin and nit the sinner then we wundt burn in hell, would we? Or how can ETERNAL punishment be explained by INFINITE love? Shouldnt infinite love mean that even those who are "infinitely" evil still have INFINITE number of chances to return and be good? ALL Sins can be forgiven (except for 1 apparantly) but doesnt INFINITE suggest that one day we should ALL be in Heaven? Why would God not care about someone who has been doomed for hell? He still hears his wails etc...
This is also quite controversial, i think.. any ideas?
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#6

Post by FFC » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:07 pm

In my mind, God just saw what man was doing and the trouble that would come from it, and thwarted the plan. I believe that our soveriegn God has done this all through history and still does it today. Even with free will it is still God who ultimately calls all of the shots.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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