The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

[FFC]

Hi all,

Just a comment or two. The trinity is very hard for some to accept. They keep thinking of the three parts as things. It is our perception that is the problem. Since we are of the flesh we think in physical terms that limit our understanding. For instance if we go to the ocean and fill a bucket with the water and place it on the beach is the water in the bucket part of the ocean? It sure is. But in some way it is not, the physical separation can lead one to conclude that it was but now it is not. I tend to view God as a mist with infinite supernatural powers. How God manifest itself to be viewed by His creation is not our business. These powers are beyond us and if we get stuck trying to place them in our world then we have admitted to being bound to the flesh. You cannot use God's creation to define God. That is like taking a book and using it to define the writer. You may get a partial view but that is all. It is faith that trancends the world and it is faith that we were called to by Christ.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree here. God wants us to understand Him, not leave us in the dark. This is why He plainly tells us to "prove all things".

This is true, Jenna, but there are also some things that are left to faith...actually most things...it's just that we in our pride we would love to think we have it all figured out. I know I don't, but I also know it doesn't matter if I do or not, as long as I know the crucified Christ and that He loved me and gave His life for me.

[jenna]

Yes, many things must be left to faith, since no one can understand everything. However, this doesn't help answer any questions I posted. Surely someone can answer them?

[zoegirl]

I actually think it DOES address most of your questions, considering the description that each person/being of the trinity accomplishes separate deeds and as such, fulfills separates wills. And therefore can accomplish incarnation, the wrath of God the father on Christ His Son as He accepted our consequence for sin, the resusrrection of one person of the trinity, the indwelling of believers. Each accomplishes what they will in their proper time and manner.

The rest of these questions from this article still arises from the idea that we do not understand the idea of three persons in one God. And because of the limited understanding, questions are asked based on this lack of understanding. Frank addresses this. We are so limited in our understanding, we propose questions that focus on God as if HE were subject to OUR rules of time and dimension and existence. How bizarre! to think of Christ and God being part of the same GOd and yet talking about them as if the have separate wills and places in separate dimensions (Sitting at the right hand of God, for instance)

But God is first and foremost outside our dimensions of time and space and HE alone is God. Whether or not the *mechanism* of this doctrine escapes our understanding should not be our priority, or perhaps more accurately, the reason we reject a doctrine, rather the scriptural validity of this doctrine should be the priority. There are plenty of things that we accept that are beyond our understanding. God's mechanism of creation, HIs indwelling of believers such that we are a "new creation", good grief resurrection!, incarnation (that will make a person stay up at night!). But if you are willing to accept such novel and crazy doctrines that God can dwell in a man without losing either nature, 100% man and 100% God, then the questions regarding the locations and operations of separate persons within one God shouldn't be so onerous.

To use questions such as these to dismiss the trinity seems rather choosy when you could pick ANY of the above doctrine and ask similar questions. In other words, if questions such as the above are the criteria for rejecting a doctrine, then the incarnation, regeneration of believers, the resurrection, and countless others are in peril. HOw can God indwell physically in us so that we are a new creation? Who can figure out this miechanism of regeneration? Do you see my point?

Especially, to be honest, since I think God HAS allowed us to understand Him....at least to the best of our capabilites! The wealth of versus that Rich and others has provided shows us the nature of God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each has been accorded the rights of an actual being and a being that is worthy of worhsip. Each has been accorded the properties and characteristics of a being.

[frankbaginski]

Job 37:5 God thundereth marvelously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend.

Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Ecc 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot, find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labor to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.

The Bible has many references to the limits of man. The entire universe is but a subset of a greater reality.

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

I am not sure in what context we are commanded to prove all things but we are told to prove prophesy before we accept it. The proof is in the waiting to see if it comes true. Since many verses say we cannot know all, then the command to prove must be limited to the knowable. This is not inconsistant with scripture.

[jenna]

How bizarre to think of Christ and God being part of the same family and yet talking about them as if they have separate wills and places in separate dimensions? Leave out the "separate dimensions", and you have the words of Christ, not my words. They do have separate wills, and they can be in different places. Note Psalms 110:1. "The Lord said to My Lord, "Sit You at MY RIGHT HAND"... Also, John 5:30. "I do not seek My own will, but the will of the Father which sent me". While it is true that no man, myself included, can ever understand all the things of God, we should definitely strive to know the things that are possible to know. And if one wants to believe in the trinity, they need to do some definite research and study thoroughly the bible, since nowhere in it is the trinity ever even mentioned. Yes, some will say that it is mentioned in 1John 5:7, but if they dig a little deeper, they will see that a good bit of this verse was not found in the original manuscripts. Therefore it must have been added by man sometime after it was written. Also, some other questions. If the Holy Spirit were an actual part of the Godhead, why is it that in several passages, Jesus Himself said "I and My Father are one". Would He not have said "I and My Father and the Holy Spirit are One"? In John 14:7, 9, 10. All here speaks of the Father and Jesus. No mention of the Holy Spirit being within the God Family. Why is this?

[Canuckster1127]

How bizarre to think of Christ and God being part of the same family and yet talking about them as if they have separate wills and places in separate dimensions? Leave out the "separate dimensions", and you have the words of Christ, not my words. They do have separate wills, and they can be in different places. Note Psalms 110:1. "The Lord said to My Lord, "Sit You at MY RIGHT HAND"... Also, John 5:30. "I do not seek My own will, but the will of the Father which sent me". While it is true that no man, myself included, can ever understand all the things of God, we should definitely strive to know the things that are possible to know. And if one wants to believe in the trinity, they need to do some definite research and study thoroughly the bible, since nowhere in it is the trinity ever even mentioned. Yes, some will say that it is mentioned in 1John 5:7, but if they dig a little deeper, they will see that a good bit of this verse was not found in the original manuscripts. Therefore it must have been added by man sometime after it was written. Also, some other questions. If the Holy Spirit were an actual part of the Godhead, why is it that in several passages, Jesus Himself said "I and My Father are one". Would He not have said "I and My Father and the Holy Spirit are One"? In John 14:7, 9, 10. All here speaks of the Father and Jesus. No mention of the Holy Spirit being within the God Family. Why is this?

I think you're approaching it a bit backwards.

You're appealing to logic, and yet logic only allows us to judge if something is internally consistent. What you are calling "illogical" is what most of us are calling a mystery stating up from that from a purely naturalistic, materialist point of view, it doesn't add up.

The real question here I think is, What Do the Scriptures Say? That's the foundation upon which any system of beliefs are built.

You've been given multiple verses that support the personalities of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yet, respectfully, I don't see you addressing them. You're coming back asking about "logic."

I can make it easy. The logical consistency you're asking for in this regard is not there. That's what we're admitting when we state there is an element of mystery. It's what we mean when we say that as finite creatures we can't fully grasp the infinite.

The issue is What Do the Scriptures Say? You start there and draw your conclusions THEN you apply logic basewd upon your premises. You don't start with your premises and then force Scripture into them.

Now, have you come to any comclusions based on the Scriptures you've been given?

[jenna]

Actually yes, I have come to my conclusions about the scriptures. In Exodus 8:10, and 9:14, Deut. 4:35 and 39, 32:39, and 33:26, 2Sam. 7:22. All these verses are referring to false idol worship. In all the rest the term "one God", or "God alone", or speaking of there being "One God", the proper term would be "elohim" which means "family". Therefore it would be saying "one God FAMILY". I agree that scripture should be the foundations on which beliefs are built. You say I should start there, then draw my conclusions. I agree. That is what I have been doing. Every single question I have can be baked up by scripture. I try to base my beliefs on what the scriptures are telling me, that is why when I have a question I read up on it, then if I still don't understand I bring it here, so maybe someone can explain it to me.

[B. W.]

Hi all,

Before everyone begins on this again it would be good for you all to read the Locked thread about the Trinity before proceeding see This Thread for more info on the Trinity

The Old Testament is filled with illustrations on the Trinity.

There is none like God the bible declares. God is one yet three persons fulfilling this statement about God being like no other. For God to be a singular blob of deity reduces God to be like every other singular deity concocted by human beings. This is a violation of the first two of the Ten Commandments.

Those that do this will be punished and please note the historical record of the Jewish people and then correlate this to the traditional world view of the oneness of God currently held by the Jewish traditions. That alone should reveal something to you as to why things happened to them historically. God is like no other god. The Jewish people are still his chosen people. God will come back for them and they will look upon Him, the one whom they pierced. This is another topic — so let me stay on topic and say…

All living things are made up of three distinct individual attributes. The human body contains skin, bones, organs, tissues. It also has fluids: blood, various body fluids. This Fluid is not solid like the body. Then next is the life, personality that makes a person a human being capable of reason, etc. Three agree and make one - one.

You have a tree with its bark, its leaves, and its sap and again - three agree and make one a one. Even a blade of grass has three that agree and make one!

Romans 1:19-21, “For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.” ESV

God is unlike all other gods out there in the world. There is none like the Lord -- One yet three that make one — one. Not three Gods but one God. Why cannot His divine nature, one essense, be three that make one?
-
-
-

[jenna]

"God is unlike all other gods in the world'?" There is only ONE God family, which is made up of God the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit is not an actual "being". And there are no other gods in the world. Unless you want to count Satan as the "god" of this world?

[frankbaginski]

Jen,

Maybe a different view would be helpful. I have a few voices in my head that argue about what I will do concerning all major decisions in my life. Now I know that humans are created in God's image so let us assume for the moment that we are a very limited subset of Him. So He may have thousands or more various voices that are part of Him. Just maybe some of these can actually manifest themselves for us to see. I would hope you don't think of your conscience as somebody else but of yourself. Maybe this is what God is all about but much more in power and ability.

[jenna]

I can understand in a sense what you are saying, Frank. The "voices" in your head is your "spirit talking. The Holy spirit is God's way of connecting to us. This does not make it an actual "being", though. Yes, it may have many attributes, such as a comforter, etc. This merely describes what it DOES, not what it IS.

[Canuckster1127]

I can understand in a sense what you are saying, Frank. The "voices" in your head is your "spirit talking. The Holy spirit is God's way of connecting to us. This does not make it an actual "being", though. Yes, it may have many attributes, such as a comforter, etc. This merely describes what it DOES, not what it IS.

You refer to the Holy Spirit as an "it." The Bible refers to the Holy Spirit as a "he." The greek language is much more expressive than English in terms of its ability to identify gender. How do you explain your contradiction in this regard?

[jenna]

That is simple. There are other times in the bible that the earth is referred to as "she". So is the moon. Does it necessarily mean that they are female? Of course not. This is not contradictory, but simply a way of expression.

[FFC]

That is simple. There are other times in the bible that the earth is referred to as "she". So is the moon. Does it necessarily mean that they are female? Of course not. This is not contradictory, but simply a way of expression.

Lots or things are described as she...boats, cars, and others I can't think of right now...but not many things are described as he, unless "it" is male in gender.

[jenna]

So then why is no NAME ever specifically mentioned? god has a name, Jesus had a name, even the angels had names. Michael, Gabriel, Lucifer, Satan, etc. Every actual being in the bible has a given name. Why leave out the Holy Spirit if it is an actual being?