Hell – is it Relevant Today?

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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SUGAAAAA
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#16

Post by SUGAAAAA » Fri Nov 11, 2005 10:44 am

I've read "A Divine Revelation of Hell" and, from what I know, does a pretty good job on describing hell... Every night, for 30 nights, Jesus visits her and takes her into hell and tells her to write a book about it, and that it will save many souls. Hell is described as a human body, each body part representing a different chamber in hell...


In the book, the souls are kept inside skeletons, and they remain in small pits of fire, and demons come to torture them constantly (some souls are kept in walls, others in cages, depending on how sinful you were)... towards the end, Jesus takes her into the heart of hell (where Satan is kept) and he leaves her there, so she can fully experience the horrors of hell, and she suffers for quite some time (many hours, is all she says)... The book ends with Jesus giving her a few revelations of Heaven, but she has written an entire book on that as well. Throughout the book, she practically begs the reader to kneel before the Lord, repent your sins, and to trust in God....


and there you have it. either her 30 day Revelations were all real, or she's a huge liar.

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#17

Post by Fortigurn » Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:56 pm

It's always interesting when people make theological claims which aren't found in the Bible.

I rank this book right up there with the Book of Mormon. :lol:

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#18

Post by Judah » Fri Nov 11, 2005 4:10 pm

Locker wrote: Does anyone have any resources on the christian perspective on Hell and the after life - both NT and OT?

I am looking fer books on subject. Any recommendations?
Locker, you may also be interested in this book by Randy Alcorn of Eternal Perspective Ministries.
It is about Heaven rather than Hell, but that is still the "after life". He is careful to base all his writing on Scripture, and to be Scripturally accurate in everything.

When it comes to the book described by Sugaaaaa, I agree with Fortigurn. Sounds like someone writing from her own imagination and I personally prefer a proper academic validation by Scripture in these matters.

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#19

Post by B. W. » Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:07 pm

I went to Barnes and Noble and looked over book. Here is my opinion.

It is not the book of Mormon, as it does not promote a new religion and new religious system founded after the book of Revelations states.

It is supra-revelation and thus its context needs to be harmonizing with the Bible. I cannot comment further on if it does harmonize or not as I do not have the time to examine the book properly.

I would say, read it as a reference tool and test it with scripture. I do not have problem with supra-revelation that does not violate scripture. I do have a problem when supra-revelation is used to promote a new religion, nullify scripture, and deny Jesus.

From what I have seen of book - it does not do this.

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#20

Post by SUGAAAAA » Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:54 pm

In her closing words , the author actually encourages you to compare the book with scriptures... I'll type the whole thing out:

I wish to assure you again that the things you have read in this book are true. Hell is a real place of burning torment. But I would also like to tell you that heaven is equally real and can be your home for eternity.

As God's handmaiden, I have yielded myself to the leading of the Lord Jesus Christ and have faithfully recorded those things which he has shown me and told me.

For best results you should read this book along with your Bible and balance what is written here with the Holy Scriptures. May God use this book for His Glory.

Rev. 20:13-15
Matthew 10:28
Luke 12:5
Luke 16:20-31
Psalm 9:17
Proverbs 7:27
Proverbs 9:18
Isaiah 14:12-15
Isaiah 5:14
Matthew 5:22
Matthew 23:33
Mark 9:43-48
Romans 10:9-10
1 John 1:9

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#21

Post by B. W. » Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:08 am

SUGAAAAA wrote:In her closing words , the author actually encourages you to compare the book with scriptures... I'll type the whole thing out:

I wish to assure you again that the things you have read in this book are true. Hell is a real place of burning torment. But I would also like to tell you that heaven is equally real and can be your home for eternity.

As God's handmaiden, I have yielded myself to the leading of the Lord Jesus Christ and have faithfully recorded those things which he has shown me and told me.

For best results you should read this book along with your Bible and balance what is written here with the Holy Scriptures. May God use this book for His Glory.

Rev. 20:13-15
Matthew 10:28
Luke 12:5
Luke 16:20-31
Psalm 9:17
Proverbs 7:27
Proverbs 9:18
Isaiah 14:12-15
Isaiah 5:14
Matthew 5:22
Matthew 23:33
Mark 9:43-48
Romans 10:9-10
1 John 1:9

SUGAAAAA,

Thanks for the info! I'll look into this as soon as I can!

God Bless and stay strong in the Lord!

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#22

Post by Locker » Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:49 am

Thank you all for the intell.

I am doing research on Heaven and Hell. I have tons of info on heaven but of Hell - lacks.

What I need is points of view on Genesis chapter two and three concerning the tree of knowledge and how it relates to the doctrine of original sin and thus reason for punishment etc...

Catch on?

I do work and I am on the road alot because of it - so please respond and if I do not return a reply soon - I will at a later date.

So - tree of knowledge -

original sin --

and reason for punishment --

any help would be a big help - thank you all and

God Bless

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#23

Post by B. W. » Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:42 am

Locker wrote:Thank you all for the intell.

I am doing research on Heaven and Hell. I have tons of info on heaven but of Hell - lacks.

What I need is points of view on Genesis chapter two and three concerning the tree of knowledge and how it relates to the doctrine of original sin and thus reason for punishment etc...

Catch on?

I do work and I am on the road alot because of it - so please respond and if I do not return a reply soon - I will at a later date.

So - tree of knowledge -

original sin --

and reason for punishment --

any help would be a big help - thank you all and

God Bless
Wow - Locker - you ask for a mouth full :shock:

Where to start? I guess with original sin. I will grant you a quote from a book on the subject and others can join in and grant their insights.

"Remember, sin is whatever makes life ugly, and that is why it is so original." (Quote Authors Book)

That is a quote from my Book. I cannot promote the title on this thread but I can quote it for a debate on original sin.

Original Sin goes much deeper than my quote but it serves as a spring board to explore it as it relates to the tree of knowledge and also regarding punishment/rewards as you seek for your own research.
-
Original Sin needs a definition - anyone game?
-

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#24

Post by Fortigurn » Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:18 pm

B. W. wrote:Original Sin needs a definition - anyone game?
How about 'Product of Augustine's imagination'.

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#25

Post by puritan lad » Mon Nov 21, 2005 5:35 pm

More likely David's and Paul's "imagination" (in your words) (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Romans 5:12).
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

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#26

Post by Fortigurn » Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:23 pm

puritan lad wrote:More likely David's and Paul's "imagination" (in your words) (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Romans 5:12).
I'm sorry, I don't see anything there about 'Original Sin'. Isn't it strange that everyone missed it until Augustine?

And please don't forget that the tendency to sin is not 'Original Sin'. The two are completely separate issues.

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#27

Post by puritan lad » Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:34 am

If you can't find Original Sin in the following verses, then you need to learn how to read.

Psalm 51:5
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

Psalm 58:3
"The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."

Perhaps you can try to rewrite these verses like you did 1 Tim. 3:16, but the Bible says what it says.
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

//covenant-theology.blogspot.com
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com/

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#28

Post by Fortigurn » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:09 am

puritan lad wrote:If you can't find Original Sin in the following verses, then you need to learn how to read.

Psalm 51:5
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

Psalm 58:3
"The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."

Perhaps you can try to rewrite these verses like you did 1 Tim. 3:16, but the Bible says what it says.
Firstly, I didn't 'rewrite' 1 Timothy 3:16. What happened there was you showed yourself uninformed.

Secondly, I'm looking very hard at these passages but I don't see 'Original Sin' here. Could you explain to me exactly how you reach this conclusion from these passages?

Any passages which articulate clearly this doctrine would also be helpful. An explanation of why it eluded Christians until Augustine would likewise be of interest.

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#29

Post by B. W. » Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:14 am

puritan lad wrote:If you can't find Original Sin in the following verses, then you need to learn how to read.

Psalm 51:5
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

Psalm 58:3
"The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."

Perhaps you can try to rewrite these verses like you did 1 Tim. 3:16, but the Bible says what it says.
Fortigurn wrote:Firstly, I didn't 'rewrite' 1 Timothy 3:16. What happened there was you showed yourself uninformed.

Secondly, I'm looking very hard at these passages but I don't see 'Original Sin' here. Could you explain to me exactly how you reach this conclusion from these passages?

Any passages which articulate clearly this doctrine would also be helpful. An explanation of why it eluded Christians until Augustine would likewise be of interest.
Mr. Fortigurn, just because it does not say 'original sin' in a direct quote does not mean that Sin is not original. The term implies all the scriptures where sin came from, what it is, and how it came to be. It is a single term used to identify massive amounts of scriptures.

Mr. Fortigurn you believe that Jesus was only just a mere mortal man, a representative from God much like an anointed king or prophet would be. If his doctrine is true, then Jesus broke the law of God claiming who he was, God would have also lied when He stated that He would not share His Glory with another.

We can learn a lot from you on this point alone when it comes to the doctrine of Original sin: how — you slant the scriptures to make God out as a liar — therefore — should anything you say be trusted?

Psalm 51:5 “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."

Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God” NKJV

Romans 5:12 “Therefore, just as through one man, sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned..” NKJV

Where did this sin originate? Jesus gives us a clue in John 8:42-44, “Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” RSV

Again in Genesis 3:1-7 “Now the serpent was the shrewdest of all the creatures the LORD God had made. - "Really?" he asked the woman. "Did God really say you must not eat any of the fruit in the garden?" "Of course we may eat it," the woman told him. "It's only the fruit from the tree at the center of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God says we must not eat it or even touch it, or we will die." "You won't die!" the serpent hissed. "God knows that your eyes will be opened when you eat it. You will become just like God, knowing everything, both good and evil." The woman was convinced. The fruit looked so fresh and delicious, and it would make her so wise! So she ate some of the fruit. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her. Then he ate it, too. At that moment, their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they strung fig leaves together around their hips to cover themselves." New Living Translation

Ezekiel 28:12-19 "Son of man, weep for the king of Tyre. Give him this message from the Sovereign LORD: You were the perfection of wisdom and beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God. Your clothing was adorned with every precious stone--red carnelian, chrysolite, white moonstone, beryl, onyx, jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald--all beautifully crafted for you and set in the finest gold. They were given to you on the day you were created. I ordained and anointed you as the mighty angelic guardian. You had access to the holy mountain of God and walked among the stones of fire. "You were blameless in all you did from the day you were created until the day evil was found in you. Your great wealth filled you with violence, and you sinned. So I banished you from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. Your heart was filled with pride because of all your beauty. You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth and exposed you to the curious gaze of kings. You defiled your sanctuaries with your many sins and your dishonest trade. So I brought fire from within you, and it consumed you. I let it burn you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. All who knew you are appalled at your fate. You have come to a terrible end, and you are no more." New Living Translation

Revelation 12:3-9 “Suddenly, I witnessed in heaven another significant event. I saw a large red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, with seven crowns on his heads. His tail dragged down one-third of the stars, which he threw to the earth. He stood before the woman as she was about to give birth to her child, ready to devour the baby as soon as it was born. She gave birth to a boy who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And the child was snatched away from the dragon and was caught up to God and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place to give her care for 1,260 days. Then there was war in heaven. Michael and the angels under his command fought the dragon and his angels. And the dragon lost the battle and was forced out of heaven. This great dragon--the ancient serpent called the Devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world--was thrown down to the earth with all his angels.” New Living Translation

Revelation 20:7-10 “When the thousand years end, Satan will be let out of his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations from every corner of the earth, which are called Gog and Magog. He will gather them together for battle--a mighty host, as numberless as sand along the shore. And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God's people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them. Then the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” New Living Translation

Yes, sin originated some where and by some one. It entered the world and polluted humanity. It did have an origin and thus original.

Mr. Fortigurn, do you believe that Satan, the devil, is not a being, is not a creature? Who, along with his comrades, walks about seeking whom they may devour? Whom or what to you believe the devil is? Satan?

This brings us to a unique position to explore — where did sin originate from?

-
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#30

Post by Fortigurn » Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:32 am

B. W. wrote:Mr. Fortigurn, just because it does not say 'original sin' in a direct quote does not mean that Sin is not original.
Yes, I am aware of that.
The term implies all the scriptures where sin came from, what it is, and how it came to be. It is a single term used to identify massive amounts of scriptures.
The term 'Original Sin' does not describe any collection of passages of which I am aware. The very idea that we are guilty of someone else's sin is a concept which God rejects explicitly in Scripture.
Mr. Fortigurn you believe that Jesus was only just a mere mortal man, a representative from God much like an anointed king or prophet would be. If his doctrine is true, then Jesus broke the law of God claiming who he was, God would have also lied when He stated that He would not share His Glory with another.
I have been through this with you before, please read my posts.

We can learn a lot from you on this point alone when it comes to the doctrine of Original sin: how — you slant the scriptures to make God out as a liar — therefore — should anything you say be trusted?

Psalm 51:5 “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

Psalm 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."

Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God” NKJV

Romans 5:12 “Therefore, just as through one man, sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned..” NKJV
None of these say anything about original sin. Indeed, Romans 5:12 says that death spread to all men because of sin. It does not say that guilt spread to all men because of sin.
Where did this sin originate? Jesus gives us a clue in John 8:42-44, “Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” RSV
Do you think that's a reference to Adam, the devil, or what?
Again in Genesis 3:1-7 “Now the serpent was the shrewdest of all the creatures the LORD God had made. - "Really?" he asked the woman. "Did God really say you must not eat any of the fruit in the garden?" "Of course we may eat it," the woman told him. "It's only the fruit from the tree at the center of the garden that we are not allowed to eat. God says we must not eat it or even touch it, or we will die." "You won't die!" the serpent hissed. "God knows that your eyes will be opened when you eat it. You will become just like God, knowing everything, both good and evil." The woman was convinced. The fruit looked so fresh and delicious, and it would make her so wise! So she ate some of the fruit. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her. Then he ate it, too. At that moment, their eyes were opened, and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. So they strung fig leaves together around their hips to cover themselves." New Living Translation
Yes, the serpent tempted Eve. And?
Ezekiel 28:12-19 "Son of man, weep for the king of Tyre. Give him this message from the Sovereign LORD: You were the perfection of wisdom and beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God. Your clothing was adorned with every precious stone--red carnelian, chrysolite, white moonstone, beryl, onyx, jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald--all beautifully crafted for you and set in the finest gold. They were given to you on the day you were created. I ordained and anointed you as the mighty angelic guardian. You had access to the holy mountain of God and walked among the stones of fire. "You were blameless in all you did from the day you were created until the day evil was found in you. Your great wealth filled you with violence, and you sinned. So I banished you from the mountain of God. I expelled you, O mighty guardian, from your place among the stones of fire. Your heart was filled with pride because of all your beauty. You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth and exposed you to the curious gaze of kings. You defiled your sanctuaries with your many sins and your dishonest trade. So I brought fire from within you, and it consumed you. I let it burn you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. All who knew you are appalled at your fate. You have come to a terrible end, and you are no more." New Living Translation
A prophetic judgment against the king of Tyre. Relevance?
Revelation 12:3-9 “Suddenly, I witnessed in heaven another significant event. I saw a large red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, with seven crowns on his heads. His tail dragged down one-third of the stars, which he threw to the earth. He stood before the woman as she was about to give birth to her child, ready to devour the baby as soon as it was born. She gave birth to a boy who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And the child was snatched away from the dragon and was caught up to God and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place to give her care for 1,260 days. Then there was war in heaven. Michael and the angels under his command fought the dragon and his angels. And the dragon lost the battle and was forced out of heaven. This great dragon--the ancient serpent called the Devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world--was thrown down to the earth with all his angels.” New Living Translation
The Roman empire (see Daniel 7), the manifestation of sin.
Revelation 20:7-10 “When the thousand years end, Satan will be let out of his prison. He will go out to deceive the nations from every corner of the earth, which are called Gog and Magog. He will gather them together for battle--a mighty host, as numberless as sand along the shore. And I saw them as they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded God's people and the beloved city. But fire from heaven came down on the attacking armies and consumed them. Then the Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” New Living Translation
Yes, another personification of the principle of sin.
Yes, sin originated some where and by some one. It entered the world and polluted humanity. It did have an origin and thus original.


I'm wondering now if you actually know what the doctrine of 'Original Sin' is. You seem to have a very different idea of what it means to the standard Reformed position.

The doctrine of 'Original Sin' is not that someone sinned in the beginning, or that sin had an origin.

I agree sin had an origin. I agree that we inherit from Adam a nature which is both mortal and inevitably biased towards sin. I reject the idea that we are all morally culpable for death from birth on the basis of inheriting the guilt of his sin.

Mr. Fortigurn, do you believe that Satan, the devil, is not a being, is not a creature? Who, along with his comrades, walks about seeking whom they may devour? Whom or what to you believe the devil is? Satan?


I believe that 'satan' and 'devil' are terms which are used to describe various entities in Scripture, some real beings and some personifications or zoomorphisms.

This brings us to a unique position to explore — where did sin originate from?
Well Scripture says it arose from the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. In other words, from within the human heart (James 1:14-15).

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