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General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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Byblos
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#16

Post by Byblos » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:45 pm

bizzt wrote:Now this sounds a little Better. So God gave her a role that she had to fulfill and then had to change Salvation for her so she could become the "Ark of the Covenant" to Birth Jesus. The question is did she know of this before she was told by the Angel or After? Does Scripture speak of this?

Thanks


Why would you say God had to change salvation for her? What makes her any different than OT saints who were saved long before Jesus was born? God used her to become the ark of the new covenant much the same he used Moses, for example. As far as her knowing it, I would say no, she did not know it until she was spoken to by the angel Gabriel, but I don't see what difference that makes. Did Moses know he would lead Israel out of Egypt at a young age? Most likely not. As for scripture, I don't think there's any denying that she was the mother of Jesus now, is there? :wink:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#17

Post by ttoews » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:52 pm

Byblos wrote:..... As far as her knowing it, I would say no, she did not know it until she was spoken to by the angel Gabriel, but I don't see what difference that makes.
I agree that it wouldn't make any difference...but don't you think that at sometime in her 15 +/- years she would have asked herself, "Hey, why am I so different? Everyone else sins, the rabbi, the priest,...they sin. The Patriarchs, they all sinned, but I don't sin at all. Why is that?"

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#18

Post by Byblos » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:56 pm

ttoews wrote:
Byblos wrote:..... As far as her knowing it, I would say no, she did not know it until she was spoken to by the angel Gabriel, but I don't see what difference that makes.
I agree that it wouldn't make any difference...but don't you think that at sometime in her 15 +/- years she would have asked herself, "Hey, why am I so different? Everyone else sins, the rabbi, the priest,...they sin. The Patriarchs, they all sinned, but I don't sin at all. Why is that?"
How do you know she didn't (ask herself, that is)?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#19

Post by ttoews » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:02 pm

Byblos wrote:How do you know she didn't (ask herself, that is)?
I have no reason to believe that she did ask those questions...b/c I have no reason to believe that she didn't sin. On the other hand, if I had reason to believe that she didn't sin, then.....

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#20

Post by FFC » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:17 pm

Ya know, Byblos, I'm thinking that if anyone was the Ark of the covenant it was Jesus in the flesh who embodied God. God's container so to speak.

Just a thought. :wink:
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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#21

Post by Byblos » Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:19 pm

ttoews wrote:
Byblos wrote:How do you know she didn't (ask herself, that is)?
I have no reason to believe that she did ask those questions...b/c I have no reason to believe that she didn't sin. On the other hand, if I had reason to believe that she didn't sin, then.....


I guess we'll have to ask her one of these days. But wait, I'm Catholic, I could ask ... oh, never mind. :roll:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#22

Post by Byblos » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:34 am

FFC wrote:Ya know, Byblos, I'm thinking that if anyone was the Ark of the covenant it was Jesus in the flesh who embodied God. God's container so to speak.

Just a thought. :wink:
Well, we do know he is definitely the new covenant (in his blood, which is poured out for us). Can he be the new covenant as well as the ark that contains the new covenant? I don't know, but then again, who am I to put any limitations on what God can be or do? :wink:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#23

Post by FFC » Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:43 am

Byblos wrote:
FFC wrote:Ya know, Byblos, I'm thinking that if anyone was the Ark of the covenant it was Jesus in the flesh who embodied God. God's container so to speak.

Just a thought. :wink:
Well, we do know he is definitely the new covenant (in his blood, which is poured out for us). Can he be the new covenant as well as the ark that contains the new covenant? I don't know, but then again, who am I to put any limitations on what God can be or do? :wink:

You need to think outside the box, Byblos. :lol: Seriously, I think he can be the new covenant as well as the ark that contains the new covenant. He is all in all and in him all things consist.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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#24

Post by Byblos » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:45 am

FFC wrote:You need to think outside the box, Byblos. :lol:


:lol: FFC, remember who you're talking to? A Catholic; our middle name is 'think outside the box'. Trouble is when we do, we're hit with sola scriptura from the other side. There's just no satisfying you guys, is there? :lol:
FFC wrote:Seriously, I think he can be the new covenant as well as the ark that contains the new covenant. He is all in all and in him all things consist.


Seriously, no limitation, no argument there. But that's besides the point I guess.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#25

Post by bizzt » Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:09 pm

Byblos wrote:
bizzt wrote:Now this sounds a little Better. So God gave her a role that she had to fulfill and then had to change Salvation for her so she could become the "Ark of the Covenant" to Birth Jesus. The question is did she know of this before she was told by the Angel or After? Does Scripture speak of this?

Thanks


Why would you say God had to change salvation for her? What makes her any different than OT saints who were saved long before Jesus was born? God used her to become the ark of the new covenant much the same he used Moses, for example. As far as her knowing it, I would say no, she did not know it until she was spoken to by the angel Gabriel, but I don't see what difference that makes. Did Moses know he would lead Israel out of Egypt at a young age? Most likely not. As for scripture, I don't think there's any denying that she was the mother of Jesus now, is there? :wink:
Hmmmm 40 is a young Age ;) Just kidding

What I meant is if Mary was without Sin/Original Sin then the Salvation is different from OT Saints. Was Moses without Sin? Abraham? Jacob? Jeremiah?

This causes a problem for the Very act of Salvation because Salvation is required because we could NEVER be reconciled to God because of our Sin. However Mary never Sinned according to Catholic Theology therefore there would be no need for Jesus's Death and resurrection to save the lost because Sin is what made us lost in the first Place. I hope that explains what I am getting at better. :)

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#26

Post by Byblos » Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:34 pm

bizzt wrote:What I meant is if Mary was without Sin/Original Sin then the Salvation is different from OT Saints. Was Moses without Sin? Abraham? Jacob? Jeremiah?

This causes a problem for the Very act of Salvation because Salvation is required because we could NEVER be reconciled to God because of our Sin. However Mary never Sinned according to Catholic Theology therefore there would be no need for Jesus's Death and resurrection to save the lost because Sin is what made us lost in the first Place. I hope that explains what I am getting at better. :)
Yes, It's clear. But Mary wasn't without sin through her own merits. She needed Jesus to make her as such even before her birth. In other words, without Jesus saving her before she was ever born, she would not have been born without original sin and would not have been suitable for the task appointed to her. We do not believe salvation was changed or suspended for Mary. We simply believe it was applied to her before she was born. Does it smack of election/predestination a la calvinism? Perhaps a little, yes. I certainly don't presume to understand it all. Hope this explains it a little better from my side :wink:.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#27

Post by bizzt » Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:16 pm

Byblos wrote:
bizzt wrote:What I meant is if Mary was without Sin/Original Sin then the Salvation is different from OT Saints. Was Moses without Sin? Abraham? Jacob? Jeremiah?

This causes a problem for the Very act of Salvation because Salvation is required because we could NEVER be reconciled to God because of our Sin. However Mary never Sinned according to Catholic Theology therefore there would be no need for Jesus's Death and resurrection to save the lost because Sin is what made us lost in the first Place. I hope that explains what I am getting at better. :)
Yes, It's clear. But Mary wasn't without sin through her own merits. She needed Jesus to make her as such even before her birth. In other words, without Jesus saving her before she was ever born, she would not have been born without original sin and would not have been suitable for the task appointed to her. We do not believe salvation was changed or suspended for Mary. We simply believe it was applied to her before she was born. Does it smack of election/predestination a la calvinism? Perhaps a little, yes. I certainly don't presume to understand it all. Hope this explains it a little better from my side :wink:.
Ahhh Now I get it... OK... Of course Sola Scriptura...er forget it ;)

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#28

Post by Byblos » Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:47 pm

bizzt wrote:Ahhh Now I get it... OK... Of course Sola Scriptura...er forget it ;)
You just need to think outside the box my friend. :lol:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#29

Post by FFC » Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:16 pm

Byblos wrote:
bizzt wrote:What I meant is if Mary was without Sin/Original Sin then the Salvation is different from OT Saints. Was Moses without Sin? Abraham? Jacob? Jeremiah?

This causes a problem for the Very act of Salvation because Salvation is required because we could NEVER be reconciled to God because of our Sin. However Mary never Sinned according to Catholic Theology therefore there would be no need for Jesus's Death and resurrection to save the lost because Sin is what made us lost in the first Place. I hope that explains what I am getting at better. :)
Yes, It's clear. But Mary wasn't without sin through her own merits. She needed Jesus to make her as such even before her birth. In other words, without Jesus saving her before she was ever born, she would not have been born without original sin and would not have been suitable for the task appointed to her. We do not believe salvation was changed or suspended for Mary. We simply believe it was applied to her before she was born. Does it smack of election/predestination a la calvinism? Perhaps a little, yes. I certainly don't presume to understand it all. Hope this explains it a little better from my side :wink:.
Well John the Baptist was filled with the Holy spirit in his mothers womb. Hmmm. :?

BTW, Byblos, when I said you needed to think outside the box it was a pun, howbeit bad, on the ark of the Covenant... :roll: :lol:
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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Byblos
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#30

Post by Byblos » Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:21 pm

FFC wrote:Well John the Baptist was filled with the Holy spirit in his mothers womb. Hmmm. :?
Yes, but I don't think John the Baptist would've been a suitable new ark of the covenant. :wink:
FFC wrote:BTW, Byblos, when I said you needed to think outside the box it was a pun, howbeit bad, on the ark of the Covenant... :roll: :lol:
I know brother, I know. I just took it and ran with it, sorry. :oops:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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