The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

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BavarianWheels
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#151

Post by BavarianWheels » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:41 pm

jenna wrote:Notice that Jesus said "when you see Me you have seen the Father". He did not say "the Father and the holy Spirit". Why leave it out if it is part of a trinity?
True. My mother also used to tell me that I was the exact image of my own father...along with most people I meet. Yet I do have a mother of which I carry some characteristics of too.
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#152

Post by Canuckster1127 » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:50 pm

jenna wrote:
BavarianWheels wrote:
jenna wrote:Right. So when you say "our" or "us", you mean your family. Same with God and Jesus. Us and our means one family, with more than one being.
True...but the family consists of more than one family...my sisters married some guys from outside "our" family...

All I'm trying to say is that "our" and "us" does not exclusively mean just 2 in number.
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Notice that Jesus said "when you see Me you have seen the Father". He did not say "the Father and the holy Spirit". Why leave it out if it is part of a trinity?
The Trinity states that the fullness of God dwells in all 3 members or expressions. When you see Jesus you see the totality of God, including the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Arguing from the absence of a reference is a logical fallacy.

The entire Trinity is present at the Baptism of Jesus, if you'll recall. Jesus is being baptized, the Holy Spirit is descending as a dove and a voice from Heaven speaks, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him." Why did God inspire His word to make that reference (which is a positive statement of fact) to demonstrate the presence and work of all 3 members of the Godhead if there were only 2 and they were just family members and not fully God resident in both?
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#153

Post by jenna » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:24 pm

Because at baptism you DO need the Holy spirit. Notice that this was the ONLY time Jesus referenced all three. You need Jesus, since He died for our sins, you need God to repent to, and you also need God to give you the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the MIND OF GOD, and once you repent, receive Jesus, and are baptized, your receive the Holy Spirit, or the mind, or power, of God.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#154

Post by BavarianWheels » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:53 pm

jenna wrote:Because at baptism you DO need the Holy spirit. Notice that this was the ONLY time Jesus referenced all three. You need Jesus, since He died for our sins, you need God to repent to, and you also need God to give you the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the MIND OF GOD, and once you repent, receive Jesus, and are baptized, your receive the Holy Spirit, or the mind, or power, of God.
It seems to me you're arguing against yourself here. If the HS is the "Mind of God"...then that would mean the HS is part of the Trinity. Kind of a Right-Hand-Man, so to speak.

Please explain the HS being the "Mind of God" to me as I'd rather not speculate what you're driving at.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we need the HS daily...and not just at baptism?
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#155

Post by jenna » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:56 pm

Yes we need the Holy Spirit daily. And it is given to us at baptism. You have a mind. Is it a separate being?
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#156

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:36 am

jenna wrote:Because at baptism you DO need the Holy spirit. Notice that this was the ONLY time Jesus referenced all three. You need Jesus, since He died for our sins, you need God to repent to, and you also need God to give you the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the MIND OF GOD, and once you repent, receive Jesus, and are baptized, your receive the Holy Spirit, or the mind, or power, of God.
This wasn't Jesus referencing all three. This was all three manifested and present at the same time.

Think about that.
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#157

Post by jenna » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:38 am

I have thought about that. It is true that all three were present and manifested, but the only reason for that was so that God could make His people known. God Himself manifested His power so that others would know to whom it was given.
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#158

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:13 am

jenna wrote:I have thought about that. It is true that all three were present and manifested, but the only reason for that was so that God could make His people known. God Himself manifested His power so that others would know to whom it was given.
I think you're rationalizing here. Think about it. All three present and manifested at the same. That's a lot more powerful a statement in terms of the God head and the Holy Spirit as a separate entity within it, than arguing from the lack of reference in one place, isn't it?

Without raising another issue to divert or deflect attention from this extraordinary narrative of a historical event, what does that say?
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#159

Post by jenna » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:20 am

Again, it tells me that God allowed it to be manifested so people would know to whom He gave His Holy Spirit. Also, not to start another thread here, but to make a point. We are made in God's image. We also have a "spirit". Is our spirit a separate being? No. And since we are made in His image, how could God's spirit be a separate being? And of course I'm rationalizing! If I wasn't then I could be considered insane, (which many here think I am anyway). :ebiggrin:
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#160

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:24 am

jenna wrote:Again, it tells me that God allowed it to be manifested so people would know to whom He gave His Holy Spirit. Also, not to start another thread here, but to make a point. We are made in God's image. We also have a "spirit". Is our spirit a separate being? No. And since we are made in His image, how could God's spirit be a separate being? And of course I'm rationalizing! If I wasn't then I could be considered insane, (which many here think I am anyway). :ebiggrin:
Does your spirit detach and manifest physically outside of you?

Do you reflect God's image or does God's image reflect yours?

Does God possess characteristic that you don't?
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#161

Post by jenna » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:31 am

Does my spirit detach and manifest physically outside of me? No.
Do I reflect God's image or does my image reflect God's? I am made in God's image. Hopefully my image, or character, reflects His.
Does God possess characteristics that I don't? Of course, never claimed otherwise.
I'm not really sure where you are going with this... :econfused:
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#162

Post by Canuckster1127 » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:41 am

jenna wrote:Does my spirit detach and manifest physically outside of me? No.
Do I reflect God's image or does my image reflect God's? I am made in God's image. Hopefully my image, or character, reflects His.
Does God possess characteristics that I don't? Of course, never claimed otherwise.
I'm not really sure where you are going with this... :econfused:
You made an appeal to our spirit in relationship to our being, to illustrate your statement as to what the Holy Spirit is. I was asking you questions to help you see how that appeal is illogical.

1. We reflect God's image, He doesn't reflect ours.

2. God has Characterists we don't possess and we don't reflect. These are called immutable, or unshared characteristics. We aren't omniscient or all-knowing. We aren't omnipresent, or present everywhere for example. Therefore, appealing to what we know of ourselves and the relationship in our being of Spirit, Soul and Body and applying that to God is in effect implying that God is created in our image, not us in His.

I notice that there seems to be a pattern in our discussions of bouncing from point to point without resolving the original point made.

Our purpose as a board is to stand as a Christian board open to believers or honest seekers. Are you sincerely seeking and here to discuss and stay on point or are you here to declare your beliefs and the beliefs of your Church and defend them against any detractors?
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#163

Post by jenna » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:47 am

Yes, I am seeking answers. I don't think I defend my beliefs any more than what others do. I am here to discuss and stay on point as much as others are.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#164

Post by Gman » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:53 pm

jenna wrote:Yes, I am seeking answers. I don't think I defend my beliefs any more than what others do. I am here to discuss and stay on point as much as others are.
Jenna,

The point I think we are trying to make is that not only was Jesus "the son of God" but he can also be God as well. By default, we mortals can ALSO be called the sons of God, Roman 8:14. Are you implying that Jesus was merely a second adam and only a son of God like us? Why would we bow to him then (as the scriptures say) if he was like us?
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

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Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#165

Post by jenna » Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:03 am

Yes, I agree that Jesus is God. He is God the SON. Just as there is God the FATHER.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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