The TKGE

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
FFC
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The TKGE

#1

Post by FFC » Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:29 pm

Why did God place the tree of the knowlege of good and evil in the garden knowing that Adam and Eve would eat of it and pass sin onto all mankind?

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Re: The TKGE

#2

Post by BGoodForGoodSake » Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:04 pm

FFC wrote:Why did God place the tree of the knowlege of good and evil in the garden knowing that Adam and Eve would eat of it and pass sin onto all mankind?
One could argue that the experiences here on Earth prepare you to be better servants to the Lord. Like purification of iron in a forge.

Would you rather have been created perfect, along with these memories, which never occurred? All your experiences feed and become part of your soul.
It is not length of life, but depth of life. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

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Re: The TKGE

#3

Post by Byblos » Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:37 pm

BGoodForGoodSake wrote:
FFC wrote:Why did God place the tree of the knowlege of good and evil in the garden knowing that Adam and Eve would eat of it and pass sin onto all mankind?
One could argue that the experiences here on Earth prepare you to be better servants to the Lord. Like purification of iron in a forge.

Would you rather have been created perfect, along with these memories, which never occurred? All your experiences feed and become part of your soul.
While I agree with that, I think the question was along the lines of God's omniscience. If he foreknew Adam and Eve would eat from it, then he also foreknew man's fall and, by extension, God would be the architect of sin. No matter how much we try to make sense of God's omniscience, it still remains a true mystery. One way I think of it is that God knows every possible outcome to every decision we will ever make. Based on that he can prepare things in advance (one way perhaps is in the form of prophecies?) so that he can mold and shape us according to his will.
I don't know; does that make any sense?

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Re: The TKGE

#4

Post by bizzt » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:13 am

Byblos wrote:
BGoodForGoodSake wrote:
FFC wrote:Why did God place the tree of the knowlege of good and evil in the garden knowing that Adam and Eve would eat of it and pass sin onto all mankind?
One could argue that the experiences here on Earth prepare you to be better servants to the Lord. Like purification of iron in a forge.

Would you rather have been created perfect, along with these memories, which never occurred? All your experiences feed and become part of your soul.
While I agree with that, I think the question was along the lines of God's omniscience. If he foreknew Adam and Eve would eat from it, then he also foreknew man's fall and, by extension, God would be the architect of sin. No matter how much we try to make sense of God's omniscience, it still remains a true mystery. One way I think of it is that God knows every possible outcome to every decision we will ever make. Based on that he can prepare things in advance (one way perhaps is in the form of prophecies?) so that he can mold and shape us according to his will.
I don't know; does that make any sense?
Sounds good to me Byblos :wink:

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Re: The TKGE

#5

Post by FFC » Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:49 pm

bizzt wrote:
Byblos wrote:
BGoodForGoodSake wrote:
FFC wrote:Why did God place the tree of the knowlege of good and evil in the garden knowing that Adam and Eve would eat of it and pass sin onto all mankind?
One could argue that the experiences here on Earth prepare you to be better servants to the Lord. Like purification of iron in a forge.

Would you rather have been created perfect, along with these memories, which never occurred? All your experiences feed and become part of your soul.
While I agree with that, I think the question was along the lines of God's omniscience. If he foreknew Adam and Eve would eat from it, then he also foreknew man's fall and, by extension, God would be the architect of sin. No matter how much we try to make sense of God's omniscience, it still remains a true mystery. One way I think of it is that God knows every possible outcome to every decision we will ever make. Based on that he can prepare things in advance (one way perhaps is in the form of prophecies?) so that he can mold and shape us according to his will.
I don't know; does that make any sense?
Sounds good to me Byblos :wink:
Me too, Byblos. I have always struggled with this mystery. I know the Calvinist would just say that it is all part of God's pre-ordained plan to allow sin into the world so that He could show His mercy to the elect at the expense of the lost, but I can't accept that in light of God's love.

The only thing that makes sense is that God gave Adam and Eve free will, and in order for that free will to mean anything there had to be a test.

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#6

Post by Seeker of Knowledge » Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:06 pm

Why did God place the tree of the knowlege of good and evil in the garden knowing that Adam and Eve would eat of it and pass sin onto all mankind?
I think that he put the tree there because he loves us, without the tree there would be no free will. Free will without the choices too do bad things is not free will, even in paradise. Without free will, we could never choose God as our lord, which means we would be created into forced servitude. That is not the God I know. So why create paradise if we were going to fall anyway? For the same reason you do not convict someone of a crime before it is committed. It would not be just to judge us for a crime we had yet to commit, even if he knew that we would commit it.
Did that make sense too you? or is it just me

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#7

Post by FFC » Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:29 pm

Seeker of Knowledge wrote:
Why did God place the tree of the knowlege of good and evil in the garden knowing that Adam and Eve would eat of it and pass sin onto all mankind?
I think that he put the tree there because he loves us, without the tree there would be no free will. Free will without the choices too do bad things is not free will, even in paradise. Without free will, we could never choose God as our lord, which means we would be created into forced servitude. That is not the God I know. So why create paradise if we were going to fall anyway? For the same reason you do not convict someone of a crime before it is committed. It would not be just to judge us for a crime we had yet to commit, even if he knew that we would commit it.
Did that make sense too you? or is it just me
I think it makes perfect sense. Thank you.

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#8

Post by ryo dokomi » Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:44 pm

Seeker of Knowledge wrote:For the same reason you do not convict someone of a crime before it is committed.
reminds me of minority report.
Therefore, submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. James 4:7

it is all about submitting before God, then, and only then, will we have the promise given in Luke 10:19

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#9

Post by Poetic_Soul » Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:20 am

People tend to forget that there qwere 2 trees in the garden. That makes a big difference.

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#10

Post by Canuckster1127 » Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:23 am

Just an FYI. Rich has an article on the main board addressing some of these issues.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/tree.html
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

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#11

Post by R7-12 » Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:30 pm

Hello everyone,

The answer to the original questions is that a physical creation was needed in order to fulfill the requirement of the law which is the shedding of blood for sin.

Christ was slain from the foundation of the ages (i.e. before the physical creation), because a sacrifice was required as soon as the first sin occurred anywhere in the creation of God whether in the spiritual realm or the physical (Isaiah 14:12-20; Ezekiel 28:12-19; Rev. 13:8 ).

Flesh is by nature weak, thus it was inevitable that we would fall (Mat. 26:41; Rom. 8:3). However, this truth was considered (as were all true propositions) and included in the awesome plan of the one true and totally omniscient Almighty God.

Without the physical creation, the blood of the Messiah could not have been shed. Therefore the creation was a requirement for the fulfillment of the law (Heb. 9:22).

That fact, by the way, is a powerful truth worthy of contemplation, consideration, and meditation.

R7-12

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#12

Post by FFC » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:58 am

R7-12 wrote:Hello everyone,

The answer to the original questions is that a physical creation was needed in order to fulfill the requirement of the law which is the shedding of blood for sin.

Christ was slain from the foundation of the ages (i.e. before the physical creation), because a sacrifice was required as soon as the first sin occurred anywhere in the creation of God whether in the spiritual realm or the physical (Isaiah 14:12-20; Ezekiel 28:12-19; Rev. 13:8 ).

Flesh is by nature weak, thus it was inevitable that we would fall (Mat. 26:41; Rom. 8:3). However, this truth was considered (as were all true propositions) and included in the awesome plan of the one true and totally omniscient Almighty God.

Without the physical creation, the blood of the Messiah could not have been shed. Therefore the creation was a requirement for the fulfillment of the law (Heb. 9:22).

That fact, by the way, is a powerful truth worthy of contemplation, consideration, and meditation.

R7-12
What law are you referring to here?

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The Physical Creation and the Law of God

#13

Post by R7-12 » Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:09 am

FFC asked,
What law are you referring to here?
The Law of God.

There are many elements or components in the law of God. For example, there are laws concerning health such as the food laws given for our benefit. There are laws concerning tithing, animal husbandry and principles involving the proper use of agriculture. Another aspect involves a summary of the rules of conduct we are instructed to live by called the Ten Commandments. In the first covenant, specific regulations and ordinances were given for the temple and its services including the responsibilities of the priesthood. This aspect entailed the ordinances for dealing with sin on a physical level, i.e. the sacrificial system.

The principles involved in the law of sacrifice are spiritual in nature. The animal sacrifices merely pictured these spiritual aspects and were given as a guardian, schoolmaster, or tutor for the stewardship of all Israelites within the law system of God under the physical covenant. The goal of the sacrificial law was to lead those who were sincerely seeking God, to the understanding of the need for a perfect sacrifice in the prophesied Messiah. Thus, they would be lead to faith in the sacrifice yet to come for the remission of sin and thus be brought under the second covenant through faith by the grace of God.

Examples of this kind of faith include, Abraham, Sarah, Joshua, Noah, Rahab, and King David, all of whom will be in the first resurrection.

Thus, Christ came to fulfill the (sacrificial) law and the prophets (prophecies concerning him) by shedding his own innocent blood so that we did not have to pay what the law required with our own lives. Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) and the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23). For this reason Jesus Christ is the central feature in the law of God because he came to provide what the law required so that we might have life through faith in his sacrifice according to the word of God. Therefore the law of God stands.

The goal of the entire law of God is to bring the fallen creation through a system that provides redemption from sin (breaking the law) through repentance, baptism and faith in Christ's blood (the gospel); imputed righteousness from God (a judgment of forgiveness from all evil); and the receipt of the promised inheritance of everlasting life (the covenant) by faith in God through His grace or mercy.

The law of God requires the shedding of blood for remission of sin, therefore, a physical creation was necessary to deal with the problem of evil. The shedding of blood is simply not possible in the spirit realm. And it was the Shining one, Satan, who was the first to break the law of God and thus the requirement for a sacrifice was brought into reality.

It was the one who became Jesus Christ who was willing to be that sacrifice, hence the scripture, “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8b).

Adam had the opportunity to do the right thing in the garden but he chose not to.

I hope that answers your question.

R7-12

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Re: The Physical Creation and the Law of God

#14

Post by FFC » Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:08 pm

R7-12 wrote:FFC asked,
What law are you referring to here?
The Law of God.

There are many elements or components in the law of God. For example, there are laws concerning health such as the food laws given for our benefit. There are laws concerning tithing, animal husbandry and principles involving the proper use of agriculture. Another aspect involves a summary of the rules of conduct we are instructed to live by called the Ten Commandments. In the first covenant, specific regulations and ordinances were given for the temple and its services including the responsibilities of the priesthood. This aspect entailed the ordinances for dealing with sin on a physical level, i.e. the sacrificial system.

The principles involved in the law of sacrifice are spiritual in nature. The animal sacrifices merely pictured these spiritual aspects and were given as a guardian, schoolmaster, or tutor for the stewardship of all Israelites within the law system of God under the physical covenant. The goal of the sacrificial law was to lead those who were sincerely seeking God, to the understanding of the need for a perfect sacrifice in the prophesied Messiah. Thus, they would be lead to faith in the sacrifice yet to come for the remission of sin and thus be brought under the second covenant through faith by the grace of God.

Examples of this kind of faith include, Abraham, Sarah, Joshua, Noah, Rahab, and King David, all of whom will be in the first resurrection.

Thus, Christ came to fulfill the (sacrificial) law and the prophets (prophecies concerning him) by shedding his own innocent blood so that we did not have to pay what the law required with our own lives. Sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) and the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23). For this reason Jesus Christ is the central feature in the law of God because he came to provide what the law required so that we might have life through faith in his sacrifice according to the word of God. Therefore the law of God stands.

The goal of the entire law of God is to bring the fallen creation through a system that provides redemption from sin (breaking the law) through repentance, baptism and faith in Christ's blood (the gospel); imputed righteousness from God (a judgment of forgiveness from all evil); and the receipt of the promised inheritance of everlasting life (the covenant) by faith in God through His grace or mercy.

The law of God requires the shedding of blood for remission of sin, therefore, a physical creation was necessary to deal with the problem of evil. The shedding of blood is simply not possible in the spirit realm. And it was the Shining one, Satan, who was the first to break the law of God and thus the requirement for a sacrifice was brought into reality.

It was the one who became Jesus Christ who was willing to be that sacrifice, hence the scripture, “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8b).

Adam had the opportunity to do the right thing in the garden but he chose not to.

I hope that answers your question.

R7-12
I was with you until you brought up Satan. Are you saying that Satan can be redeemed? That Christ's sacrifice can cover him?

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#15

Post by R7-12 » Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:05 pm

Well, this is a tough subject and not one that most people have given much thought to. I won't get into it here but I will leave you with a few thoughts on the subject.

God is not a respecter of persons and His law says this kind of attitude is contrary to truth (Deut. 1:17), thus all of fallen creation must have an opportunity for repentance otherwise God would be unfair (Deut. 10:17; Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; 1 Tim. 5:21).

The angels are created beings of God and therefore sons of God and our fellow brethren. Therefore, as their Father, God wants that none should perish (2 Pet. 3:9; Rev. 19:10, 22:9). The host who have broken the law of God will face a time of decision and judgment (Jude 6).

In order for a spirit being to die, he must be made flesh. This is also what the Adversary will experience. Read Isaiah 14:12-16 with this in mind.

Whether he or the any of the fallen host repent is up to them.

Re-read the story of the prodigal son, Luke 15:11-32. It introduces concepts that expose many mainstream doctrines and sheds light on what the concepts in it are actually revealing.

Consider Colossians 1:19-20,
For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

God's plan includes all of creation.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now (Rom. 8:18-22, NKJV).

Note: This is not something I am going to argue about, nor is this the topic of this thread. I merely provided a few thoughts to consider because the topic was brought up.

I hope you understand.

R7-12

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