The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

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Acronym
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The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#1

Post by Acronym » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:38 pm

In regards to the trinity, primarily a catholic-based teaching, I don't understand how it can be taught that Jesus is God incarnate. I have never found any real evidence in scripture that indicates this, yet it continues to be taught as the christian standard.

How can Christ be the same God when he states in scripture that there is a separation?

Matthew 4:1 - Then was Yahshua led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil

James 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man

Luke 4:5-7 - And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine

Why would satan tempt the Almighty by offering him a world that he already owns?

1 Corinthians 6:17 - But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

If those of us joined to the Lord are ONE with Him, does that make us Him?

Matthew 19:16-17 - Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

This seems another indication of separate beings.

John 14:28 - "You have heard me say to you, I am going away and coming back to you. If you loved me, you would rejoice because I said, I am going to the Father, for my FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."

Matthew 24:36 - But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

Interesting to note that in the above passage (matthew 24:36), some translations do add "neither the Son". I'm not sure which is more accurate in that translation though, as some of the greek texts show the son while some don't. Either way, Jesus seems to be indicating not even he knows when he says "My Father only", and He never gives himself the title of The Father.

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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#2

Post by YLTYLT » Sat Mar 10, 2007 3:26 pm

Acronym wrote: Matthew 4:1 - Then was Yahshua led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil

James 1:13 - Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man

Luke 4:5-7 - And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine

Why would satan tempt the Almighty by offering him a world that he already owns?
I think this may be a confusiion on how the word tempted can be used in English.

You may try to tempt me to do something, so in a sense you could say
"I was tempted by you."

But normally this phrase in English means that your tempts caused that action that you were attempting.

Now Satan did Tempt Jesus, but Jesus was not tempted. Or Satans words did not cause Jesus to be tempted into the action that Satan's desired.

The English language is kind of crazy that way.....


This is also further indication that Jesus was fully man and yet also fully God.

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#3

Post by Acronym » Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:10 pm

Ok, I can understand that, I agree that the english language may not be clear in certain things. On the other hand, how does that indicate Jesus was fully God?

And what of the other verses that indicate there is a distinct separation?

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#4

Post by bizzt » Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:16 am

Because there was a distinct Difference. Jesus was a Man however he was also Divine. Why do you think the Phraisees and Saducees always wanted to Stone Jesus? Because he made himself Like God. So was Jesus a Liar. Did he lie to them saying he was God but really he wasn't?

Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Also like Byblos said in another Thread you can go here
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/index.html for more information

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#5

Post by Acronym » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:09 pm

Yes he was divine, but that does not make him the one Almighty. The pharisees and Saducees held much power, and he was a threat. He flat out told them they were wrong, and men of power were not willing to hear that.

"Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

Please keep reading past that verse and you'll get the meaning.

34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

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#6

Post by bizzt » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:57 pm

Acronym wrote:Yes he was divine, but that does not make him the one Almighty. The pharisees and Saducees held much power, and he was a threat. He flat out told them they were wrong, and men of power were not willing to hear that.

"Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

Please keep reading past that verse and you'll get the meaning.

34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
Barnes does a good job at getting the point across
Joh 10:34-38 -
Jesus answered them - The answer of Jesus consists of two parts. The first Joh_10:34-36 shows that they ought not to object to his use of the word God, even if he were no more than a man. The second Joh_10:37-38 repeats substantially what he had before said, left the same impression, and in proof of it he appealed to his works.
Joh_10:34
In your law - Psa_82:6. The word “law” here, is used to include the Old Testament.
I said - The Psalmist said, or God said by the Psalmist.
Ye are gods - This was said of magistrates on account of the dignity and honor of their office, and it shows that the Hebrew word translated “god,” אלהים ̀elohiym, in that place might be applied to man. Such a use of the word is, however, rare. See instances in Exo_7:1; Exo_4:16.
Joh_10:35
Unto whom the word of God came - That is, who were his servants, or who received their dignity and honor only because the law of God was intrusted to them. “The Word of God” here means the command of God; his commission to them to do justice.
The scripture cannot be broken - See Mat_5:19. The authority of the Scripture is final; it cannot be set aside. The meaning is, “If, therefore, the Scripture uses the word “god” אלהים ̀elohiym as applied to magistrates, it settles the question that it is right to apply the term to those in office and authority. If applied to them, it may be to others in similar offices. It cannot, therefore, be blasphemy to use this word as applicable to a personage so much more exalted than mere magistrates as the Messiah.”
Joh_10:36
Whom the Father hath sanctified - The word “sanctify” with us means to make holy; but this is not its meaning here, for the Son of God was always holy. The original word means to set apart from a common to a sacred use; to devote to a sacred purpose, and to designate or consecrate to a holy office. This is the meaning here. God has consecrated or appointed his Son to be his Messenger or Messiah to mankind. See Exo_28:41; Exo_29:1, Exo_29:44; Lev_8:30.
And sent into the world - As the Messiah, an office far more exalted than that of magistrates.
I am the Son of God - This the Jews evidently understood as the same as saying that he was equal with God. This expression he had often applied to himself. The meaning of this place may be thus expressed: “You charge me with blasphemy. The foundation of that charge is the use of the name God, or the Son of God, applied to myself; yet that same term is applied in the Scriptures to magistrates. The use of it there shows that it is right to apply it to those who sustain important offices (see the notes of Joh_10:34-35). And especially you, Jews, ought not to attempt to found a charge of blasphemy on the application of a word to the Messiah which in your own Scriptures is applied to all magistrates. And we may remark here:
1. That Jesus did not deny that he meant to apply the term to himself.
2. He did not deny that it was properly applied to him.
3. He did not deny that it implied that he was God. He affirmed only that they were inconsistent, and were not authorized to bring a charge of blasphemy for the application of the name to himself.
Joh_10:37
The works of my Father - The very works that my Father does. See Joh_5:17; “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.” See the note on that place. The works of his Father are those which God only can do. As Jesus did them, it shows that the name “Son of God,” implying equality with God, was properly applied to him. This shows conclusively that he meant to be understood as claiming to be equal with God. So the Jews naturally understood him Joh_10:39, and they were left with this impression on their minds.
Joh_10:38
Believe the works - Though you do not credit me, yet consider my works, for they prove that I came from God. No one could do them unless he was sent of God.
Father is in me ... - Most intimately connected. See Joh_5:36. This expression denotes most intimate union - such as can exist in no other case. See Mat_11:27; Notes, Joh_17:21.

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#7

Post by acrossandasong » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:15 am

I have a bit of a theory, Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are all of one mind. I don't believe that they are the same being but three aspects of the same idea. a lot like water-> you can have ice, you can have water and you can have steam. but it's that same concept, just as a man and woman become one and of the same mind when they enter marriage (well thats the idea anyway) i could certainly be wrong but thats my explanation. :roll:

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#8

Post by YLTYLT » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:46 am

There is some merit to that statement
Using Deuteronomy 6:4,
“Hear, O Israel! The LORD our God, is one Lord.”

The word (one) comes from the Hebrew word 'echad and can easily mean “compound unity.” Though some religions have tried to deny the Trinity because of this verse, the “unity” of JEHOVAH as opposed to the belief in many gods is what is being stressed here. Deuteronomy 6:4 could easily have been translated,

“Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.”

This same word 'echad is used in Genesis 2:24,

“Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.”

Whenever couples marry, they don't become one in “number.” They become one in “unity.” This same word 'echad is again used in Genesis 11:6,
“And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.”

The people spoken of here in Genesis 11:6 did not become one in “number.” They became one in “unity.” Genesis 11:6 could easily read this way,

“And the LORD said, Behold, the people are unified (i.e., are one), and they have all a unified language;”

Truly, the one true God is a Trinity in unity and the fact that God is the great “three-in-one” should be no more difficult to understand than a husband and wife being two and yet “one flesh.”

There is one name for one God in three persons. In Matthew 28:19 the Greek word for “name” is singular in number. Yet CHRIST uses it to signify the FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT (i.e., the plurality and nature of God as a Trinity). To deny the Triune Godhead, and CHRIST a part of it, one cannot be a Christian (See - John 8:24).

Finally, according to John 4:20-24, the reason it is so important to understand the Triune nature of the Godhead is that God desires to be worshipped correctly. There are three PERSONS named within the Scriptures who received the kind of worship that God alone deserves:

FATHER (John 4:21,23,24 & Rev 4:10 & 5:14 & 7:11 & 11:16 & 19:4)
SON (Matt 2:2,8,11 & 8:2 & 9:18 & 14:33 & 15:25 & 18:26 & 20:20 & 28:9,17 & Mark 5:6 & 15:19 & Luke 24:52 & John 9:38 & Heb 1:6)
HOLY SPIRIT (I Corinthians 3:16 & Ezekiel 3:24-27 & Acts 5:1-4)

Interestingly enough, there were three persons within the Scriptures who “wisely” refused the kind of worship that God alone deserves: Peter ( Acts 10:25-26), Paul (Acts 14:8-18), and one of the brethren (Rev 19:9-10 & 22:8-9).

On the other hand, there are three persons in the Bible who will “foolishly” demand the kind of worship that God alone deserves: Satan (Matthew 4:9-10 & Luke 4:7-8 & Rev 13:4), Demons (Rev 9:20), Anti Christ (i.e., beast) (Rev 13:4,8,15 & 14:9-11 & 16:2 & 19:20 & 20:4).

One of the greatest verses in the Old Testament proving the Trinity is Isaiah 48:16

“Come ye near unto ME, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the LORD GOD, and his SPIRIT, hath sent ME”

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#9

Post by YLTYLT » Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:58 am

In Romans 1:20, the word “Godhead” (signifying more than one person is involved) is used.

Each person of the Trinity receives the worship that only God is due
*FATHER (Jn 4:21,23,24 & Rev 4:10 & 5:14 & 7:11 & 11:16 & 19:4)
*SON (Mt 2:2,8,11 & 8:2 & 9:18 & 14:33 & 15:25 & 18:26 & 20:20 & 28:9,17 & Mk 5:6 & 15:19 & Lk 24:52 & Jn 9:38 & Heb 1:6)
*HOLY SPIRIT (I Cor 3:16 & Ezekiel 3:24-27 & Acts 5:1-4)






What happen to our bible code link?

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Re:

#10

Post by jenna » Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:59 pm

acrossandasong wrote:I have a bit of a theory, Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are all of one mind. I don't believe that they are the same being but three aspects of the same idea. a lot like water-> you can have ice, you can have water and you can have steam. but it's that same concept, just as a man and woman become one and of the same mind when they enter marriage (well thats the idea anyway) i could certainly be wrong but thats my explanation. :roll:
I totally agree with this! God and Jesus can be likened to a "family", composed of two separate beings, with the spirit of one like mind.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: Re:

#11

Post by Byblos » Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:26 am

jenwat3 wrote:
acrossandasong wrote:I have a bit of a theory, Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are all of one mind. I don't believe that they are the same being but three aspects of the same idea. a lot like water-> you can have ice, you can have water and you can have steam. but it's that same concept, just as a man and woman become one and of the same mind when they enter marriage (well thats the idea anyway) i could certainly be wrong but thats my explanation. :roll:
I totally agree with this! God and Jesus can be likened to a "family", composed of two separate beings, with the spirit of one like mind.
Jenwat3, you're sounding more and more like a trinitarian :lol: , stick around kiddo.
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#12

Post by jenna » Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:50 am

I can appreciate the vote of confidence, Byblos, and thank you for it. I do want to clarify one thing though. Many people believe the trinity is 3-in-1. As in 3 beings in one body. This I do not believe. I think , rather, that there are two beings, totally separate from one another, except for the way they think.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#13

Post by Byblos » Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:46 am

jenwat3 wrote:I can appreciate the vote of confidence, Byblos, and thank you for it. I do want to clarify one thing though. Many people believe the trinity is 3-in-1. As in 3 beings in one body. This I do not believe. I think , rather, that there are two beings, totally separate from one another, except for the way they think.
Hey I'll take whatever I can get (I'm reaching out here, help me out, will ya!). Just kidding, really. You believe what you believe out of conviction and so do we. Very seldom do these exchanges result in one changing positions (it does happen though). This is one of the reasons we have such strong language in the board purpose, clearly defining what this site is all about and to whom it is primarily available. We've entertained over the years many so-called non-traditional Christians but as long as the exchanges are done in a respectful manner (which I have so far seen nothing but from you) then I see no reason why it should not continue.

Post edit: Just to clarify, trinitarians do not believe 3 beings in one body. We believe in 3 separate and distinct personalities (bodies, if you wish albeit 2 are non-physical), but one essence (I don't want to say one mind to stick to the same analogy, but I think you know what I mean).

Carry on,

Byblos.
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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#14

Post by jenna » Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:50 am

Thank you Byblos. I do try to respect others and their beliefs. I think everyone has the right to their own opinion, and even though we may not agree, we should respect it. thank you again, and God bless.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

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Re: The Trinity, tradition or scripture?

#15

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:43 pm

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I (Jesus) Father (self explanatory) Comforter (Holy Spirit) Jesus describes the Holy Spirit as "He".

3 Individual's who share the Godhead, all of which are in agreement with each other. For example:

Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
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1Ti 6:21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

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