The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#181

Post by B. W. » Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:44 pm

jenna wrote:Yes, I agree that Jesus is God. He is God the SON. Just as there is God the FATHER.
Hi Jenna do you agree with the below defintions posted belowFrom this Website:

The Trinity
God is more than a single person. He is not limited to a Triune God, but is a family and consist of many. The belief is that the Godhead is not a closed system in which all others are prevented from taking part. The purpose of man is for God to reproduce Himself in human beings so that they can eventually become gods themselves.

God
"The Word, then, is a Personage who was made flesh - begotten by God, who through this later begettal became his Father. So here we find revealed originally two Personages. One is God. But these two Personages were spirit, which is invisible to human eyes unless supernaturally manifested. Yet at the time described in verse one Jesus was not the Son of God and God was not his Father."
Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong

Jesus Christ
"Jesus was born to rule and reign as king over all nations of the earth. Nearly 2000 years ago, Jesus qualified to become this world's ruler by conquering Satan the evil one." "His human birth was the arrival of the `second Adam.' He had come to qualify, where the first Adam failed. And he came to be resurrected from the dead by God, making possible ETERNAL GOD-LIFE for the people of God."
Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong

The Holy Spirit
"The truth is - and it would shock millions to know - that the Holy Spirit is not a person. Rather, it is the agency by which God the Father works. The Holy Spirit is an agency, a force, a power that is used by the Highest - God the Father - to achieve his purpose. The Holy Spirit, we repeat, is not a person."
Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong

Man
"God wants everyone of us to eventually become like Him."
"Why should it seem strange that you will someday be the spirit-composed child of your heavenly Father? You will be what He is - God."
"God's PURPOSE in having created humanity - in having caused YOU to be born - is to reproduce Himself."
Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong

Salvation
"God will ultimately save most of mankind after Christ's return - not now." "Every human who ever lived will have an opportunity to receive salvation For most people that time will come after they have lived their entire lives, died and are brought back to life in a future resurrection."
Copyright © Herbert W. Armstrong
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#182

Post by jenna » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:31 pm

Ok, honest question, deserving honest answers. Before I answer, I wish to state that I do not wish to be banned for answering honestly. I will accept all questions, hopefully all will be honest questions, and not smart remarks. I will respect fully all others' points of view, and hopefully mine will also be respected.
This post is to K, Byblos, Canuckster, Bizzt, B.W., Judah, Gman, and Rich. I do wish to respond, and I am putting my position on this board in your hands before I answer. Please respond. Thank you.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#183

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:20 pm

jenna wrote:Ok, honest question, deserving honest answers. Before I answer, I wish to state that I do not wish to be banned for answering honestly. I will accept all questions, hopefully all will be honest questions, and not smart remarks. I will respect fully all others' points of view, and hopefully mine will also be respected.
This post is to K, Byblos, Canuckster, Bizzt, B.W., Judah, Gman, and Rich. I do wish to respond, and I am putting my position on this board in your hands before I answer. Please respond. Thank you.
Hi Jenna.

The board guidelines and purpose are there for all to read and adhere to. This board is open to public registration, but not all people are suited to this board. In this way it is really a private board of certain types of people although open to public reading and registration. If your position runs tangent to core Christian beliefs, and you continue pushing them, then you will some time or another be asked to find another board. Many well-intentioned Atheists, Agnostics, JWs, Mormons, Muslims and so forth have been quite polite when posting here and even when arguing for their beliefs and against Christian beliefs, however this board is moderated for a specific purpose and audience regardless of how polite a person is in presenting beliefs which run tangent.

So the question as I see is not so much whether you can post this particular post (and rarely do we make a judgment based on one post), but rather whether you in general clash with those essential Christian beliefs advocated by this board. So by all means post, but bear in mind you may not the type of person this board is for. Certainly much discussion is allowed to happen here on various issues, and many variously different opinions are debated, however when discussions by a person reveal a consistent agenda against essential Christians beliefs particularly surrounding Christ, or such a person seems continually hostile with their own beliefs and/or puts down those of others they disagree with, then such a person at the discretion of moderators will be asked to move onto one of the many other boards found on the Internet.

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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#184

Post by Gman » Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:23 pm

jenna wrote:Ok, honest question, deserving honest answers. Before I answer, I wish to state that I do not wish to be banned for answering honestly. I will accept all questions, hopefully all will be honest questions, and not smart remarks. I will respect fully all others' points of view, and hopefully mine will also be respected.
This post is to K, Byblos, Canuckster, Bizzt, B.W., Judah, Gman, and Rich. I do wish to respond, and I am putting my position on this board in your hands before I answer. Please respond. Thank you.
Hi Jenna,

It's ok to respond and we appreciate your honesty, it's just that we hope you take a hard look at the information presented to you here on this forum. Scripturally I think you can see why we hold our views on the Trinity. Anything else we believe is not on par with the word of God. Yes, it can be a confusing topic, but when you add all the pieces together, you will be able to comprehend the power of God.

That being said, you should probably know something more about me. I too at one time in my life did not believe in the Trinity and use to teach against it. It wasn't till later that God and others opened my eyes to the truth.. We here only wish also the same for you... :wave:
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#185

Post by B. W. » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:27 pm

jenna wrote:Ok, honest question, deserving honest answers. Before I answer, I wish to state that I do not wish to be banned for answering honestly. I will accept all questions, hopefully all will be honest questions, and not smart remarks. I will respect fully all others' points of view, and hopefully mine will also be respected. This post is to K, Byblos, Canuckster, Bizzt, B.W., Judah, Gman, and Rich. I do wish to respond, and I am putting my position on this board in your hands before I answer. Please respond. Thank you.
As I said in our PM be open and honest but be prepared to be challenged too. We respect you. If you read the other threads concerning the doctrine of the Trinity - avoid the same errors several posters made. If you like honest discussion then we can proceed. This is where the test comes in - can what we been taught line up with the bible?

Just a note: I first encountered Armstrongism during the mid 1980's while engaged in Street Ministry. Rather a mini revival occurred in the streets. We encountered Armstrong's ardent followers. At that time, we, the interdenominational group I was with, knew nothing of his teachings. We learned quickly by on the job training. Much of the WWCG has since changed since then and many members no longer teach Armstrong's points of view, however, some do.

From your mentioning 'Family' pertaining 'God' and the 'Trinity' — I have not heard this in years. Please note if you chose not to post — that is okay and we can move on to other things. If you do, all I can ask is to please listen to orthodox Christian Doctrine on the Trinity and compare this your own.
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#186

Post by Judah » Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:40 pm

Jenna, my response to your question mirrors that which K has written. I weigh everything here up against those Board Guidelines. They support orthodox Biblical Christianity, the message that the owner of the board wishes to uphold, and which I am entirely in agreement with as it happens. People with views at variance to those are welcome if they approach with an openness to exploring and considering the truth claims of these views... in other words, humble seeking and enquiring after truth, respect, and a willingness to debate within the boundaries of the guidelines. People who are not welcome are those who come just to tell us we are wrong and rubbish such views. It is a matter of attitude and purpose.

If you are not of the same persuasion in theological matters, and your purpose is to prosetylize for another cause, rather than to examine your beliefs to determine where does lie the truth, then maybe your time here has run out. You will need to consider your purpose for being here, your own learning needs, your attitude where your views conflict with Biblical orthodoxy, and all those kind of things. Good debate should be respectful, thoughtful, apply good reasoning and valid arguments, and be a worthwhile learning exercise for all to benefit. If you genuinely want to examine your views and learn from others here, then you have reason to stay. I don't really know you well enough to know where you are in relation to all that. I know we have had some fun conversations, especially with teasing one or two of the blokes here :dancing: , but on the serious side you do need to be mindful of your purpose here as well.

Er... that's my 2c worth.

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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#187

Post by Byblos » Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:47 am

jenna wrote:Ok, honest question, deserving honest answers. Before I answer, I wish to state that I do not wish to be banned for answering honestly. I will accept all questions, hopefully all will be honest questions, and not smart remarks. I will respect fully all others' points of view, and hopefully mine will also be respected.
This post is to K, Byblos, Canuckster, Bizzt, B.W., Judah, Gman, and Rich. I do wish to respond, and I am putting my position on this board in your hands before I answer. Please respond. Thank you.
Nothing to add, really. You know where we stand, let's see where you're at.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#188

Post by Byblos » Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:11 am

Jen, we're still waiting.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#189

Post by jenna » Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:54 am

Byblos wrote:Jen, we're still waiting.
The reason I have not responded to this is simply because I cannot share my views without being considered heretical on this board. I do believe what Mr. Armstrong taught, however, my main reason for coming here was not to push my beliefs on others. I state my beliefs and why I believe them. I'm not trying to change other's minds on their beliefs, merely stating why I believe what I do, and why. i feel that if I don't agree with others here, I get censored. Isn't this a board open to Christian beliefs? Why is it then that everything I post gets attacked in some way? I understand that it is not me personally that is being argued, but my views on things. However, no one here seems to realize that it is hard for me to separate the two. I feel I cannot openly express my views without being chastened in some way. That being said, God bless everyone here.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#190

Post by B. W. » Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:27 pm

jenna wrote:The reason I have not responded to this is simply because I cannot share my views without being considered heretical on this board. I do believe what Mr. Armstrong taught, however, my main reason for coming here was not to push my beliefs on others. I state my beliefs and why I believe them. I'm not trying to change other's minds on their beliefs, merely stating why I believe what I do, and why. i feel that if I don't agree with others here, I get censored. Isn't this a board open to Christian beliefs? Why is it then that everything I post gets attacked in some way? I understand that it is not me personally that is being argued, but my views on things. However, no one here seems to realize that it is hard for me to separate the two. I feel I cannot openly express my views without being chastened in some way. That being said, God bless everyone here.
Hi Jen we appreciate your candor. However, under Christ call we are called to contend for the faith — not be polite and let those known who have taught heretical anti-Christian doctrine have their say as what they say leads other astray.

Jude 1:3, “Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”

Mr. Herbert Armstrong was one of those who perverted the Christian faith, perverted grace as well, and promoted contrary teaching to supplant the fundamentals of the Christian faith with his own. He attempted to do so with the Doctrine of the Trinity in the 'Family' ideology which is more akin to ancient Greek Philosophy and pagan religious systems than with Orthodox Christian Doctrine on the Trinity.

We appreciate your sincerity but you must also understand that we do contend for the faith as peoples eternal state is at stake. There are others here that can expound more fully than I can, regarding Mr. Armstrong's teaching on his anti-Trinitarian 'Family of God' doctrine.

If you choose to proceed — several quick questions: Will you accept the truth of the bible over Mr. Armstrong? Is your love, faith, and devotion based solely on Mr. Herbert Armstrong or upon the real Jesus Christ? Would you be defending Mr. Armstrong or Christ?

No one here hates you. In fact we love you and our love is not afraid to chastise in the manner proscribed in:

Jude 1:23 “…save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.” ESV

2 Peter 3:17-18, “You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
” ESV

God's Love is not defined as tolerance. A mother loves her child is not tolerant if her child wants to dine on rat-poison nor is she tolerant of a child molester desiring to use her child. Love will fight to the death to protect her young. Love is not tolerance.

You quoted this passage form the book of John - are you referring to Christ Jesus or Mr. Armstrong? No one is persecuting you on this thread. We understand what rat poison can do and will contend for the life of the bride of Christ…

"If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you." John 15:18, 20
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#191

Post by Katabole » Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:05 am

One of the things I try to stress as a Christian on this forum and others I post at, is that the Christian faith has to be united in thought and judgement. When those who are looking for the truth come across a fractured Christian community, split into denominations, it will more often than not turn them away. This is what Paul says about unity:

1Cor 1:10, Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (KJV)

Scripture also claims that we should trust God and not any man or woman:

Pr 3:5,Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Jer 17:5, Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

The Holy Spirit according to the Bible is God.

John 4:24, God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

It couldn't be said any more simply, right from the mouth of Christ Himself. Jesus is saying that God is the (Holy) Spirit.

In the story of the Eunuch in Acts 8, it is the Spirit which speaks to Phillip. Not the mind of God, not the Father or the Son but the Spirit.

Acts 8:29,Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

The Holy Spirit was there in the beginning as well:

Gen 1:2, And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

To claim that the Holy Spirit is not God is not scriptural whatsoever. Stick to what the Word says and let the chips fall wherever they may. The reason why the Chrsitian world is so divided, is because Christian's do not stick to the written word. And Jesus clearly points out that human tradition makes void the Word. I do not believe that the Spirit is a person because it says that no where in scripture. The Spirit is simply God.

There are a lot of things I do not necessarily like about Christianity. But I accept it as being true, instead of what many have done and started their own denominations because they did not like or understand what was written or what was taught to them. Jesus not only says I tell you the truth but:

Jn 17:17,... thy word is truth.

It is written.
Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord but you know you gotta serve somebody. Bob Dylan

Every one that is of the truth hears my voice. Jesus from John 18:37

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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#192

Post by B. W. » Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:03 pm

If Jen does not want to bring her doctrine under the light of the bible - that is okay with me and we all can simply move on... We can respect her in this and there is no condemnation...

Now moving on --- In regards to unity of the faith - what unity do you speak of? - Agreement with Armstrongism, Jehovah Witnessness, Christdephiladelphian, Rev Moon, Mormonism, and a host of other views. Under the guise of unity do you mean we should all embrace the doctrines that each of these teach welcoming them as healthy alternatives to prove we that really have Christian love?

2 Peter 2:1-2 tells us to be aware of: “...false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.” ESV

Jude 1:4 also says, “For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”

Jesus speaks in Matthew 24:24, “For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.”

Midst this we are called to unity without any regard for what doctrine one brings in! Doing so is not demonstrating the unity of the faith but rather ignorance sprouting seeds and making hay of ones brains.

Cultic groups always make an appeal to unity of the faith and tolerance for all views in order to attack as well as falsely accuse Orthodox Christianity as the one being in error and that Orthodox Christianity is the sole lone cause of all division and strife caused within the Church.

We must never forget this — there are tares in the wheat. These will remain until the last day. Therefore we must contend for the faith and grow strong in the Lord.

Unity does not consist of disagreeing on the doctrines of water Baptism, predestination, what is faith of a mustard seed, how old is the earth, the Sabbath day Saturday [Note: Saturn was the god of agriculture and Saturday was named after this deity…See link Satrun, Dietary laws, etc.. as there are many members of Christ Body with varied views on these matters. But there are also cancers as well that bring into the body of Christ doctrines that exchange the grace of salvation into works, denying who Christ is and change what he taught, and thus neglect the word of God for what it says. These we must expose and not be afraid of being called names doing so.

It is not Orthodox Christianity that brings division and disunity — it is the tares. These tares keep us on our toes as well as are used by God to force Christians to examine what they believe, refine, and perfect faith in Christ.

I would much prefer on teaching on the love of God and Christ Love for his people that we are to share amongst one another but even this doctrine can be cheapened by cancerous tares and taught as tolerance and not as true Godly love.

Unity for the sake of tolerance is not wise. Unity because of Christ is another matter. Is there disunity in the Church? Yes! Is it because of Orthodox Christianity? The answer is a resounding NO! There is disunity in the Church because of sin, destructive heresy, and very few that understand the role Christ plays in the Church to unite a local assembly in true Godly love for one another before reaching into the community at large.

So I'll end with this — Katabole forget about me: Look in your local assembly will you lay down your life for the people sitting next to you and in back or in front of you? Would you pour out your bank account to help one member in your church who has great need? Would they do the same for you if you had same need? Some places do this on a limited scale but none of us, including myself, if we are honest would really lay down our lives for our friends — enemy maybe — friend no.

Our local assemblies are scattered, fragmented, individualized and there is your disunity of the faith. The question is for each of us who reads this as well as for me who writes: What will it take to be made perfect in Love? My how far from this we have all fallen…

It is not so much loving other brothers and sisters in other Churches far away that brings unity. All that takes is mere words and no honest effort. It is in your own local assembly where fellow members are called to love each other is where unity truly begins. There it is either put up or shut up. I am sad to report it is easier to shut up but the Lord will prevail…Pray that God the Father will reveal his love to you… begin there …

Is your local assembly founded on Christian Orthodox faith or is it founded on the disunity of the tares? Another reason for disunity is false doctrine that tries to supplant the doctrines Christ and that the Apostles taught and left in the bible. In a nutshell - these consisted of the following: the elementary doctrine of Christ and salvation, repentance from dead works, faith toward God, eternal judgment, and the resurrection of the dead. [Hebrews 6:1-3]

1 Timothy 6:3-4, “If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, 4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, 5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. “

Titus 1:9, “He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.”

Ephesians 4:14-15, “…so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ…
”

Cults do not want to speak in love instead they produce quarrels about word meanings, which produce envy, dissension, they slander true Doctrine, create evil suspicion, cause constant friction among people by twisting their minds to be deprived of the real truth taught by Christ, and envision that preaching godliness is a means of great monetary gain as well as fame and one-upmanship.
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#193

Post by Katabole » Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:10 am

Hi BW.

You wrote,

Now moving on --- In regards to unity of the faith - what unity do you speak of? - Agreement with Armstrongism, Jehovah Witnessness, Christdephiladelphian, Rev Moon, Mormonism, and a host of other views. Under the guise of unity do you mean we should all embrace the doctrines that each of these teach welcoming them as healthy alternatives to prove we that really have Christian love?

The unity I speak of consists of Christians that read and understand their Bible. Unfortunately, many Christian denominations read modern English Bibles with translations from older English Bibles or Bibles translated from Latin which just causes confusion. I use a KJV exclusively because it is closest in translation to the original Hebrew, Chaldee and Greek manuscripts. And it does have errors, which were origianlly detailed in a letter by the priests who copied the 1611 version but the letter was never reprinted. I make it a point of not discussing other faiths, except personally the Catholic faith, because I used to be a Catholic. Studying the Bible chapter by chapter and verse by verse and understanding it using a good concordance and a Bible dictionary can easily put away the false teachings of other denominations and should explain that the Christian faith should be non-denominational, just as Paul in 1Cor 1:10, expected it to be. But as for the one's you mentioned, I don't agree with their teachings. A study of the churches in Revelation shows that of the seven churches mentioned, five of them, a majority, Christ had a problem with. Two of them, a minority, He didn't have any problem with because they taught the same piece of information. That echoes what is happening today because only a minority of Christian churches teach the truth correctly. Yes, as Revelation clearly points out the other churches did do good things and had some members which weren't deceived by their teachings but what those churches did wrong, overshadowed what they did right.

You also wrote:

So I'll end with this — Katabole forget about me: Look in your local assembly will you lay down your life for the people sitting next to you and in back or in front of you? Would you pour out your bank account to help one member in your church who has great need? Would they do the same for you if you had same need? Some places do this on a limited scale but none of us, including myself, if we are honest would really lay down our lives for our friends — enemy maybe — friend no.

For the last 17 years, I have worked as a councellor for developmentally handicapped clients. Every day I go to work, I take the risk of being injured by those who don't know the difference. And I would like to think that my presence in their lives has only made it better. Yes, I think I would lay down my life for them or any member of my family, no questions asked, if something like that arose. An enemy is not the same (as Jesus points out in the parable of the good Samaritan) as a neighbour. Yes, Jesus said love your enemy. But I read no where that he expected us to put up with and tolerate our enemy's doctrine or let them destroy us without defending ourselves.

As for my church, it has been accused of being a cult on numerous occasions and there are many internet websites that blatantly accuse it of being such. After reading many of those websites, they are only written by the Biblically illiterate and the ignorant, who never actually sat down and listened to a broadcast and who are too terrified to imagine, that the Bible lays waste the human traditions, that were taught to them and they believe in their churches. A cult does not allow it's members to question it's doctrine. Our church has a daily, one hour Bible broadcast and the last 20 minutes of each show consist of questions from it's members. Our church is also the largest independent, non-denominational church in the world. It is broadcast on over 325 television stations and this spring will begin broadcasting through Europe and is available worldwide on shortwave. It receives over 3000 phone calls a week, which results in a an average of a thousand new members, every week. Our church does not ask for money and the only things it offers are tools that readers can use, to understand the Bible better. It teaches the Bible chapter by chapter and verse by verse and that is how it convinces people to join. Hopefully after they join, they can put what they've learned to work and do the work of faith, because faith without work is dead faith.

You also wrote,

We must never forget this — there are tares in the wheat. These will remain until the last day. Therefore we must contend for the faith and grow strong in the Lord.

It is not Orthodox Christianity that brings division and disunity — it is the tares. These tares keep us on our toes as well as are used by God to force Christians to examine what they believe, refine, and perfect faith in Christ.

I am interested to know. Who do you believe the tares in Matthew 13 actually are? Do you believe they are Christians?

Peace

Ron
Well it may be the devil or it may be the Lord but you know you gotta serve somebody. Bob Dylan

Every one that is of the truth hears my voice. Jesus from John 18:37

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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#194

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:39 am

Katabole wrote:
The unity I speak of consists of Christians that read and understand their Bible. Unfortunately, many Christian denominations read modern English Bibles with translations from older English Bibles or Bibles translated from Latin which just causes confusion. I use a KJV exclusively because it is closest in translation to the original Hebrew, Chaldee and Greek manuscripts.
Ron,

I love the KJV, but respectfully, your comment with regard to the original manuscripts is simply wrong by any standard that you care to examine it by.

The KJV is based upon a group of manuscripts known as the Textus Receptus. Since the time that it was used in the 17th century, there have been several factors that make the KJV less reliable for use as a primary study Bible which include but are not limited to:

1. The discovery of many older manuscripts since that time.

2. A better understanding of the textual traditions represented which allows for there to be a weighting of importance of the manuscripts available on a basis other than just a majority of extant ones which is the method used in the KJV.

3. A considerable change in the English language itself since 1611 which requires additional consideration in understanding not only the original languages but also then to translate the translation itself which is unnecessarily complicated.

Most English Bibles in use in Churches today are not what you describe as translations from Latin or revisions of previous translations. They are direct translations from the best available manuscripts. The NIV and NASB fall into that category.

I grew up on the KJV. As I said, I love it and still use it. I don't hold it above other translations however and I don't use it for primary study.

I think you may want to reconsider your position, or at least how you are putting it forward here as the generalizations you're making are simply not accurate.

Regards,

Bart
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#195

Post by B. W. » Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:24 pm

Katabole wrote:...For the last 17 years, I have worked as a counselor for developmentally handicapped clients. Every day I go to work, I take the risk of being injured by those who don't know the difference. And I would like to think that my presence in their lives has only made it better. Yes, I think I would lay down my life for them or any member of my family, no questions asked, if something like that arose. An enemy is not the same (as Jesus points out in the parable of the good Samaritan) as a neighbour. Yes, Jesus said love your enemy. But I read no where that he expected us to put up with and tolerate our enemy's doctrine or let them destroy us without defending ourselves.
We have something in common. I am a Social Worker and work with the DD population and TBI. I am also, with my past experience working in Criminal Justice Field — I still work with some rather hard core unsavory individuals too.

Please do not misunderstand me regarding Churches. I was not singling out your church but rather pointing out all church members in all our local assemblies where ever they are have a need to get it together and actually live what the book of 1 John teaches. This cannot be done by works of the flesh and self effort but rather by the Spirit of God. This move is now actually here awaking people to recognize the need to live as Christians. Some people have caught on, others lag behind, still others are only now hearing it, and others ignore it. Feel free to send a private email and let me know what Church you belong too.
Katabole wrote:...I am interested to know. Who do you believe the tares in Matthew 13 actually are? Do you believe they are Christians?
As for the tares — no they were sent by the evil one as it is written

Matthew 13:37-41, “He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity…” KJV

Let me explian why I used an example of tares -- I used the illustration of the tares to show how the Lord will let both grow together with the purpose to make the wheat stronger and cause wheat's roots to tap deeper into the will of God. I am not an agricultural expert by no means so I do not know if Wheat's roots grow deeper amongst tares but I did hear that wheat will increase its yield in order to replace the tares.
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