What Would You Have Asked Lazarus?

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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LowlyOne
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#91

Post by LowlyOne » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:43 pm

Isaiah 14:5 The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked, The scepter of the rulers; 6 He who struck the people in wrath with a continual stroke, He who ruled the nations in anger, Is persecuted and no one hinders. 7 The whole earth is at rest and quiet; They break forth into singing. 8 Indeed the cypress trees rejoice over you, And the cedars of Lebanon, Saying, 'Since you were cut down, No woodsman has come up against us.' 9 "Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations. 10 They all shall speak and say to you: 'Have you also become as weak as we? Have you become like us? 11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.'

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#92

Post by ttoews » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:16 pm

Byblos wrote:Yet again you are correct that the act of pronouncing the punishment need not be continuous, in fact it is a one time event. But the act of exacting the punishment most certainly is eternal .....
that would depend on the punishment. Imprisonment that is to last forever requires an eternal exacting, whereas a death that is to last forever does not require an eternal exacting; however, both punishments can be said to last forever. Since you are RC, you might be interested to know that Augustine commented that the measure of capital punishment is not the time required for the exacting, but rather the measure is the fact the that one executed is forever separated from the world of the living. Further, the word "punishment" in Matt 25:46 is derived from a word used for pruning or cutting off. All in all, I find nothing in Matt 25:46 that prevents one from holding to annihilationalism.
...and very consistent with eternal torment.
yes, "eternal punishment" is a phrase that works for both eternal torment and annihilation...hence the absence of clarity in the phrase.
I really don't wish to go into a lexical discussion on what 'believe', sorry 'explicit' means :wink:. We'll leave that for another thread.
:lol: thanks....I don't think that I have the energy for another lexical study at this time.
Well, I think I've shown otherwise but then again, to each his own.
yah, we might have to agree to disagree on this one, which means I'll get to say "I told you so" when we meet in heaven (purgatory?)

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#93

Post by DonCameron » Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:10 pm

Hi Jac3510,

One of the things you said was...
It would be ridiculous to talk about "eternal life in hell," because the phrase doesn't mean anything.
Do you believe those in hell will be alive forever; that the will have life that will last forever? If so, then what's wrong with expressing it as "everlasting life in hell"?

If you don't feel this is the proper way to express it, then how would you express the fact that they are alive in hell forever?

Don

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#94

Post by Byblos » Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:59 pm

ttoews wrote:
Byblos wrote:Yet again you are correct that the act of pronouncing the punishment need not be continuous, in fact it is a one time event. But the act of exacting the punishment most certainly is eternal .....
that would depend on the punishment. Imprisonment that is to last forever requires an eternal exacting, whereas a death that is to last forever does not require an eternal exacting; however, both punishments can be said to last forever. Since you are RC, you might be interested to know that Augustine commented that the measure of capital punishment is not the time required for the exacting, but rather the measure is the fact the that one executed is forever separated from the world of the living.


I would agree with that, the same way eternal punishment in Mat 25:46 means the eternal separation from the world of everlasting life. It is not annihilation but a separation.
ttoews wrote: Further, the word "punishment" in Matt 25:46 is derived from a word used for pruning or cutting off.


I would agree with this too. Cutting off or pruning is also suggestive of separation, not annihilation.
ttoews wrote: All in all, I find nothing in Matt 25:46 that prevents one from holding to annihilationalism.


That's the one I don't agree with.
ttoews wrote:
...and very consistent with eternal torment.
yes, "eternal punishment" is a phrase that works for both eternal torment and annihilation...hence the absence of clarity in the phrase.


I just don't see it, sorry. It's a stretch and half to make annihilation fit in eternal punishment.
ttoews wrote:
I really don't wish to go into a lexical discussion on what 'believe', sorry 'explicit' means :wink:. We'll leave that for another thread.
:lol: thanks....I don't think that I have the energy for another lexical study at this time.
Well, I think I've shown otherwise but then again, to each his own.
yah, we might have to agree to disagree on this one, which means I'll get to say "I told you so" when we meet in heaven (purgatory?)


Indeed, although I suspect it would be heaven as purgatory's reserved for us catholics. :lol: :roll: :lol:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#95

Post by ttoews » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:39 pm

Byblos wrote:I would agree with that, the same way eternal punishment in Mat 25:46 means the eternal separation from the world of everlasting life. It is not annihilation but a separation.
funny, I think annihilation would result in a separation
ttoews wrote: Further, the word "punishment" in Matt 25:46 is derived from a word used for pruning or cutting off.


I would agree with this too. Cutting off or pruning is also suggestive of separation, not annihilation.
well, who is splitting(separating) hairs now? I can respond that cutting off or pruning is also suggestive of an action that will result in the death of the thing cut off, not its continued cutting/torment. Tell me, should we really pursue this by having me provide more alternate interpretations....or should we call it a day?
yes, "eternal punishment" is a phrase that works for both eternal torment and annihilation...hence the absence of clarity in the phrase.


I just don't see it, sorry.
an apology is only necessary if its because you weren't trying hard enough. :wink:

Indeed, although I suspect it would be heaven as purgatory's reserved for us catholics.
are you sure?...once I get into heaven it may become a purgatory for the other occupants....that said, your comment raises an interesting question.
If you don't mind my asking, what sort of catholic are you? I know RCs that believe that being in the RCChurch is the only way to ensure one's salvation and I know other RCs that think the RCC is best, but that it is not particularly important for one be a RC rather than a baptist. Where on the spectrum are you?

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#96

Post by Byblos » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:17 am

ttoews wrote:Tell me, should we really pursue this by having me provide more alternate interpretations....or should we call it a day?


You're right, analogies always fall short of the mark. And we all know how these types of discussion very seldom result in someone's change of opinion. All we can hope for is that readers who are on the fence wrt an issue, they can decide for themselves what is plausible and what is far-fetched.

ttoews wrote:
Indeed, although I suspect it would be heaven as purgatory's reserved for us catholics.
are you sure?...once I get into heaven it may become a purgatory for the other occupants....


That's funny (if you really meant it as a joke; it's really hard to tell sometimes. If not, I don't get it, please explain).
ttoews wrote:that said, your comment raises an interesting question.
If you don't mind my asking, what sort of catholic are you? I know RCs that believe that being in the RCChurch is the only way to ensure one's salvation and I know other RCs that think the RCC is best, but that it is not particularly important for one be a RC rather than a baptist. Where on the spectrum are you?


I believe in the Catholic Church of Jesus Christ (i.e. the universal church) as the umbrella under which christendom resides. While I do believe that the RCC is a direct descendent of the church Jesus established on earth through Peter the rock and through papal succession, I do not believe exclusivity was intended. (:shock: Oh, boy! Thanks ttoews, I can be excommunicated for this you know; all's well though, I don't believe in excommunication either; oops, there I go again...somebody stop me :lol: :twisted: ).

God bless,

John
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#97

Post by FFC » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:52 am

Ttoews wrote:are you sure?...once I get into heaven it may become a purgatory for the other occupants....
Byblos wrote:That's funny (if you really meant it as a joke; it's really hard to tell sometimes. If not, I don't get it, please explain).
I think Ttoews is saying that when he goes to heaven the general consensus is going to be "there goes the neighborhood". :lol: :lol:
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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#98

Post by Byblos » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:09 am

FFC wrote:
Ttoews wrote:are you sure?...once I get into heaven it may become a purgatory for the other occupants....


Byblos wrote:That's funny (if you really meant it as a joke; it's really hard to tell sometimes. If not, I don't get it, please explain).


I think Ttoews is saying that when he goes to heaven the general consensus is going to be "there goes the neighborhood". :lol: :lol:


That's what I thought and for once he'd be right (I just didn't want to take a chance and insult him in the process, know wadda mean?).
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#99

Post by ttoews » Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:35 am

FFC wrote:I think Ttoews is saying that when he goes to heaven the general consensus is going to be "there goes the neighborhood".
FFC, you are hereby appointed as my official translator...the pay sucks and the work is never ending, but alas the calling and appointment are irrevocable :wink:

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#100

Post by ttoews » Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:41 am

Byblos wrote:That's funny (if you really meant it as a joke; it's really hard to tell sometimes....).
if ever a doubt...asume that I am joking
While I do believe that the RCC is a direct descendent of the church Jesus established on earth through Peter the rock and through papal succession, I do not believe exclusivity was intended. (:shock: Oh, boy! Thanks ttoews, I can be excommunicated for this you know; all's well though, I don't believe in excommunication either; oops, there I go again...somebody stop me :lol: :twisted: ).
ahhh....so you are a good Catholic, but not a Good Catholic. Nice to know, thanks.

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#101

Post by FFC » Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:16 pm

ttoews wrote:
FFC wrote:I think Ttoews is saying that when he goes to heaven the general consensus is going to be "there goes the neighborhood".
FFC, you are hereby appointed as my official translator...the pay sucks and the work is never ending, but alas the calling and appointment are irrevocable :wink:
I already have a job like that...but I'll do this for free. :wink:
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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#102

Post by Jac3510 » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:20 pm

DonCameron wrote:Hi Jac3510,

One of the things you said was...
It would be ridiculous to talk about "eternal life in hell," because the phrase doesn't mean anything.
Do you believe those in hell will be alive forever; that the will have life that will last forever? If so, then what's wrong with expressing it as "everlasting life in hell"?

If you don't feel this is the proper way to express it, then how would you express the fact that they are alive in hell forever?

Don
I need to pick on your verbage a bit. Yo usaid, "Do you believe those in hell will be alive forever?" Now, are you using "alive" in the modern English sense or in the Biblical sense? You further asked if they will have "life" that will "last forever." Again, by "life," do you mean "self-consciousness"? If so, that isn't the biblical concept of "life" at all.

Consider a few verses with me (all quotes NIV)
  • Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned (Rom. 5:12)

    Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. (Rom. 7:9)

    As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, (Eph 2:1)

    When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. (Col. 2:13)
Notice in these four verses that man is dead, as far as God is concerned. And yet, being dead, he still is conscious of himself. He still lives, eats, breathes, etc. He is biologically alive. And yet, he is dead. Now, consider these verses in contrast:
  • 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." (Matt. 22:32)

    I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. (John 5:24)

    I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. (John 6:47)

    But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. (Rom. 8:10)

    But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. (Eph. 2:4-5)

    When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. (Col. 2:13)
Now, in each of these, men who were formally dead are considered "alive." In fact, in Matt., it is biologically dead men who are considered alive!

So, when you ask me if people in hell will be "alive," then I say, "In the biblical sense, of course not." These people have NEVER been alive. They were born dead, they died dead (first death), and they will suffer the second death in the lake of fire. If, though, you ask me if people in hell will be "alive" in the modern, English sense (i.e., a rock is not alive, but a tree is), then I will say of course they are.

Again, this goes back to the phrase "eternal life." The Greek is zoen aionion. Aionion has to do with the ages. What ages? We are in an age now, and when Christ returns and establishes His eternal kingdom, we will be in a new age. Now, this word is an adjective that describes zoen, which means "life." Thus, the type of life Jesus is talking about is the life (in the sense discussed above) that is fit for, or lasts into, or is the type of life that we find in the eternal age. And notice that if we believe, we have that life RIGHT NOW.

That's why I say you can't say "a person will have eternal life in hell." Eternal life, by definition, is the type of life a person experiences in heaven. However, they will experience torment and suffering that never ends, because they will be conscious of themselves for all of eternity, as per the verses I previously mentioned.

Does that help?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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#103

Post by LowlyOne » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:51 am

I need to pick on your verbage a bit. Yo usaid, "Do you believe those in hell will be alive forever?" Now, are you using "alive" in the modern English sense or in the Biblical sense? You further asked if they will have "life" that will "last forever." Again, by "life," do you mean "self-consciousness"? If so, that isn't the biblical concept of "life" at all.

Consider a few verses with me (all quotes NIV)


Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned (Rom. 5:12)

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. (Rom. 7:9)

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, (Eph 2:1)

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. (Col. 2:13)
Notice in these four verses that man is dead, as far as God is concerned. And yet, being dead, he still is conscious of himself. He still lives, eats, breathes, etc. He is biologically alive. And yet, he is dead. Now, consider these verses in contrast:

'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." (Matt. 22:32)

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. (John 5:24)

I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. (John 6:47)

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. (Rom. 8:10)

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. (Eph. 2:4-5)

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. (Col. 2:13)
Now, in each of these, men who were formally dead are considered "alive." In fact, in Matt., it is biologically dead men who are considered alive!

So, when you ask me if people in hell will be "alive," then I say, "In the biblical sense, of course not." These people have NEVER been alive. They were born dead, they died dead (first death), and they will suffer the second death in the lake of fire. If, though, you ask me if people in hell will be "alive" in the modern, English sense (i.e., a rock is not alive, but a tree is), then I will say of course they are.

Again, this goes back to the phrase "eternal life." The Greek is zoen aionion. Aionion has to do with the ages. What ages? We are in an age now, and when Christ returns and establishes His eternal kingdom, we will be in a new age. Now, this word is an adjective that describes zoen, which means "life." Thus, the type of life Jesus is talking about is the life (in the sense discussed above) that is fit for, or lasts into, or is the type of life that we find in the eternal age. And notice that if we believe, we have that life RIGHT NOW.

That's why I say you can't say "a person will have eternal life in hell." Eternal life, by definition, is the type of life a person experiences in heaven. However, they will experience torment and suffering that never ends, because they will be conscious of themselves for all of eternity, as per the verses I previously mentioned.

Does that help?
Exellent post Jac!

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#104

Post by DonCameron » Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:32 am

Hi Jac3510,

Yes, your explanation helped to explain why you feel that the term "everlasting life in hell" is incorrect.

I think you are saying that the term "everlasting life" or "eternal life" refers to the type of life that can only be experienced in heaven. Therefore associating that term with hell would not be acceptable.

While I know the Bible never uses the expression "eternal life in hell," I don't recall that it ever uses the expression "eternal life in heaven" either. Does it? - Romans 6:23

Don

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#105

Post by B. W. » Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:12 pm

DonCameron wrote:Hi Jac3510,

Yes, your explanation helped to explain why you feel that the term "everlasting life in hell" is incorrect.

I think you are saying that the term "everlasting life" or "eternal life" refers to the type of life that can only be experienced in heaven. Therefore associating that term with hell would not be acceptable.

While I know the Bible never uses the expression "eternal life in hell," I don't recall that it ever uses the expression "eternal life in heaven" either. Does it? - Romans 6:23

Don

Don, what do you base your view on - human distaste at the thought of eternal punishment? or God's view and His reason for it?
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