The Holy Trinity

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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Byblos
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The Holy Trinity

#1

Post by Byblos » Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:54 am

Fortigurn wrote:
Byblos wrote:Oh! Now all of a sudden everything makes sense. Well, I think it does warrant splitting hairs. In other words, you do not believe in the holy trinity.
The hairsplitting to which I referred was trinitarian definitions of the trinity, not whether or not my beliefs are the same as yours (which they most certainly aren't).
And thank God for that.
Fortigurn wrote:
And you have the audacity to attack Catholicism and label the pope as the antichrist?
Sure, why not? Many faithful Catholics have done the same.
Because first, you did it under the pretext of claiming to be Christian, which you are not. And second, because you claim someone else to be the antichrist when it is equally clear you are doing his work by preaching a false christianity (which is exactly what the antichrist would do). You ought to look in the mirror.
Fortigurn wrote:
You claim to be Christian and clearly you are not. True Christianity is ANY denomination that professes GOD, JESUS CHRIST, and the HOLY SPIRIT as the ONE TRUE GOD. THAT is indisputable history pal, and nothing you say will change that, not even the few out of context quotes you hold on to like a treasure to justify your false beliefs.
It might be history, but I don't think it's Scripture. But if you can find me a passage of Scripture which says that true Christianity necessitates a belief in the trinity, I'd love to see it.

This is a small token of the multitude of proof. There's a ton more. I would have only provided the link but thought it more poignant to actually post the material:

Christian doctrine is set forth by God's word as covenant, the Holy Scriptures. Scripture expresses God as three persons, yet one God. The three persons are namely, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: - Deuteronomy 6:4


The Hebrew word for “God” is “Elohim” which is a plural. The Biblical Hebrew word for “one” in the above passage is “echad” which is a corporate oneness, not merely a numeric count. God is a plural number of persons yet one. The word one as "echad" is continually used in referrence to the one true God throughout the Holy Scriptures.

A clear example of the meaning of the Hebrew word "echad" may be also found in the celebration of the Jewish Passover. The three-pocketed matza holder used during Passover is referred to as an "echad". Consequently, it is the middle of the three matzas that is broken during the ceremony. The Holy Trinity of God and the brokenness of the Second Person of the Trinity are clearly revealed in this ancient tradition. The "echad", the one true God, is the Holy Trinity.

The true Biblical doctrine of the oneness of God expresses His corporate unity. Jesus is one God with His Father. This is what Jesus meant when He said, "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30).


Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: - John 17:20-22


* * *

It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. - John 8:17-18


If God the Father and His Son Jesus are not two persons, neither can they be two witnesses. It is clearly seen from the above words of God's Son Jesus that He and the Father are two persons. Together with the Holy Spirit the three are one.


For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. - 1 John 5:7


And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. - Genesis 1:26


Who is the “us” here? God did not create the world with assistance. Neither does God have a pronoun problem. The “us” is the Godhead, the Holy Trinity, of whom the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all were responsible for creation. Someone does not refer to Himself as "us" unless other persons are there also, hence, first person plural. Here is another passage where you see the same speech from our Lord…


And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. — Genesis 11:6-7


Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. — Isaiah 6:8


Isaiah was not volunteering to go for anyone besides the Lord who is mentioned in first person plural.


And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. — Isaiah 6:3


Notice the repitition, it was not in vain. It was to glorify the Father, Son and Spirit.




The Holy Trinity is revealed in Scripture in other ways as well…

Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them. — Isaiah 34:16


my = God, the Father

mouth = God, the Son (The Word)

spirit = God, the Holy Spirit


And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. - Exodus 3:15


God of Abraham = revelation of God, the Father

God of Isaac = revelation of God, the Son

God of Jacob = revelation of God, the Holy Spirit

The three are one God.

Same is seen in Exodus 3:16, Exodus 4:5, Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:26, Luke 20:37 and other places in Holy Scripture.


And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. — Matthew 3:16-17


Jesus = God, the Son

saw

Spirit of God = God, the Spirit

and heard

a voice saying “my” = God, the Father

All Deity, three persons, not one person.


Let us not forget this passage…

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: - Matthew 28:19


Also...

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. — Luke 1:35


Highest = God, the Father

Son of God = God, the Son (Jesus)

Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons


For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. - John 3:34


God = God, the Father

he, him = God, the Son

Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons


But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. — John 14:26


Father = God, the Father

my, I = God, the Son

Comforter, Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons


This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. - Acts 2:32-33


God, Father = God, the Father

Jesus, he = God, the Son

Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons


But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. - Romans 8:11


him, he, his = God, the Father

Jesus, Christ = God, the Son

Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons


Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. — 1 Corinthians 12:3


God = God, the Father

Jesus, Lord = God, the Son

Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit

“Lord” here shows that Jesus is master and that he is God, but not that he is Godhead.

One God, yet Three Divine Persons


Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. — 1 Corinthians 12:4-6


God = God, the Father

Lord = God, the Son

Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons


The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. — 2 Corinthians 13:14


God = God, the Father

Lord Jesus Christ= God, the Son

Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons


And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. — Galatians 4:6


God = God, the Father

Son = God, the Son

Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons


Ephesians 4:5 below is a favorite quote among U.P.s which says "One Lord, one faith, one baptism". United Pentecostalists take these words completely out of context and meaning when saying that the "One Lord" is the Godhead. Let us read it in its proper context…

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. — Ephesians 4:4-6


One God and Father = God, the Father

One Lord = God, the Son

one Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons


Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. — 1 Peter 1:2


God the Father = God, the Father

Jesus Christ = God, the Son

Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons


And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. — Revelation 4:8


It is true that the word “Trinity” is not present in the Bible but the doctrine is there, just as the doctrine of “Monotheism” is in the Scriptures without the actual word being present in the text.

Although the word “Trinity” was not coined until later, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was nevertheless present in the early church and was the belief of Christians as it is has been the doctrinal faith of Christians throughout the centuries and today.

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Re: The Holy Trinity

#2

Post by Byblos » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:16 am

Here's a little more for your reading pleasure. This is straight out of Catholic doctrine on the Holy Trinity.

BLESSED TRINITY

PROOF OF DOCTRINE FROM SCRIPTURE

A. New Testament

The evidence from the Gospels culminates in the baptismal commission of Matthew 28:20. It is manifest from the narratives of the Evangelists that Christ only made the great truth known to the Twelve step by step. First He taught them to recognize in Himself the Eternal Son of God. When His ministry was drawing to a close, He promised that the Father would send another Divine Person, the Holy Spirit, in His place. Finally after His resurrection, He revealed the doctrine in explicit terms, bidding them "go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:18). The force of this passage is decisive. That "the Father" and "the Son" are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive. The mention of the Holy Spirit in the same series, the names being connected one with the other by the conjunctions "and . . . and" is evidence that we have here a Third Person co-ordinate with the Father and the Son, and excludes altogether the supposition that the Apostles understood the Holy Spirit not as a distinct Person, but as God viewed in His action on creatures.

The phrase "in the name" (eis to onoma) affirms alike the Godhead of the Persons and their unity of nature. Among the Jews and in the Apostolic Church the Divine name was representative of God. He who had a right to use it was invested with vast authority: for he wielded the supernatural powers of Him whose name he employed. It is incredible that the phrase "in the name" should be here employed, were not all the Persons mentioned equally Divine. Moreover, the use of the singular, "name," and not the plural, shows that these Three Persons are that One Omnipotent God in whom the Apostles believed. Indeed the unity of God is so fundamental a tenet alike of the Hebrew and of the Christian religion, and is affirmed in such countless passages of the Old and New Testaments, that any explanation inconsistent with this doctrine would be altogether inadmissible.

The supernatural appearance at the baptism of Christ is often cited as an explicit revelation of Trinitarian doctrine, given at the very commencement of the Ministry. This, it seems to us, is a mistake. The Evangelists, it is true, see in it a manifestation of the Three Divine Persons. Yet, apart from Christ's subsequent teaching, the dogmatic meaning of the scene would hardly have been understood. Moreover, the Gospel narratives appear to signify that none but Christ and the Baptist were privileged to see the Mystic Dove, and hear the words attesting the Divine sonship of the Messias.

Besides these passages there are many others in the Gospels which refer to one or other of the Three Persons in particular and clearly express the separate personality and Divinity of each. In regard to the First Person it will not be necessary to give special citations: those which declare that Jesus Christ is God the Son, affirm thereby also the separate personality of the Father. The Divinity of Christ is amply attested not merely by St. John, but by the Synoptists. As this point is treated elsewhere (see JESUS CHRIST), it will be sufficient here to enumerate a few of the more important messages from the Synoptists, in which Christ bears witness to His Divine Nature.

* He declares that He will come to be the judge of all men (Matthew 25:31). In Jewish theology the judgment of the world was a distinctively Divine, and not a Messianic, prerogative.
* In the parable of the wicked husbandmen, He describes Himself as the son of the householder, while the Prophets, one and all, are represented as the servants (Matthew 21:33 sqq.).
* He is the Lord of Angels, who execute His command (Matthew 24:31).
* He approves the confession of Peter when he recognizes Him, not as Messias -- a step long since taken by all the Apostles -- but explicitly as the Son of God: and He declares the knowledge due to a special revelation from the Father (Matthew 16:16-17).
* Finally, before Caiphas He not merely declares Himself to be the Messias, but in reply to a second and distinct question affirms His claim to be the Son of God. He is instantly declared by the high priest to be guilty of blasphemy, an offense which could not have been attached to the claim to be simply the Messias (Luke 22:66-71).

St. John's testimony is yet more explicit than that of the Synoptists. He expressly asserts that the very purpose of his Gospel is to establish the Divinity of Jesus Christ (John 20:31). In the prologue he identifies Him with the Word, the only-begotten of the Father, Who from all eternity exists with God, Who is God (John 1:1-18). The immanence of the Son in the Father and of the Father in the Son is declared in Christ's words to St. Philip: "Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?" (14:10), and in other passages no less explicit (14:7; 16:15; 17:21). The oneness of Their power and Their action is affirmed: "Whatever he [the Father] does, the Son also does in like manner" (5:19, cf. 10:38); and to the Son no less than to the Father belongs the Divine attribute of conferring life on whom He will (5:21). In 10:29, Christ expressly teaches His unity of essence with the Father: "That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all . . . I and the Father are one." The words, "That which my Father hath given me," can, having regard to the context, have no other meaning than the Divine Name, possessed in its fullness by the Son as by the Father.

Rationalist critics lay great stress upon the text: "The Father is greater than I" (14:28). They argue that this suffices to establish that the author of the Gospel held subordinationist views, and they expound in this sense certain texts in which the Son declares His dependence on the Father (5:19; 8:28). In point of fact the doctrine of the Incarnation involves that, in regard of His Human Nature, the Son should be less than the Father. No argument against Catholic doctrine can, therefore, be drawn from this text. So too, the passages referring to the dependence of the Son upon the Father do but express what is essential to Trinitarian dogma, namely, that the Father is the supreme source from Whom the Divine Nature and perfections flow to the Son. (On the essential difference between St. John's doctrine as to the Person of Christ and the Logos doctrine of the Alexandrine Philo, to which many Rationalists have attempted to trace it, see LOGOS.)

In regard to the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, the passages which can be cited from the Synoptists as attesting His distinct personality are few. The words of Gabriel (Luke 1:35), having regard to the use of the term, "the Spirit," in the Old Testament, to signify God as operative in His creatures, can hardly be said to contain a definite revelation of the doctrine. For the same reason it is dubious whether Christ's warning to the Pharisees as regards blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31) can be brought forward as proof. But in Luke 12:12, "The Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what you must say" (Matthew 10:20, and Luke 24:49), His personality is clearly implied. These passages, taken in connection with Matthew 28:19, postulate the existence of such teaching as we find in the discourses in the Cenacle reported by St. John (14, 15, 16). We have in these chapters the necessary preparation for the baptismal commission. In them the Apostles are instructed not only as the personality of the Spirit, but as to His office towards the Church. His work is to teach whatsoever He shall hear (16:13) to bring back their minds the teaching of Christ (14:26), to convince the world of sin (16:8). It is evident that, were the Spirit not a Person, Christ could not have spoken of His presence with the Apostles as comparable to His own presence with them (14:16). Again, were He not a Divine Person it could not have been expedient for the Apostles that Christ should leave them, and the Paraclete take His place (16:7). Moreover, notwithstanding the neuter form of the word (pneuma), the pronoun used in His regard is the masculine ekeinos. The distinction of the Holy Spirit from the Father and from the Son is involved in the express statements that He proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son (15:26; cf. 14:16, 14:26). Nevertheless, He is one with Them: His presence with the Disciples is at the same time the presence of the Son (14:17-18), while the presence of the Son is the presence of the Father (14:23).

In the remaining New Testament writings numerous passages attest how clear and definite was the belief of the Apostolic Church in the three Divine Persons. In certain texts the coordination of Father, Son, and Spirit leaves no possible doubt as to the meaning of the writer. Thus in II Corinthians 13:13, St. Paul writes: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the charity of God, and the communication of the Holy Ghost be with you all." Here the construction shows that the Apostle is speaking of three distinct Persons. Moreover, since the names God and Holy Ghost are alike Divine names, it follows that Jesus Christ is also regarded as a Divine Person. So also, in I Corinthians 12:4-11: "There are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit; and there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord: and there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all [of them] in all [persons]." (Cf. also Ephesians 4:4-6; I Peter 1:2-3.)

But apart from passages such as these, where there is express mention of the Three Persons, the teaching of the New Testament regarding Christ and the Holy Spirit is free from all ambiguity. In regard to Christ, the Apostles employ modes of speech which, to men brought up in the Hebrew faith, necessarily signified belief in His Divinity. Such, for instance, is the use of the Doxology in reference to Him. The Doxology, "To Him be glory for ever and ever" (cf. I Chronicles 16:38; 29:11; Psalm 103:31; 28:2), is an expression of praise offered to God alone. In the New Testament we find it addressed not alone to God the Father, but to Jesus Christ (II Timothy 4:18; II Peter 3:18; Revelations 1:6; Hebrews 13:20-21), and to God the Father and Christ in conjunction (Revelations 5:13, 7:10). Not less convincing is the use of the title Lord (Kyrios). This term represents the Hebrew Adonai, just as God (Theos) represents Elohim. The two are equally Divine names (cf. I Corinthians 8:4). In the Apostolic writings Theos may almost be said to be treated as a proper name of God the Father, and Kyrios of the Son (see, for example, I Corinthians 12:5-6); in only a few passages do we find Kyrios used of the Father (I Corinthians 3:5; 7:17) or Theos of Christ. The Apostles from time to time apply to Christ passages of the Old Testament in which Kyrios is used, for example, I Corinthians 10:9 (Numbers 21:7), Hebrews 1:10-12 (Psalm 101:26-28); and they use such expressions as "the fear of the Lord" (Acts 9:31; II Corinthians 5:11; Ephesians 5:21), "call upon the name of the Lord," indifferently of God the Father and of Christ (Acts 2:21; 9:14; Romans 10:13). The profession that "Jesus is the Lord" (Kyrion Iesoun, Romans 10:9; Kyrios Iesous, I Corinthians 12:3) is the acknowledgment of Jesus as Jahweh. The texts in which St. Paul affirms that in Christ dwells the plenitude of the Godhead (Colossians 2:9), that before His Incarnation He possessed the essential nature of God (Philemon 2:6), that He "is over all things, God blessed for ever" (Romans 9:5) tell us nothing that is not implied in many other passages of his Epistles.

The doctrine as to the Holy Spirit is equally clear. That His distinct personality was fully recognized is shown by many passages. Thus He reveals His commands to the Church's ministers: "As they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Ghost said to them: Separate me Saul and Barnabas . . ." (Acts 13:2). He directs the missionary journey of the Apostles: "They attempted to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus suffered them not" (Acts 16:7; cf. Acts 5:3; 15:28; Romans 15:30). Divine attributes are affirmed of Him.

* He possesses omniscience and reveals to the Church mysteries known only to God (I Corinthians 2:10);
* it is He who distributes charismata (I Cor., 12:11);
* He is the giver of supernatural life (II Cor., 3:8);
* He dwells in the Church and in the souls of individual men, as in His temple (Romans 8:9-11; I Corinthians 3:16, 6:19).
* The work of justification and sanctification is attributed to Him (I Cor., 6:11; Rom., 15:16), just as in other passages the same operations are attributed to Christ (I Cor., 1:2; Gal., 2:17).

To sum up: the various elements of the Trinitarian doctrine are all expressly taught in the New Testament. The Divinity of the Three Persons is asserted or implied in passages too numerous to count. The unity of essence is not merely postulated by the strict monotheism of men nurtured in the religion of Israel, to whom "subordinate deities" would have been unthinkable; but it is, as we have seen, involved in the baptismal commission of Matthew 28:19, and, in regard to the Father and the Son, expressly asserted in John 10:38. That the Persons are co-eternal and coequal is a mere corollary from this. In regard to the Divine processions, the doctrine of the first procession is contained in the very terms Father and Son: the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and Son is taught in the discourse of the Lord reported by St. John (14-17) (see HOLY GHOST).

B. Old Testament

The early Fathers were persuaded that indications of the doctrine of the Trinity must exist in the Old Testament and they found such indications in not a few passages. Many of them not merely believed that the Prophets had testified of it, they held that it had been made known even to the Patriarchs. They regarded it as certain that the Divine messenger of Genesis 16:7, 18, 21:17, 31:11; Exodus 3:2, was God the Son; for reasons to be mentioned below (III. B.) they considered it evident that God the Father could not have thus manifested Himself (cf. Justin, "Dial.", 60; Irenaeus, "Adv. haer.", IV, xx, 7-11; Tertullian, "Adv. Prax.", 15-16; Theoph., "Ad Autol.", ii, 22; Novat., "De Trin.", 18, 25, etc.). They held that, when the inspired writers speak of "the Spirit of the Lord", the reference was to the Third Person of the Trinity: and one or two (Irenaeus, "Adv. haer.", II, xxx, 9; Theophilus, "Ad. Aut.", II, 15; Hippolytus, "Con. Noet.", 10) interpret the hypostatic Wisdom of the Sapiential books, not, with St. Paul, of the Son (Hebrews 1:3; cf. Wisdom, vii, 25, 26), but of the Holy Spirit. But in others of the Fathers is found what would appear to be the sounder view, that no distinct intimation of the doctrine was given under the Old Covenant. (Cf. Gregory Nazianzen, "Or. theol.", v, 26; Epiphanius, "Ancor." 73, "Haer.", 74; Basil, "Adv. Eunom.", II, 22; Cyril Alex., "In Joan.", xii, 20.)

Some of these, however, admitted that a knowledge of the mystery was granted to the Prophets and saints of the Old Dispensation (Epiph., "Haer.", viii, 5; Cyril Alex., "Con. Julian.," I). It may be readily conceded that the way is prepared for the revelation in some of the prophecies. The names Emmanuel (Isaias 7:14) and God the Mighty (Isaias 9:6) affirmed of the Messias make mention of the Divine Nature of the promised deliverer. Yet it seems that the Gospel revelation was needed to render the full meaning of the passages clear. Even these exalted titles did not lead the Jews to recognize that the Saviour to come was to be none other than God Himself. The Septuagint translators do not even venture to render the words God the Mighty literally, but give us, in their place,"the angel of great counsel." A still higher stage of preparation is found in the doctrine of the Sapiential books regarding the Divine Wisdom. In Proverbs 8, Wisdom appears personified, and in a manner which suggests that the sacred author was not employing a mere metaphor, but had before his mind a real person (cf. verses 22, 23). Similar teaching occurs in Ecclus., 24, in a discourse which Wisdom is declared to utter in "the assembly of the Most High", i. e. in the presence of the angels. This phrase certainly supposes Wisdom to be conceived as person. The nature of the personality is left obscure; but we are told thnt the whole earth is Wisdom's Kingdom, that she finds her delight in all the works of God, but that Israel is in a special manner her portion and her inheritance (Ecclus., 24:8-13).

In the Book of the Wisdom of Solomon we find a still further advance. Here Wisdom is clearly distinguished from Jehovah: "She is. . .a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God. . .the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God's majesty, and the image of his goodness" (Wisdom 7:25-26. Cf. Hebrews 1:3). She is, moreover, described as "the worker of all things" (panton technitis, 7:21), an expression indicating that the creation is in some manner attributable to her. Yet in later Judaism this exalted doctrine suffered eclipse, and seems to have passed into oblivion. Nor indeed can it be said that the passage, even though it manifests some knowledge of a second personality in the Godhead, constitutes a revelation of the Trinity. For nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any clear indication of a Third Person. Mention is often made of the Spirit of the Lord, but there is nothing to show that the Spirit was viewed as distinct from Jahweh Himself. The term is always employed to signify God considered in His working, whether in the universe or in the soul of man. The matter seems to be correctly summed up by Epiphanius, when he says: "The One Godhead is above all declared by Moses, and the twofold personality (of Father and Son) is strenuously asuerted by the Prophets. The Trinity is made known by the Gospel" ("Haer.", Ixxiv).

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Re: The Holy Trinity

#3

Post by Fortigurn » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:00 am

Byblos wrote:Because first, you did it under the pretext of claiming to be Christian, which you are not.
Scripture please to prove that I am 'not a Christian'.
And second, because you claim someone else to be the antichrist when it is equally clear you are doing his work by preaching a false christianity (which is exactly what the antichrist would do). You ought to look in the mirror.
Scripture please.
This is a small token of the multitude of proof. There's a ton more. I would have only provided the link but thought it more poignant to actually post the material:
I have asked you to provide Scriptural passages which say that true Christians must believe in the trinity. I note with no surprise that you have provided no such passages.

I have been through this routine many times before, so I know all the usual arguments. I'm going to see the In Imago Nos of Genesis 1:16, the Trisagion of Isaiah, and the Comma Johanneum, along with the other traditional arguments (many of which have been discarded by modern trinitarian scholarship).

Here we go:
Christian doctrine is set forth by God's word as covenant, the Holy Scriptures. Scripture expresses God as three persons, yet one God. The three persons are namely, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Where does Scripture express 'God as three persons and yet one God'?

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#4

Post by Fortigurn » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:01 am

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: - Deuteronomy 6:4

The Hebrew word for “God” is “Elohim” which is a plural.
The word 'elohim' is a Hebrew word which is plural in grammatical number, but singular in grammatical subject where it is used with a singular noun (it is always used with a singular noun to describe the one true God). It does not refer to a 'plurality', still less to a 'plurality within a unity':
Elohim is not the only Hebrew noun that can be plural in form but singular in meaning. Such Hebrew noun forms are sometimes used for abstract nouns and as intensifiers. Gesenius' Hebrew Grammar devotes several pages to this subject. The following list is not exhaustive, but it illustrates the point.

Bearing in mind that the masculine plural ending is -im, while the feminine plural ending is -oth, consider these examples:

* zequnim
zequnim - old age (Genesis 21:2, 7; 37:3; 44:20.)

* ne`urim
ne`urim - youth. David was only a boy (na`ar), but Goliath "has been a fighting man from his youth [ne`urim]." (I Samuel 17:33.)

* chayyim
chayyim - life. This is used in the song "To life, to life, lechayyim" in the movie Fiddler on the Roof.

* gebhuroth
gebhuroth - strength. The singular form gebhurah is the usual word for strength, but the plural form is used in Job 41:12.

* tsedaqoth
tsedaqoth - righteousness. The singular form tsedaqah is the usual word, but tsedaqoth is used in Isaiah 33:15 - "he who walks righteously [or "in righteousness"]."

* chokmoth
chokmoth - wisdom. Chokmah is the usual form, but chokmoth is used in Proverbs 1:20.

* 'adonim
'adonim - lord. 'Adon means "lord," and 'adonim normally means "lords," but Isaiah 19:4 says, "I will hand the Egyptians over to the power of a cruel master ['adonim]."

* behemoth
behemoth. This word normally means "beasts", but in Job 40:15 it refers to one particular animal.
More here. Modern trinitarian scholars have largely abandoned the 'elohim' argument as flawed grammar and bad theology (see the excellent footnote on Genesis 1:26 in the New English Translation, for example - a conservative evangelical translation with a decided trinitarian slant).
Last edited by Fortigurn on Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#5

Post by Fortigurn » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:01 am

The Biblical Hebrew word for “one” in the above passage is “echad” which is a corporate oneness, not merely a numeric count. God is a plural number of persons yet one. The word one as "echad" is continually used in referrence to the one true God throughout the Holy Scriptures.
Firstly, the trinity is not a 'corporate oneness' (that would require a plurality of beings). Secondly, the word 'echad' does not mean what you think:
While it is true that echad is sometimes found modifying a collective noun (one family, one herd, one bunch, etc.) the sense of plurality actually resides in the compound noun with which it is associated, and not in the word echad itself! Echad appears in standard translations of the Bible as the numeral "one", and also as "only", "alone", "undivided", and "single." It usually means "one and not two", as we find in Ecclesiastes 4:8. Abraham was "only one man" (echad) in the New International Version's rendition of Ezekiel 33:24, and he was "alone" (echad) in the King James translation of Isaiah 51:2.

Koehler and Baumgartner's Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (1967) clearly states that the fundamental definition of echad is "one single." Any plurality, therefore, is not found within the word itself, but in the subject to which it is applied.
More here:
A clear example of the meaning of the Hebrew word "echad" may be also found in the celebration of the Jewish Passover. The three-pocketed matza holder used during Passover is referred to as an "echad". Consequently, it is the middle of the three matzas that is broken during the ceremony. The Holy Trinity of God and the brokenness of the Second Person of the Trinity are clearly revealed in this ancient tradition. The "echad", the one true God, is the Holy Trinity.
Firstly, I find it ironic that you are attempting to support a 4th century Christian doctrinal development with a medieval Jewish tradition which wasn't instituted until centuries later (the 'three-pocketed matza holder'). Secondly, I find it incredible that you are claiming that orthodox Jews would incorporate into their Passover ritual a reference to the trinity - do you really think that this is what they meant by it?

Thirdly, the Jewish response to this misrepresentation of their actions is found here:
Finally, it is with considerable satisfaction that I now quote Gregory Boyd (the indefatigable Trinitarian apologist), who has conceded that the echad argument is totally useless for Trinitarian purposes:
  • Even weaker is the argument that the Hebrew word for "one" (echad) used in the Shema ("Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord") refers to a united one, not an absolute one. Hence, some Trinitarians have argued, the Old Testament has a view of a united Godhead. It is, of course, true that the meaning of the word may in some contexts denote a unified plurality (e.g. Gen. 2:24, "they shall become one flesh").

    But this really proves nothing. An examination of the Old Testament usage reveals that the word echad is as capable of various meanings as is our English word one. The context must determine whether a numerical or unified singularity is intended.


    Boyd, Gregory (1995), Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity.
Notwithstanding this concession, you will often see Trinitarians claiming that echad denotes a "complex unity." Nothing could be further from the truth. Echad is the Hebrew word for "one", and it operates in the same way as the English word for "one."

Most Trinitarians do not realise this because they will usually accept what they are told without questioning it. Indeed, a quick search on Google will show that there are countless Trinitarian Websites which use the echad argument (1) without referencing sources, (2) without providing any of the OT examples which clearly demonstrate an alternative application, and (3) without citing a concordance or lexicon.
Please read it.

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#6

Post by Fortigurn » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:03 am

The true Biblical doctrine of the oneness of God expresses His corporate unity. Jesus is one God with His Father. This is what Jesus meant when He said, "I and my Father are one." (John 10:30).

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: - John 17:20-22
Your appeal to this proves to much. If you believe that Christ is making an ontological statement here, then the unavoidable conclusion is that Christ is the Father. Why do you think Oneness Pentecostals love this verse?

But Christ is not making an ontological statement. The unity to which he referred in John 10:30 is the same unity he speaks of in relation to his followers, himself, and God:
John 17:
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved me.
This is pretty strong stuff:


* That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee

* That they also may be one in us

* That they may be one, even as we are one

We are one with Christ and his Father, in the same way that Christ was one with his Father. If Christ meant 'I am one of the persons of the Godhead' when he said 'I and the Father are one', then this means we are all persons of the Godhead also. More here.

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#7

Post by Fortigurn » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:03 am

It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. - John 8:17-18

If God the Father and His Son Jesus are not two persons, neither can they be two witnesses. It is clearly seen from the above words of God's Son Jesus that He and the Father are two persons. Together with the Holy Spirit the three are one.
I agree that God the Father and His son Jesus are two persons. Why do you think I would dispute this? By the way, this says nothing of the Holy Spirit being either a person or being one with the other two as three persons in one God.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. - 1 John 5:7
This reference to the 'three that bear record in heaven' is not recognised as part of the original Scriptures by all reputable text criticism scholarship. The reading found in the KJV is spurious. It is is absent from every Greek manuscript except eight, all dating from the sixteenth century or later. These include 61, 88, 221, 429, 636, 918, and 2318. Of these 8 manuscripts, four contain the passage as a variant reading in the margin, added by a later hand.

Erasmus, in the first two editions of the Textus Receptus, did not include the passage, stating that he could not find it in any of the Greek codices available to him. After considerable pressure (and possibly the presentation of a ready-made "ancient copy"), Erasmus included it in his third edition. From here, it made its way into the KJV.

Bruce Metzger comments:
The passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript except eight, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late rescension of the Latin Vulgate...

The passage is quoted by none of the Greek fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian). Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lutheran Council in 1215.

The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian, Cyprian, Augustine), or in the Vulgate (B) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied AD 541-46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before AD 716]) or © as revised by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vallicellianus 9th centur.)

The earliest instance of the passage being quoted as a part of the actual text of the Epistle is in a fourth century Latin treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus (chapter 4), attributed either to the Spanish heretic Priscillian (died about 385CE) or to his follower Bishop Instantius...<br><br>

Metzger, Bruce M. (1971), A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament
I invite you to read the summary of evidence against it in the NET footnote to this passage.

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#8

Post by Fortigurn » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:04 am

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. - Genesis 1:26

Who is the “us” here? God did not create the world with assistance. Neither does God have a pronoun problem. The “us” is the Godhead, the Holy Trinity, of whom the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all were responsible for creation. Someone does not refer to Himself as "us" unless other persons are there also, hence, first person plural. Here is another passage where you see the same speech from our Lord…

And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. — Genesis 11:6-7

Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. — Isaiah 6:8. Isaiah was not volunteering to go for anyone besides the Lord who is mentioned in first person plural. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. — Isaiah 6:3. Notice the repitition, it was not in vain. It was to glorify the Father, Son and Spirit.
We turn now to the NET Bible (you can find it here), and read this from their footnote on Genesis 1:26:
The plural form of the verb has been the subject of much discussion through the years, and not surprisingly several suggestions have been put forward. Many Christian theologians interpret it as an early hint of plurality within the Godhead, but this view imposes later trinitarian concepts on the ancient text. Some have suggested the plural verb indicates majesty, but the plural of majesty is not used with verbs. C. Westermann (Genesis, 1:145) argues for a plural of “deliberation” here, but his proposed examples of this use (2 Sam 24:14; Isa 6:8) do not actually support his theory. In 2 Sam 24:14 David uses the plural as representative of all Israel, and in Isa 6:8 the Lord speaks on behalf of his heavenly court.

In its ancient Israelite context the plural is most naturally understood as referring to God and his heavenly court (see 1 Kgs 22:19-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-6; Isa 6:1-8). (The most well-known members of this court are God's messengers, or angels. In Gen 3:5 the serpent may refer to this group as “gods/divine beings.”

See the note on the word “evil” in 3:5.) If this is the case, God invites the heavenly court to participate in the creation of mankind (perhaps in the role of offering praise, see Job 38:7), but he himself is the one who does the actual creative work (v. 27). Of course, this view does assume that the members of the heavenly court possess the divine “image” in some way.

Since the image is closely associated with rulership, perhaps they share the divine image in that they, together with God and under his royal authority, are the executive authority over the world.
More here. That and the other article on 'elohim' to which I have linked, answer all your challenges regarding this word.

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#9

Post by Fortigurn » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:04 am

The Holy Trinity is revealed in Scripture in other ways as well… Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them. — Isaiah 34:16

my = God, the Father
mouth = God, the Son (The Word)
spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. - Exodus 3:15

God of Abraham = revelation of God, the Father
God of Isaac = revelation of God, the Son
God of Jacob = revelation of God, the Holy Spirit
The three are one God.
This is eisegesis, because you are begging the question. You assert without evidence that this is the meaning of these passages. Can you find some proof that this is what they mean? And why is the doctrine of the trinity so consistently obscured?
Same is seen in Exodus 3:16, Exodus 4:5, Matthew 22:32, Mark 12:26, Luke 20:37 and other places in Holy Scripture.

And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. — Matthew 3:16-17

Jesus = God, the Son

saw

Spirit of God = God, the Spirit

and heard

a voice saying “my” = God, the Father

All Deity, three persons, not one person.
This is eisegesis, because you are begging the question. This passage says nothing about Christ being 'God the son', nor about the Holy Spirit being 'God' either. Nor does it say that they are 'All Deity, three persons not one person'.
Let us not forget this passage…

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: - Matthew 28:19
And? What about it?

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#10

Post by Fortigurn » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:05 am

Also...

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. — Luke 1:35

Highest = God, the Father
Son of God = God, the Son (Jesus)
Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons
This is eisegesis, because you are begging the question. This passage says nothing about Christ being 'God the son', nor about the Holy Spirit being 'God' either. Nor does it say that they are 'All Deity, three persons not one person'.
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. - John 3:34

God = God, the Father
he, him = God, the Son
Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons
This is eisegesis, because you are begging the question. This passage says nothing about Christ being 'God the son', nor about the Holy Spirit being 'God' either. Nor does it say that they are 'All Deity, three persons not one person'. Quite the opposite - this says that God (no reference to anyone else), sent someone else (someone other than God), and gave the Spirit (which is not called 'God' either), to him.
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. — John 14:26

Father = God, the Father
my, I = God, the Son
Comforter, Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. - Acts 2:32-33

God, Father = God, the Father
Jesus, he = God, the Son
Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons


But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. - Romans 8:11

him, he, his = God, the Father

Jesus, Christ = God, the Son
Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. — 1 Corinthians 12:3

God = God, the Father
Jesus, Lord = God, the Son
Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit
“Lord” here shows that Jesus is master and that he is God, but not that he is Godhead.

One God, yet Three Divine Persons


Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. — 1 Corinthians 12:4-6

God = God, the Father
Lord = God, the Son
Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. — 2 Corinthians 13:14

God = God, the Father
Lord Jesus Christ= God, the Son
Holy Ghost = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. — Galatians 4:6

God = God, the Father
Son = God, the Son
Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

Ephesians 4:5 below is a favorite quote among U.P.s which says "One Lord, one faith, one baptism". United Pentecostalists take these words completely out of context and meaning when saying that the "One Lord" is the Godhead. Let us read it in its proper context…

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. — Ephesians 4:4-6

One God and Father = God, the Father
One Lord = God, the Son
one Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. — 1 Peter 1:2

God the Father = God, the Father
Jesus Christ = God, the Son
Spirit = God, the Holy Spirit

One God, yet Three Divine Persons

And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. — Revelation 4:8
This is eisegesis, because you are begging the question. These passages says nothing about Christ being 'God the son', nor about the Holy Spirit being 'God' either. Nor does it say that they are 'One God, yet Three Divine Persons'.

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#11

Post by Fortigurn » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:05 am

It is true that the word “Trinity” is not present in the Bible but the doctrine is there, just as the doctrine of “Monotheism” is in the Scriptures without the actual word being present in the text.
I have no dispute with the word 'trinity' not being in the Bible. That's irrelevant. What is relevant is that the doctrine of 'three persons in one Godhead' is not found in the Bible. If I've missed it, please show me where it is expounded.
Although the word “Trinity” was not coined until later, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was nevertheless present in the early church and was the belief of Christians as it is has been the doctrinal faith of Christians throughout the centuries and today.
I need to see your 'early church' evidence for the doctrine of the trinity please.

I have asked you to provide Scriptural passages which say that true Christians must believe in the trinity. I note with no surprise that you have provided no such passages.

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Re: The Holy Trinity

#12

Post by Fortigurn » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:09 am

Byblos wrote:Here's a little more for your reading pleasure. This is straight out of Catholic doctrine on the Holy Trinity.
Part of my 'reading pleasure' was observing how this article contradicts an argument you made in your last post:
The supernatural appearance at the baptism of Christ is often cited as an explicit revelation of Trinitarian doctrine, given at the very commencement of the Ministry.

This, it seems to us, is a mistake. The Evangelists, it is true, see in it a manifestation of the Three Divine Persons. Yet, apart from Christ's subsequent teaching, the dogmatic meaning of the scene would hardly have been understood.

Moreover, the Gospel narratives appear to signify that none but Christ and the Baptist were privileged to see the Mystic Dove, and hear the words attesting the Divine sonship of the Messias.
Emphasis mine. Most of that article simply repeats the arguments I've already dealt with, but I might run through it more closely tomorrow to pick up any I missed.

I am completely prepared to deal with any of your posts on this subject. I don't mind if you copy/paste 10 pages at a time - that's fine with me.

All work I post is my own, unless otherwise indicated (when you go to some of my links, you'll find that several of these replies which I quote are actually someone else's work, my brother's in fact).

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Re: The Holy Trinity

#13

Post by Byblos » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:13 am

Fortigurn wrote:
Byblos wrote:Because first, you did it under the pretext of claiming to be Christian, which you are not.


Scripture please to prove that I am 'not a Christian'.
And second, because you claim someone else to be the antichrist when it is equally clear you are doing his work by preaching a false christianity (which is exactly what the antichrist would do). You ought to look in the mirror.


Scripture please.
This is a small token of the multitude of proof. There's a ton more. I would have only provided the link but thought it more poignant to actually post the material:


I have asked you to provide Scriptural passages which say that true Christians must believe in the trinity. I note with no surprise that you have provided no such passages.

I have been through this routine many times before, so I know all the usual arguments. I'm going to see the In Imago Nos of Genesis 1:16, the Trisagion of Isaiah, and the Comma Johanneum, along with the other traditional arguments (many of which have been discarded by modern trinitarian scholarship).

Here we go:
Christian doctrine is set forth by God's word as covenant, the Holy Scriptures. Scripture expresses God as three persons, yet one God. The three persons are namely, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


Where does Scripture express 'God as three persons and yet one God'?



As I said before, it is pointless with you. You argue but you do not read the proof presented before your very own eyes. And when you do read you do not comprehend. Two gigantic posts I have provided WITH SCRIPTURES and their CLEAR meanings yet you choose not to see.

Tell me, where do you see the words Christian or Christianity in the Bible? Are we to assume by their absence that christianity does not or should not exist? Because by that logic not even your false christianity exists. Your argument is futile and self-annihilating (no surprise there).

Tell me, where do you see the word Monotheism in the Bible? No? It doesn't exist? Are we then to assume no monotheistic religion can be true because the word does not exist in the Bible?

I have shown you all the scripture you could ever need, yet you do not see. I can only hope and pray (yes, to the one God/Jesus/Holy Spirit) that one day you get enlightened and truly see.

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#14

Post by bizzt » Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:04 am

Could everyone please provide the link as well to their Material when Posting due to Copyright issues, and Plagerism

Thanks Guys

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#15

Post by bizzt » Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:12 am

I would also like to ask a Simple Question

If Jesus Recognized the Father, and also the Comforter the one who would come after him and he recognized himself as the Son. Then where is the Problem??

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