Other things necessary for salvation?

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
andyredeemed
Recognized Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:44 am
Christian: No
Location: Northampton, UK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

salvation

#76

Post by andyredeemed » Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:30 am

Wow. I didn't know it was all so complicated. John 3:16 for God so loved-Oh come on everyone, you know the words! Say it with me! "For god so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life" no provisos, no ifs buts or maybes, no calvinists, arminians, no Jews or Greeks, blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda.

Love Jesus, believe on his name, be with him forever.

To illustrate:
Two rabbi's having a discussion about who's disciples knew the Torah better. One says "my students can recite the whole of the law standing on one leg", the other rabbi says "Prove it". so the first rabbi gets one of his students up. He stands on on leg and says:"love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your strength,and all your will. Love your neighbor as yourself"
And sat down. the Rabbi explained: "everything else is commentary".
It's really not difficult. If it was, then Christ died for nothing. It is impossible. If it wasn't, Christ died for nothing.
Of course, I could be wrong. :(
God is good

andyredeemed
Recognized Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:44 am
Christian: No
Location: Northampton, UK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

salvation

#77

Post by andyredeemed » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:01 am

Sorry if the above seemed a bit flippant. I realize there are wider issues within this, but I wonder: Is the church being built by such discussions? has anyone been built up by it all? If we could do a poll of those who have followed this thread, whether they posted a reply or not, would they come away from it with more assurance, or less? So we don't want people to be uninformed, or to harm God's cause with bad doctrine. I think Jesus is bigger than doctrinal differences, and salvation, if it hinges on such finely-split hairs, is a lot less sure than I think I could cope with. How could I keep hope alive under such a burden?
There is a thread of reasoning that runs through John's gospel, one phrase leads to the next:"No-one has greater love than this: That he lay down his life for his friends", "You are my friends if you do as I command", "This is my commandment: That you love one another. As I have loved you, so should you love each other."
God is good

FFC
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1684
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:11 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: salvation

#78

Post by FFC » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:15 pm

andyredeemed wrote:Sorry if the above seemed a bit flippant. I realize there are wider issues within this, but I wonder: Is the church being built by such discussions? has anyone been built up by it all? If we could do a poll of those who have followed this thread, whether they posted a reply or not, would they come away from it with more assurance, or less? So we don't want people to be uninformed, or to harm God's cause with bad doctrine. I think Jesus is bigger than doctrinal differences, and salvation, if it hinges on such finely-split hairs, is a lot less sure than I think I could cope with. How could I keep hope alive under such a burden?
There is a thread of reasoning that runs through John's gospel, one phrase leads to the next:"No-one has greater love than this: That he lay down his life for his friends", "You are my friends if you do as I command", "This is my commandment: That you love one another. As I have loved you, so should you love each other."
Hey, who asked you to come in here and be reasonable? :lol: Thanks for that. There is definately life in your words.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

ttoews
Established Member
Posts: 190
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:20 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: salvation

#79

Post by ttoews » Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:32 pm

andyredeemed wrote:Sorry if the above seemed a bit flippant.
didn't to me...thought it quite good.
There is a thread of reasoning that runs through John's gospel, one phrase leads to the next:"No-one has greater love than this: That he lay down his life for his friends", "You are my friends if you do as I command", "This is my commandment: That you love one another. As I have loved you, so should you love each other."
I believe that I agree....any position on salvation that emphasizes form over substance or values technical criteria over the spiritual is flawed (IMHO)....and (as far as I understand from another thread that dealt with this same matter), the "Free Grace" position holds that someone who hates Jesus will still go to heaven (provided he believed for an instant b/c in that instant he has accepted the "true" gospel) and someone that actually loves Jesus will go to hell (if he believes that good works necessarily result from faith b/c in so doing he has rejected the "true" gospel)

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

#80

Post by B. W. » Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:26 am

Jac3510 wrote:BW, I don't have any suggestions on paragraphs or actual text or whatever. I just think that you should clearly distinguish between the EVENT of justification and the PROCESS of sanctification. Both are by grace, in their own way; both have different ideas, and you cannot let your hearers think that the aspects of sanctification are involved in justification. If you do, they will have the wrong idea about justification, and then you will never get anything other than moralistic disciples who are as lost as Hitler ever was.

So, yes, there is a difference in the grace of justification and the grace of sanctification. Don't mix the two. I would suggest deciding WHO the article is directed at. If to believers, then assure them of their justification based on their belief in Jesus' promise (i.e., John 6:47), and then go on to talk about the need to press on to maturity. If, though, you are writing to unbelievers, let the sanctification issue rest until they have come to believe the justifying proposition. If you just feel you HAVE to have more (although I wonder why the Gospel wouldn't be enough???), use Eph 2:10 to mention what we are saved FOR. Naturally, just because a person doesn't do what they are supposed to do as a Christian doesn't make them any less saved, nor are good works guaranteed in the life of any believer. But if you want them to know this salvation is for a purpose, then that may be a good way to break down the article…
zoegirl wrote:I have a BIG problem with the ideas presented here. If you HAVE to have more?! Although I wonder why the Gospel wouldn't be enough?! Oy! Yes, If it were simply unbelievers, then presenting doctrinal terms would be unrealistic. HOWEVER, I feel that too many churches ignore the doctrine of sanctification, and, as such, fail to equip believers with the tools necessary and thus promote new believers failing to root, as in the parable of the seeds. So many churches seem to present such a diluted view of living as a Christian that I wonder if the church is sometimes being the stumbling block for these growing Christians.
Jac3510 wrote: because I think it has some great truths in it about the conditionality of sanctification. Do note, BW, that the chapter is full of exhortations to do things. We have a choice in that matter. We don't in salvation. We either believe Jesus' promise or we don't! Also, please note that not one chapter later, Paul is confessing that his flesh is still sold under sin, and because of that he finds himself habitually in the same sins. His conclusion: thank God for the future resurrection, and because of THAT, there is NO CONDEMNATION to those in Jesus.
zoegirl wrote:Please clarify "conditionality of sanctification", because to me, if I am reading you correctly, then I do disagree here. While sanctification does not make us perfect, it is Christ working in us to be more Christ-like. What sort of grace does Christ give us if it does not enable us live in Him and sanctify us? A choice in the matter? Not clear, clarify please, in relation to the above conditionality.
"Nor are good works guaranteed in the life of a believer?" ?! If Christ cannot guarantee a change in us, then He is not much of a savior. My savior conquered death, He can surely effect changes and will effect changes in believers. We are a new creation...
Sanctification is a process, and no, it does not make us perfect, but it is a process. "He is the author and perfector of our faith"
Hi zoegril and all, regarding my article — it was designed for Christians as what you cited about Christians not doing anything sums up the sad state of many in the Church today. We are to stir-up good works or better said 'employment' and remind that living for Christ means just that — living — walking as Jesus — imitators of God dear children etc… and etc… This takes grace to do so. The Holy Spirit resides in his people and if so, what would be the result?

The role of the Holy Spirit within the Christian sadly lacks in many doctrines today. If belief leads no where and doesn't promote any results is dead faith. All I can ask if what happens when you were saved? Belief only? Or the indwelling of God's Spirit within you? If the Spirit of God — what evidence — testimony does our lives show? If belief alone — what evidence — testimony does our lives show?
zoegirl wrote: If Christ cannot guarantee a change in us, then He is not much of a savior. My savior conquered death, He can surely effect changes and will effect changes in believers. We are a new creation... Sanctification is a process, and no, it does not make us perfect, but it is a process. "He is the author and perfector of our faith"
Amen…

Well said...
-
-
-

YLTYLT
Established Member
Posts: 233
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:21 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#81

Post by YLTYLT » Fri Apr 13, 2007 11:48 am

B.W.,
as well as others.......

I have question about a scenario.
For instance, take a person that had prayed to Christ for salvation. But lets say that there life had no outwardly visible change, and they do not ever get into the word to study it and are still living in with a worldly focus.

But lets say that this person several years later starts going to church on a regular basis. There life may change a little, but they still have somewhat of a worldly focus.

Then this person through the process of going to church decides to be baptized. Possibly then a little bit less worldly, but still not a significant change.

Then this person is fortunate enough to find a great teacher, that explains the Gospel clearer than you had ever understood. And then life changed significantly after that. My passion to learn the Bible increased, (but of course this could have a lot to do with the teacher and his ablity to transfer truth).

(of course, assuming that an actual salvation did occur for this person)

From the scenario above, at what point did salvation occur? At the first prayer or after there was a clear understanding and a significant change in life. Or sometime in between.

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

#82

Post by B. W. » Fri Apr 13, 2007 12:41 pm

YLTYLT wrote:B.W.,
as well as others.......

I have question about a scenario.
For instance, take a person that had prayed to Christ for salvation. But lets say that there life had no outwardly visible change, and they do not ever get into the word to study it and are still living in with a worldly focus.

But lets say that this person several years later starts going to church on a regular basis. There life may change a little, but they still have somewhat of a worldly focus.

Then this person through the process of going to church decides to be baptized. Possibly then a little bit less worldly, but still not a significant change.

Then this person is fortunate enough to find a great teacher, that explains the Gospel clearer than you had ever understood. And then life changed significantly after that. My passion to learn the Bible increased, (but of course this could have a lot to do with the teacher and his ablity to transfer truth).

(of course, assuming that an actual salvation did occur for this person)

From the scenario above, at what point did salvation occur? At the first prayer or after there was a clear understanding and a significant change in life. Or sometime in between.
Answer would be - when they first believed then their journey began. The mark of this would be the person's first prayer resulting in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Lord takes over from there in that omni-personal way as you described.

However John 10-27-29 provides the best answer…

John 10:27-29, “My sheep know my voice, and I know them. They follow me, 28 and I give them eternal life, so that they will never be lost. No one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father gave them to me, and he is greater than all others. No one can snatch them from his hands…” CEV
-
-
-

FFC
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1684
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:11 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#83

Post by FFC » Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:39 pm

YLTYLT wrote:From the scenario above, at what point did salvation occur? At the first prayer or after there was a clear understanding and a significant change in life. Or sometime in between.
I would say it happened at the very moment of belief, but that the individual did not experience the temporal benefits of it until he got down to business and surrendered his whole life over to God.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

Post Reply