Bart's Invitation

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
DonCameron
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#91

Post by DonCameron » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:13 am

Hello again John,

In this case I had said...
I understand Adam and Jesus were both created perfect and both had free will. The difference between them is that Adam used his free will to disobey God. Jesus used his to be obedient even to his death (thank goodness).
Your comment about this was...
This says the only difference between Adam and Jesus is that Adam exercised his free will to sin and Jesus didn't. Paul in 1 Cor 15:47 makes the distinction that one came from the dust of the earth and the other from heaven.
But John, I didn't say that the "only" difference between Adam and Jesus was the different way they exercised their free will. I was only referring to the fact that they both had the same free will. The perfect man Adam used his free will to disobey God. But the perfect man Jesus used his to obey Him.

Don

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#92

Post by Byblos » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:25 am

DonCameron wrote:Hello again John,

In this case I had said...
I understand Adam and Jesus were both created perfect and both had free will. The difference between them is that Adam used his free will to disobey God. Jesus used his to be obedient even to his death (thank goodness).

Your comment about this was...
This says the only difference between Adam and Jesus is that Adam exercised his free will to sin and Jesus didn't. Paul in 1 Cor 15:47 makes the distinction that one came from the dust of the earth and the other from heaven.

But John, I didn't say that the "only" difference between Adam and Jesus was the different way they exercised their free will. I was only referring to the fact that they both had the same free will. The perfect man Adam used his free will to disobey God. But the perfect man Jesus used his to obey Him.

Don


Ok, I can accept that. Although I feel like we're dancing around some ideas but we're never really honing in on them. Let me ask you the following:

1) Do you profess Jesus to be your Lord and Saviour and pray to him for the forgiveness of your sins?
2) If yes, why do you not consider yourself an idolator?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#93

Post by DonCameron » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:53 am

John and Everyone,

I apologize for loosing track of who said what!

But I think I'm now responding to something John said.

I had said...
I notice that Paul didn't say (in 1 Corinthians 15:21,22), "resurrection of the dead is through God. For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in God all will be made alive."
But you said...
Yes he did say it was through God in 1 Cor 15:47 wrote:
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
First: http://www.biblegateway.com gives various Bible translations of the above verse. Most of them so not say "the Lord." They read, "The first man is from dust; the second man is from heaven."

Second: But even if the word "Lord" is present, Paul still does not say, "the second man is God from heaven."

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#94

Post by Byblos » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:45 am

DonCameron wrote:John and Everyone,

I apologize for loosing track of who said what!

But I think I'm now responding to something John said.

I had said...
I notice that Paul didn't say (in 1 Corinthians 15:21,22), "resurrection of the dead is through God. For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in God all will be made alive."
But you said...
Yes he did say it was through God in 1 Cor 15:47 wrote:
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
First: http://www.biblegateway.com gives various Bible translations of the above verse. Most of them so not say "the Lord." They read, "The first man is from dust; the second man is from heaven."

Second: But even if the word "Lord" is present, Paul still does not say, "the second man is God from heaven."

Don
My point again was that there is a fundamental difference between Jesus and Adam, it being that Jesus came from heaven (John 3:13).
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#95

Post by DonCameron » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:10 pm

John,
Jesus came to deliver us from sin and in the process give us eternal salvation. If we do not sin, what are we being delivered from?
But who says we do not sin? 1 John 1:8 says, "If we make the statement:'We do not sin,' we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us."

You asked...
Why can't we obtain eternal salvation on our own? Why do we need Jesus if we're capable of not ever sinning?

But who said that man is capable of not ever sinning? The only two men that I know of who were capable of never sinning were Adam and Jesus. Both of them were perfect. I think one of the reasons for the Law of Moses was to teach us that imperfect man is not capable of keeping a perfect Law on his own. All those animal sacrifices pointed to God's provision so that imperfect man may have acceptable relationship with a perfect God.

This is not one of my best subjects. I'm sure others could express these things much better.

Don

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#96

Post by ttoews » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:23 pm

DonCameron wrote:Hi ttoews,

I looked at your posts back in January but there is so much information there that I don't know how to handle it. If there is something specific you want to bring to my attention I'd be happy to consider it.
well let me see if I can cut it down a bit....part of what I am saying is that I think the way in which Jesus is called Lord, God etc. is very important and that the way in which it is done makes it differ in kind (and not just degree) from how someone else such as Moses might be called a god, a savior etc. That idea is wrapped up in these bits from the "old dribble":

In Eph 4:4-6 Paul declares (among other things) that there is one Spirit, one Lord, one faith and one God and Father. Now you might want to point out that these need not be exclusive terms, after all there are many spirits, many faiths, many lords and many gods, but with respect to the Church and matters of salvation there is only one of each...these are exclusive terms from the Church's perspective.

When one takes a closer look at the one Spirit, we find the following:
a) 1 Peter 1:11 the Spirit of Christ pointed through the prophets to this salvation
b) Romans 8:9 its states that one is not controlled by the sinful nature if the Spirit of God lives in him, and then states "And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead b/c of sin, yet your spirit is alive..."
c) Gal 4:6 it states God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, but at Gal 3:5 it states God gave his Spirit to the believers
d) 2 Cor 3:17 reads " Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom..."

it seems this one Spirit is both the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God and that Paul uses those terms interchangeably....could that be b/c Jesus is God?
take a closer look at the one faith....
a) for our salvation we are directed to have faith in Jesus Christ (1 Tim 3:13, Col 1:4, Rom 3:22, Gal 2:16 and 2 Tim 3:15 the last two specify that justification and salvation come through faith in Jesus Christ )
b) yet elsewhere the faith of the church is described as faith in God ( 1 Thess 1:8, 1 Peter 1:21, Heb 6:1)

it seems this one faith is described as a faith in Jesus and then also described as a faith in God...could that be b/c Jesus is God?

Wrt the "One Lord", I do not anticipate that you would take issue with my identification of that one Lord as Jesus Christ...after all at 1 Cor 8:6 it reads "there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ". From there I note that:
a)in Rev Jesus is not only called Lord, but is also called Lord of Lords and King of Kings.(c17:14, 19:16) at 1 Tim 6:15 however, God is called the only Ruler and Lord of Lords. (contrast this with Jude 4 where Jesus is identified as our only Sovereign and Lord)....how can you have two Lord of Lords and two only Sovereigns/Rulers unless both are also God?

b)the gospels (all four actually) identify John the Baptist as the voice (from Isaiah) that is preparing the way for the Lord (Jehovah in the OT)..such that a passage dealing with Jehovah is applied to Jesus. That example is not unique.
In Joel 2:32 it states that anyone who calls on the name of the Lord (Jehovah in Joel, Kurios in the NT) will be saved. That verse from Joel is used by Peter (Acts 2:21) and by Paul (Roman 10:13). In Acts 9:14, 21 calling on a name is considered and the name in question is Jesus. In Romans 10:9 the requirement for salvation to confess "Jesus is Lord" is stated just before the quote from Joel regarding salvation for those who call on the name of the Lord (Lord = Kurios in both cases) Again a passage from the OT which refers to Jehovah is applied to Jesus.
In Isaiah 45:23 -24 it states every knee will bow before Jehovah...at Romans 14: 11 Paul references that verse and then at Phil 2:10 Paul points out that every knee shall bow at the name of Jesus and every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord.
At Psalms 24:1 it is stated that the earth and everything in it is the Lord's ...at 1Cor 10:26, just after considering the Lord's supper, Paul quotes Psalms 24:1 using Kurios instead of Jehovah. If Paul didn't mean to apply Psalms 24:1 to Jesus why did he use "Kurios" for the "one Lord", for the "Lord's supper" and for the greek translation of Psalms 24:1?

In the NT then, passages about Jehovah are applied to Jesus with the greek word "Kurios" used for Lord where Jehovah was used in the OT Hebrew. Could this be b/c Jesus, the one Lord, is also Jehovah God?

There is more one could say, but hopefully this gives you an idea of what I mean when I suggest that we should not only note the titles attributed to Jesus (b/c sometimes these same titles are attributed to others), but that we should also note the manner in which these titles are applied to Christ (b/c they are not applied in that manner to anyone else but God almighty.)

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#97

Post by FFC » Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:40 pm

Good job, ttoews!
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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#98

Post by Byblos » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:47 pm

DonCameron wrote:John,
Jesus came to deliver us from sin and in the process give us eternal salvation. If we do not sin, what are we being delivered from?


But who says we do not sin? 1 John 1:8 says, "If we make the statement:'We do not sin,' we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us."

You asked...
Why can't we obtain eternal salvation on our own? Why do we need Jesus if we're capable of not ever sinning?

But who said that man is capable of not ever sinning? The only two men that I know of who were capable of never sinning were Adam and Jesus. Both of them were perfect. I think one of the reasons for the Law of Moses was to teach us that imperfect man is not capable of keeping a perfect Law on his own. All those animal sacrifices pointed to God's provision so that imperfect man may have acceptable relationship with a perfect God.

This is not one of my best subjects. I'm sure others could express these things much better.

Don


Don, you're sort of proving my point. Of course we all sin. The point is that even a perfect man (i.e. Adam) sins. It takes more than a perfect man to redeem us from sin because otherwise we can all be 'perfect' like any perfect man if we so choose. Only God could redeem us.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#99

Post by DonCameron » Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:10 pm

Hello Everyone,

With all this 'intellectual stuff' going on I thought I would go to back to Acts 2:14-42 and observe what it was that the apostles were teaching about Jesus that caused 3,000 people to get baptized.

I was not able to see anything they said that even comes close to suggesting that Jesus was God or that God was Triune. Instead, Peter concluded: "Let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified." - verse 36

Did 3,000 people get baptized without realizing that Jesus is God? Or did they get baptized because they then realized that that Jesus was both Lord and Christ?

I try to picture what Trinitarians (I hope that is an acceptable term) would have taught about Jesus if they had been there. It's hard to believe that you wouldn't have said something about Jesus being God before encouraging those 3000 Jews to get baptized.

I'm going to keep reading Acts to see if they ever did teach anyone that Jesus is God. If anyone here has already found them doing so please let me know where you found it.

Don

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#100

Post by DonCameron » Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:43 pm

Hi John,

You said...

The point is that even a perfect man (i.e. Adam) sins.

Adam proved that a perfect man can sin. This is because he was created with free will. If he had exercised his free will in order to obey God he would have proved that a perfect man can be faithful and not sin.

You said...

[quote]It takes more than a perfect man to redeem us from sin because otherwise we can all be 'perfect' like any perfect man if we so choose. Only God could redeem us.[/quote.

John, I'm 'sweating bullets' trying to understand what you just said here. Can you reword it somehow?

Don

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#101

Post by Byblos » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:02 pm

DonCameron wrote:Hi John,

You said...

The point is that even a perfect man (i.e. Adam) sins.

Adam proved that a perfect man can sin. This is because he was created with free will. If he had exercised his free will in order to obey God he would have proved that a perfect man can be faithful and not sin.

You said...
It takes more than a perfect man to redeem us from sin because otherwise we can all be 'perfect' like any perfect man if we so choose. Only God could redeem us.

John, I'm 'sweating bullets' trying to understand what you just said here. Can you reword it somehow?

Don


Don,

Do you think God is a god of trial and error? Let's try with a perfect man, Adam. If that doesn't work (i.e. Adam exercised his free will to sin) then let's try Moses. Oops, that didn't work either, let's see what Jesus does with this free will thingie. Yes, we have a winner ladies and gentlemen! (sorry for the sarcasm but it illustrates the point). Adam was a perfect man and he sinned, lesson learned. God will not leave (nor did he ever leave) the plan of salvation to man. If this is not clear or too intellectual Don, then don't worry about it. You already have much on your plate dealing with ttowes' last post and Puritan Lad's (much) earlier post as to why both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are referred to as Jehovah.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#102

Post by bizzt » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:03 pm

DonCameron wrote: John, I'm 'sweating bullets' trying to understand what you just said here. Can you reword it somehow?

Don
Hey Don

I am wondering who do you believe Saves you from Eternal Punishment? God or Christ? If it be Christ, how does a MAN (like ADAM) save you from Eternal Punishment?

If it is God. Why was Christ sent to die for us? What was his Mandate for? How come he is the one that Saves us and not God like God Promised in the Old Testament?

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#103

Post by DonCameron » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:44 am

John & bizzt,

bizzt asked...

Who do you believe Saves you from Eternal Punishment? God or Christ?

God the Father arranged it so that we can be saved from eternal punishment through, or by means of the Saviour He provided for us - His only begotten Son.

bizzt asked...

If it be Christ, how does a MAN (like ADAM) save you from Eternal Punishment?

All I can say is that this is what Paul said...

"Since death is through a man(Adam), resurrection of the dead is also through a man (Christ). For just as in Adam (a man) all are dying, so also in the Christ (a man) all will be made alive." - 1 Corinthians 15:21,22

I notice that Paul didn't say that resurrection of the dead is through God or that "in God " all will be made alive."

bizzt asked...

"If it is God (who is our Saviour). Why was Christ sent to die for us? "

Because that's the way God the Father arranged for us to get saved.

_______________________________

John,

I"m still trying to understand...

Are you saying that the reason why Jesus had to be more than just a perfect man is because Adam proved that a perfect man can sin? Therefore, a perfect man is not able to save anyone. Again, is that why Jesus had to be more than a perfect man?

If this is what you are saying, then here are my thoughts...

You seem to be skipping over the fact that a perfect man can choose not to sin. Adam could have chosen to obey God. He had that ability. Your position seems to be that it is impossible for a perfect man obey God and not sin.

Are you saying that if Jesus had only been a perfect man that it would have also been impossible even for him to obey his Father and not sin?

It seems to me that if anyone (perfect or not) cannot use his free will to obey God and not sin, then there really isn't free will. If it was not possible for Adam to obey God then he must not have had free will.

You mentioned Moses as one who would not qualify as our Saviour. I agree. But not because he was perfect and could sin. But rather because he was born in sin and therefore was imperfect no matter how hard he tried not to sin.

You gave Jesus as the example of the one that does qualify. I again agree. But not because he is God and cannot sin, but because he was a perfect man who didn't sin. He was born without sin and he used his free will to remain sinless. Although Adam was also 'born' without sin, he used his free will not to remain sinless.

WHAT IS THE LESSON LEARNED?

You and I have not learned the same lesson.

You said: Adam was a perfect man and he sinned, lesson learned.

If I understand you John, the lesson you have learned is that since Adam was perfect and yet he sinned, therefore for mankind to be redeemed from the negative effects of Adam's sin, it will take the sacrifice of someone more then just another perfect man (who can also sin). And so, if Jesus was just a perfect man, his sacrifice would not be able to redeem any of Adam's descendants. Therefore Jesus had to be God in order to be able to able to accomplish this.

Is that close?

The lesson I learn comes from what Paul explained to the Corinthians above...

"Since death is through a man(Adam), resurrection of the dead (salvation) is also through a man (Christ). For just as in Adam (a man) all are dying, so also in the Christ (a man) all will be made alive." - 1 Corinthians 15:21,22

Although you said, "God will not leave the plan of salvation to man," Paul said that our salvation from death is "through a man," Jesus Christ.

To me, you don't seem to be taking into account that although Adam had the ability to sin, he also had the equal ability not to sin. And because he was created with free will, he could choose which way he wanted to go. When he chose the wrong way he lost his perfection and therefore could not pass perfection to any of his offspring.

Jesus also had free will. He too could choose whether he wanted to obey his Father or not - just like Adam. Fortunately the man Jesus chose to be obedient even to his death. That's the way it looks to me.

Please let me know if I have understood you properly, If not, where did I miss.

Don

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#104

Post by ttoews » Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:43 pm

DonCameron wrote:Hello Everyone,

With all this 'intellectual stuff' going on I thought I would go to back to Acts 2:14-42 and observe what it was that the apostles were teaching about Jesus that caused 3,000 people to get baptized.

I was not able to see anything they said that even comes close to suggesting that Jesus was God or that God was Triune.
you are right, it isn't clearly stated....I take it that, like me, you would expect Peter to address and clarify something as important as the nature/divinity of Christ in his sermon launching the Church's evangelistic mission. Would be nice if it was there and in its absence I note:
a) perhaps Luke simply did not report that portion of the sermon (I don't expect that Luke reported the whole sermon), but then one is still left wondering why God didn't have Luke do so.
b) perhaps understanding the nature/divinity of Christ is not as important as the Church has made it?
c) when one wonders why God didn't clarify the divinity of Christ so that no debate could arise one is not gaining support for one view over the other view....you might say that, "If Jesus is a member of the Trinity, surely Peter would have clarified that membership in his sermon.", but I can equally state that " If Jesus isn't a member of the Trinity, surely God wouldn't have allowed passages in the Bible to lead to trinitarian beliefs such that His church has been trinitarian (to the exclusion of other views) for many, many centuries."
I'm going to keep reading Acts to see if they ever did teach anyone that Jesus is God. If anyone here has already found them doing so please let me know where you found it.

Don
I looked at this some time ago...I'll see if I made and kept any notes.

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#105

Post by Turgonian » Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:21 pm

Don -- You assume that whenever the Bible talks of Christ as 'a man', 'the Lord' or 'the Son of God', that means He can't have been God. Well, it doesn't. All Trinitarians recognize that Christ was also a man. 'The Lord' was a title of YHVH, and 'the Son of God' was seen as divine and eternally begotten by the people of the time (incl. the 3000).

It reminds me a little of a short illustrated story I read about a rabbit who didn't know what kind of animal he was. At last he met a number of other rabbits, but they fled into their holes because there was a weasel coming. The rabbit with the identity crisis climbed into a tree. So did the weasel. She told the rabbit that she ate rabbits -- rabbits like him! She jumped at him and he kicked her away. The rabbit climbed down from the tree and the other rabbits joined him, hugging him and yelling at him, 'You're a hero!' The rabbit thought about this and said, 'Am I? I thought I was a rabbit.'

:lol:

Christ's titles complement each other. They don't exclude each other.
The Bible says they were "willingly ignorant". In the Greek, this means "be dumb on purpose". (Kent Hovind)

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