The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#31

Post by jenna » Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:20 am

Defining the Holy Spirit is kind of tough for me, but I will have a go at it. God the Father and God the Son are two separate beings. The Holy Spirit is not an actual being. Jesus lived by the Spirit of the Father dwelling within him. John 5:26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given to the Son to have life in Himself". With this eternal life (the Holy Spirit) dwelling within God's people, they can also become one with Christ and the Father. If the Holy Spirit were an actual being, it could not dwell within the hearts of all Christians at one time. So therefore it is a "power" of God that lets it be in us.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5308
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#32

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:51 am

jenwat3 wrote:Defining the Holy Spirit is kind of tough for me, but I will have a go at it. God the Father and God the Son are two separate beings. The Holy Spirit is not an actual being. Jesus lived by the Spirit of the Father dwelling within him. John 5:26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given to the Son to have life in Himself". With this eternal life (the Holy Spirit) dwelling within God's people, they can also become one with Christ and the Father. If the Holy Spirit were an actual being, it could not dwell within the hearts of all Christians at one time. So therefore it is a "power" of God that lets it be in us.
You do not believe that God is onmipresent?

Have you looked at the Discovery Course on our main Board?

You may want to take a look at this portion in particular and consider whether there is Biblical evidence that is worth examining in this area.

http://www.godandscience.org/discovery/chapter5.html
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#33

Post by jenna » Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:14 am

Yes, I believe that God is omnipresent. He is able to live in all of us through the power of the Holy Spirit that He gives us when we bocome Christians.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5308
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#34

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:20 am

jenwat3 wrote:Yes, I believe that God is omnipresent. He is able to live in all of us through the power of the Holy Spirit that He gives us when we bocome Christians.
Christians are not everywhere so I would respectfully question if your offered basis for explaining omnipresence by virture of an impersonal power (by your definition) as inadequate.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#35

Post by jenna » Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:21 am

Christians are not everywhere? Please explain this. Christians are all over the planet.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5308
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#36

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:28 am

jenwat3 wrote:Christians are not everywhere? Please explain this. Christians are all over the planet.
Omnipresent, by definition means at all places at all times.

Christians, even as a collective group are not at all places at all times. There are only so many Christians and they are finite and limited in the places they can be relative to this world and then there is an entire universe beyond that.

What does ominpresence mean to you? Are you using the term in the same way?
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#37

Post by jenna » Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:33 am

I guess I wasn't. I cannot fully explain how God can be everywhere at once, I'll admit that. But I still don't see how the trinity comes into play here. God lives in us through the Holy Spirit. As "born again" Christians, we now have the power of God in us. You said that God is omnipresent, I agree. But God and the Holy Spirit are not the same thing. The Holy Spirit isn't omnipresent, but God is.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5308
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#38

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Dec 26, 2007 8:46 am

jenwat3 wrote:I guess I wasn't. I cannot fully explain how God can be everywhere at once, I'll admit that. But I still don't see how the trinity comes into play here. God lives in us through the Holy Spirit. As "born again" Christians, we now have the power of God in us. You said that God is omnipresent, I agree. But God and the Holy Spirit are not the same thing. The Holy Spirit isn't omnipresent, but God is.
So if there were Scriptural proof that the Holy Spirit is Omnipresent would that be cause for you to rethink your position?
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#39

Post by jenna » Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:24 am

Throw em at me! :lol:
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5308
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#40

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:29 am

jenwat3 wrote:Throw em at me! :lol:
Psalm 139:7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?

8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, [a] you are there.

9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,

10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#41

Post by jenna » Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:33 am

Aww, man! Just one verse? I'll study up on it, though, and give you some of my own to study. You may also want to look at my other posts on the trinity. :ewink:
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5308
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#42

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:45 am

jenwat3 wrote:Aww, man! Just one verse? I'll study up on it, though, and give you some of my own to study. You may also want to look at my other posts on the trinity. :ewink:
I'm keeping it simple. One at a time. I've seen your posts.

Tell you what. I'm not pulling from a source on this. I'm just looking at the Scripture and letting it speak for itself. How about we both commit to not doing cut and pastes and just talking this through one passage at a time without hiding behind those. Fair enough?

I admit the Trinity is not purely logical and rational and there are things I cannot adequately understand let alone explain to another person's complete satisifaction. I'm very comfortable personally and spiritually seeing it as a Mystery wrapped around the person of God. As God is infinite and I'm finite, it is to be expected that I will hit limits in my understanding of Him, even on the basis of His revealed Word.

Rather than launching at the Trinity, let's just stick with the Holy Spirit. I believe the Holy Spirit is described as a person in the Scripture with attributes of God and Attributes of an independent entity. It's a mystery, but there's evidence of both.

There's my premise. I take the affirmative. You take the negative and let's see what we can learn together.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

User avatar
KrisW
Recognized Member
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:24 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Greensburg, PA, USA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#43

Post by KrisW » Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:48 am

Canuckster seems to have a good handle on this but I'll chime in....

2 Corinthians 3:17 suggest the Holy Spirit is omnipresent.
When fascism come to America it will be wearing black robes and carrying the scales of Justice("but don't touch the oil or the wine")

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#44

Post by jenna » Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:49 am

Sounds good to me! I don't cut and paste anyway, still haven't figured out how. But I'm ready and willing when you are! :ewink:
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5308
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#45

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:55 am

jenwat3 wrote:Sounds good to me! I don't cut and paste anyway, still haven't figured out how. But I'm ready and willing when you are! :ewink:
OK. I gave you a passage indicating that the Holy Spirit is omnipresent. Only God is omnipresent right? What does it mean if the Spirit is everywhere?

Either God is omnipresent and so is the Holy Spirit in which case they are one and the same or share that attribute or only one is omnipresent and the other is not.

We both agree that God is omnipresent. I believe omnipresence is an attribute that only God has. Would you agree?

So, if God is omnipresent, why does he need to send an impersonal force to accomplish His work? He's there already right?

Obviously there are other passages too. I can bring them in as we progress.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

Post Reply