Politics

Whether you are new or just lurking, take a moment to introduce yourself or discuss something general.

What's your political ideology?

Conservatism (example: Republicans)
9
64%
Moderateness
3
21%
Liberalism (example: Democrats)
0
No votes
Libertarianism
0
No votes
Socialism
0
No votes
Communism
0
No votes
Fascism
0
No votes
Theocracy (example: Islamic)
0
No votes
Other (name party)
2
14%
Apolitical
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 14

Dan
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#121

Post by Dan » Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:58 pm

ochotseat wrote:
bizzt wrote: How So. The bible Teaches it!!
Because the Catholic and Orthodox Churches teach that salvation is based on faith and works. If you do more good works, your stay in purgatory can be shortened even to the point that you may go directly to heaven. The Protestant Church teaches that salvation hinges on faith alone.
Wrong.

Salvation comes from faith alone, works are showing devotion to Christ as proof of your faith and as a sign that you want to give yourself up entirely to Christ. They shorten your stay at purgatory because purgatory is where people go before heaven. If you're in purgatory, you're going to heaven anyway, just being more devoted to Christ in your life by actively doing works in His honor shortens your stay there.

Way to twist words to make them meet your needs man.

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bizzt
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#122

Post by bizzt » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:50 am

Dan wrote:
Wrong.

Salvation comes from faith alone, works are showing devotion to Christ as proof of your faith and as a sign that you want to give yourself up entirely to Christ. They shorten your stay at purgatory because purgatory is where people go before heaven. If you're in purgatory, you're going to heaven anyway, just being more devoted to Christ in your life by actively doing works in His honor shortens your stay there.

Way to twist words to make them meet your needs man.
Hey Dan :)

I am interested in Something. Why would God Send you to Purgatory? If you are covered in Christs Blood and all God sees is Christ when he sees us why is Purgatory Needed? Can you give me some Scriptural Reference to Purgatory as well. Thanks Buddy!

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#123

Post by ochotseat » Tue Jun 21, 2005 6:47 pm

Dan wrote: Wrong.

Salvation comes from faith alone, works are showing devotion to Christ as proof of your faith and as a sign that you want to give yourself up entirely to Christ. They shorten your stay at purgatory because purgatory is where people go before heaven. If you're in purgatory, you're going to heaven anyway, just being more devoted to Christ in your life by actively doing works in His honor shortens your stay there.

Way to twist words to make them meet your needs man.
And what exact part of what I said was wrong? :roll: The Protestant Church teaches that you're saved if you accept Christ no matter what you do.
I am interested in Something. Why would God Send you to Purgatory?
Because Catholics believe that every Christian must temporarily suffer and be purified in purgatory before entering heaven. That premise is based on some biblical verses:

Bible passages which appear to support Purgatory:
There is no direct, unambiguous reference in the Bible to either the existence or the nature of Purgatory. Its existence has been inferred from a number of passages in the Bible:

2 Maccabees 12:39-45: This passage is taken from the Apocrypha which is recognized by the Roman Catholic Church and a few Protestant denominations as an integral part of the official canon of scripture. It talks about living persons praying for the dead. One could reason that there is no need to pray for the deceased if they are in Heaven; they have already received their reward. If the deceased is in Hell, then prayer would again be meaningless because they would be beyond help. One might surmise that there must be an intermediate state or location where a person's soul could be helped by the prayer of others.

1 Corinthians 3:15 discusses how each individual's good and bad works will be judged after death. This is probably the main text used by Catholics to support their belief in Purgatory. The passage refers to fire which will test the quality of each man's work. If it is burned up...he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. This passage could be interpreted as a reference to the purifying fires of Purgatory, which would eventually allow a person to escape. This reference cannot refer to Hell, because one cannot leave that place; it cannot refer to Heaven because there is no pain there; it must refer to some intermediate location. The key word in the original Greek is "zemiothesetai" which is translated as "suffer loss" in many versions of the Bible. But the original word also can refer to punishment; this alternative meaning is suppressed in most translations.

Revelation 21:27 states that no impure person will enter heaven. "But nothing unclean shall enter it..." Some reason that if a person dies with some minor sins still on their record, then they are obviously not pure; they must go to some place to be refined until they can attain heaven.

Other passages include: Psalm 141:8; Daniel 12:10; Micah 7:9; Zechariah 9:11; Matthew 5:26; Matthew 12:32 & 36; Luke 12:47-48; Philippians 2:10; Hebrews 12:22b; James 3:1; 1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:18; 1 Peter 7:37; and Jude 23.

Passages which discuss "penitent mourning or concern for safe passage of the dead" are: Genesis 50:10; Numbers 20:29; Deuteronomy 34:8; 2 Maccabees 12:44-45; 1 Corinthians 15:29; 2 Timothy 1:16-18; 2 Timothy 4:19. These have been used to imply the existence of Purgatory.

Bible passages which appear to oppose Purgatory:

Many conservative Protestants believe that various biblical passages on salvation indicate that a person would go to either heaven (if they were saved) or to Hell (if they were not) after death. Purgatory would thus have no function. Some of those passages are: Romans 5:18: "...by the righteousness of one (Jesus) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Paul appears to have believed that the unsaved would simply be annihilated and exist no more in any form; the saved would attain eternal life in heaven).

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

However, it can be argued that these passages do not preclude the existence of Prugatory. One might argue that perhaps Heaven, the free gift from God, is not experienced immediately at death. There remains the possibility that the gift of heaven will be delayed until after a person is purified in Purgatory.

Others claim that Purgatory does not exist since the saved will avoid the wrath and condemnation of God: Romans 5:9 states that: "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

John 5:24: "...He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Again, it could be argued that this verse does not preclude Purgatory. One could believe that the punishment in Purgatory comes from the loving chastisement of God, not from his wrath or condemnation. Thus, believers would have to experience Purgatory.

Many of passages do seem to indicate that a saved person has already been totally forgiven his/her sins -- past, present and future. 1 John is particularly clear on this point. Purgatory would thus not be needed, because the believers have already had their sins wiped clean. A few of these passages are: Romans 3:24: "...Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

Romans 8:1: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..."

1 Corinthians 6:11: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus..."
Titus 2:14: "Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify onto himself a peculiar people..."

Hebrews 10:14: "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
1 John 1:7: "...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
1 John 1:7: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleans us from all unrighteousness."

1 John 1:9: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

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#124

Post by bizzt » Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:42 am

Thank You OC! Great Information

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#125

Post by Felgar » Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:58 am

Agreed. Great post Ochotseat.

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#126

Post by sandy_mcd » Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:05 am

bizzt wrote:Thank You OC! Great Information
It is indeed good information; but in all fairness, credit should also be given to the author B.A. Robinson and copyright owners. The tail end of the website http://www.religioustolerance.org/purgatory2.htm is

References:

1. Robert Broderick, Ed., "Catholic Encyclopedia," Thomas Nelson, Nashville, TN (1987), Page 502.
2. Robert A. Sungenis, "Purgatory," at: http://net2.netacc.net/~mafg/prgtry01.htm

Copyright ©1998, to 2001 incl., by Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance
Latest update: 2001-DEC-28
Author: B.A. Robinson


[I complimented this poster on another article only to find he was not the author.]

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#127

Post by bizzt » Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:56 am

Thank you Sandy

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#128

Post by Felgar » Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:12 pm

For future reference, any post using another's material should be properly referenced.

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#129

Post by ochotseat » Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:14 am

sandy_mcd wrote:
[I complimented this poster on another article only to find he was not the author.]
Never claimed I was. Then again, I don't PM people first to call them names like some people, who shall remain nameless, do. :lol:

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#130

Post by bizzt » Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:36 am

ochotseat wrote:
sandy_mcd wrote:
[I complimented this poster on another article only to find he was not the author.]
Never claimed I was. Then again, I don't PM people first to call them names like some people, who shall remain nameless, do. :lol:
However OC it is plagerizing and against Copyright Laws if you do not give the links to your posts.

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#131

Post by Felgar » Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:33 am

ochotseat wrote:Never claimed I was.
Actually, by virtue of the fact that you have posted under your own user name (effectively signing the text) you have implicitly claimed that you wrote it. Legal issues aside, it is both proper and reasonable to explicitly state when posting someone else's work/writing.

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#132

Post by ochotseat » Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:15 pm

bizzt wrote:However OC it is plagerizing and against Copyright Laws if you do not give the links to your posts.
Not if you provide the title or author's name.

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#133

Post by bizzt » Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:30 am

ochotseat wrote:
bizzt wrote:However OC it is plagerizing and against Copyright Laws if you do not give the links to your posts.
Not if you provide the title or author's name.
That would be Title AND Author's Name my Friend

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#134

Post by ochotseat » Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:09 pm

bizzt wrote: That would be Title AND Author's Name my Friend
I doubt an author's name is necessary for citations from works such as Genesis from the Holy Bible or the Tempest. Who isn't aware of these works by now?
So did anyone vote for a third party candidate last year?

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Re:

#135

Post by Fisherman » Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:17 am

kateliz wrote:
ochotseat wrote:The Columbine shooters obtained guns from gun dealers who ignored the law, so punish the corrupt dealers, NOT innocent gun owners.
They weren't innocent gun owners. They were not deceived, I'm pretty sure, into believing that they got them legally. Those guys would have known what was going on. And I don't plan on punishing the innocent, only protecting them. And if they got them illegally than that says that we need more gun control!
I was just going to read this and go but I have to say that I absolutely do not need you to protect me. Who do you think you are? And do you think you're smarter than I am or that I'm an idiot? It is my "God given" right to protect myself. I choose to be proactive in my and my family's protection. Police can't do anything except write up reports after the fact. Police = Reactive Self Protection = Proactive If someone is about to hurt one of my loved ones or destroy our lives in some way, I'm going to try and stop them in any way I can. It just so happens that a gun will do it most efficiently so that's what I use. I think everyone ought to be packing. It makes for a more polite society. Not joking.
kateliz wrote:
ochotseat wrote:Most gang members obtain guns illegally, so your point is moot.
No, so you've just proven my point. If they can obtain them even illegally, we need more control.
No, he has nullified your point. Criminals will not be stopped or even slowed down by more of your big government freedom stifeling laws. We need to punish the criminals and not the law abiding.
kateliz wrote:
ochotseat wrote:So the government should be liable for every individual behaving responsibly and making the right choices for himself? :roll:
Where did you get that and what do you mean by it?
I think you know what he meant and where he got it. I just want to add that just because I own and carry a firearm does not mean that I harbour any ill will toward anyone. I hope I never ever have cause to draw my weapon, much less to fire it at anyone. But I'd rather have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. Someone who defends him/her self is not bad. Punish the criminals, not the defenders.
Ain't what I otta be, Ain’t what I wanta be, Ain't what I could be, Image

But, thank God, I Ain't what I used to be, And, Praise God, I, Ain't what I'm gonna be! :D

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