The Fall and Free Will

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
FFC
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#76

Post by FFC » Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:49 pm

Don and August, I find myself agreeing with both of you because I sense that you both are looking at the same thing from different angles.

I think August is saying that Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and evil before the fall, or really even what good meant, because their only concept was of good. Am I far off August?

Don is saying that they did know what good and bad (evil) was before the fall, howbeit as defined by God, but after the fall and the tasting of the fruit knew the difference intimately and personally.

I agree with both of those statements. I'm not sure they contradict each other.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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#77

Post by August » Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:58 pm

You may very well have hit the nail on the head. I cannot find anyhting there to substantially disagree with.
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

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#78

Post by bizzt » Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:10 am

August wrote:You may very well have hit the nail on the head. I cannot find anyhting there to substantially disagree with.
Not that you are looking eh August ;)

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#79

Post by August » Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:16 am

bizzt wrote:
August wrote:You may very well have hit the nail on the head. I cannot find anyhting there to substantially disagree with.
Not that you are looking eh August ;)
Looking for what? 8)
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

//www.omnipotentgrace.org
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com

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#80

Post by bizzt » Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:17 am

Something to disagree with 8) :D

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What was the "knowledge"?

#81

Post by DonCameron » Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:50 pm

This may have already been answered already but I can't find it...

Specifically, what was the "knowledge" of what good and what was bad? Or, what was the "good and bad" knowledge of that made them like God, "knowing good and bad"?

From what August explained, this knowledge was not just general-type knowledge like of how to cultivate ground, or what to name the animals, or how to 'multiply,' or how to program a cassette tape player, etc.

Don

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Re: What was the "knowledge"?

#82

Post by August » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:21 pm

DonCameron wrote:This may have already been answered already but I can't find it...

Specifically, what was the "knowledge" of what good and what was bad? Or, what was the "good and bad" knowledge of that made them like God, "knowing good and bad"?

From what August explained, this knowledge was not just general-type knowledge like of how to cultivate ground, or what to name the animals, or how to 'multiply,' or how to program a cassette tape player, etc.

Don
Don, it refers to morality. It gave man the ability to distinguish between good and evil on a moral level.
Acts 17:24-25 (NIV)
"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. [25] And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else."

//www.omnipotentgrace.org
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com

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Re: The Tree of Life

#83

Post by ttoews » Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:26 pm

DonCameron wrote:I've also wondered about that "tree of life." Is it possible that that tree was just a symbol. That it symbolized one's right to live forever. But since when Adam disobeyed God he lost that right and therefore was not permitted to eat from that symbolic tree?

Don
Personally, I believe the whole story is a symbol.... the rest of the Bible goes on to explain that eternal life is a gift from God. It is not obtained by eating a fruit that hangs on a tree that grows out of the ground, unless eating = believing/accepting, and fruit = Christ's work, and tree =cross
...but then I also don't believe that snakes were ever the craftiest of all wild animals, or that they lost their legs b/c one of their number deceived Eve, or that serpents ever talked.

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#84

Post by DonCameron » Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:33 pm

Hi August,

When I asked what "the knowledge of good and bad" had reference to...
August wrote:It refers to morality. It gave man the ability to distinguish between good and evil on a moral level.
Can you give an example or two of a moral good and moral bad knowledge; something(s) that Adam and Eve could not possibly have understood or known or figured out before they ate from that tree?

Don

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Re: The Tree of Life

#85

Post by Turgonian » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:41 am

ttoews wrote:Personally, I believe the whole story is a symbol.... the rest of the Bible goes on to explain that eternal life is a gift from God. It is not obtained by eating a fruit that hangs on a tree that grows out of the ground, unless eating = believing/accepting, and fruit = Christ's work, and tree =cross
...but then I also don't believe that snakes were ever the craftiest of all wild animals, or that they lost their legs b/c one of their number deceived Eve, or that serpents ever talked.
I don't think you can doubt the historicity of Adam and Eve, although the Bible nowhere says that snakes had legs before the Fall -- and Satan sure could make a snake talk.
You're in a dangerous move when you try to 'explain away' Gen. 1-3 by symbolizing it. Then you have to 'allegorize' Rom. 5:12-19 too, and before you know it, you're hurtling toward Gnosticism and 'esoteric' hermeneutics.
The Bible says they were "willingly ignorant". In the Greek, this means "be dumb on purpose". (Kent Hovind)

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Re: The Tree of Life

#86

Post by ttoews » Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:28 am

Turgonian wrote: I don't think you can doubt the historicity of Adam and Eve,....
I don't...however, doubting the historicity of the Eden story does not require me to doubt the historicity of Adam and Eve any more than it requires me to doubt that God is the creator or that satan is a tempter.
... although the Bible nowhere says that snakes had legs before the Fall -- and Satan sure could make a snake talk.
agreed he could....which would mean that the snake was an innocent tool and that God was wrong(?) when He declared that the snake had "done this" and that snakes did not deserve to be cursed b/c one of their number was possessed(?)
You're in a dangerous move when you try to 'explain away' Gen. 1-3 by symbolizing it....
please....not explain away, but get to the actual meaning of it
Then you have to 'allegorize' Rom. 5:12-19 too,....
For Romans, do I not only need to believe that Adam lived and that he fell into sin and that he was the first man to do so?....b/c those are truths that I obtain from the Eden story....and I also believe that the Eden story very strongly points to that other man mentioned in Romans
... and before you know it, you're hurtling toward Gnosticism and 'esoteric' hermeneutics.
ouch!

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#87

Post by Turgonian » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:18 pm

OK, so it seems I was too hasty. ;) I apologize! If you still believe those basic truths, it's OK, although I wonder why you have to declare half of the story to be allegorical.
The Bible says they were "willingly ignorant". In the Greek, this means "be dumb on purpose". (Kent Hovind)

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#88

Post by ttoews » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:37 pm

Turgonian wrote:.... although I wonder why you have to declare half of the story to be allegorical.
don't know about the measurement of half...but, its the way it makes sense to me. Also, I suspect that you interpret part of it in a non-literal fashion and so I would wonder why you draw the line where you do. :wink:

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#89

Post by Turgonian » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:00 pm

I don't draw a line; I accept it as it's written.
The Bible says they were "willingly ignorant". In the Greek, this means "be dumb on purpose". (Kent Hovind)

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#90

Post by ttoews » Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:21 pm

Turgonian wrote:I don't draw a line; I accept it as it's written.
I accept it as written too...tell me, do you spiritualize "death"? If so, do you do so b/c that's the way the text makes sense to you? Do you spiritualize everything else or have you drawn a line? You earlier mentioned that Satan could make a snake talk....is that what you believe really happened? The text never mentions Satan and literally has the snake talking to Eve....so if you are telling me that Satan was there in the guise of a snake is that an understanding you gained from looking elsewhere in the Bible? If so, why draw the line at the addition of that understanding only?

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