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AttentionKMartShoppers
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#196

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:02 am

Also, Christians don't claim to know ALL truth-just the most important parts.
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
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Blob
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#197

Post by Blob » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:05 am

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:
Blob wrote:This is an interesting discussion. As I mentioned in my introduction I am not religious which I guess means the label "atheist" applies to me.

But I can't say that not being religious feels like religion or faith to me. This is because I am not sure - maybe I am wrong and there is a god. Yet religious people usually say they are absolutely certain in their beliefs - and that is why it is called faith.

(If anyone would prefer to call me an "agnostic" then that's cool with me. I don't mind.)
Atheism as well as theism takes faith. I wish people would stop saying only theists have faith, and it's always blind...lol
Well I didn't say only theists have faith. Communists clearly do too, for example.

I was just saying I don't feel like I have faith because I have doubts. Maybe there is a god. Maybe you are right and I am wrong - I don't know and maybe one day I will change and be a non-believer no more. My mother was an atheist all her life and yet converted to christianity a few years after I left home. (In my intro post I said I am surrounded more by religious people nowadays - that is one reason why). As an atheist she always had doubts but now she is totally certain in her beliefs.

Surely theists and communists are faithful because of their unswerving certainty that they possess ultimate truth?

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#198

Post by sweden78 » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:08 am

the most important parts of evolution we do know. no-one can deny that.

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#199

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:22 am

Blob wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:
Blob wrote:This is an interesting discussion. As I mentioned in my introduction I am not religious which I guess means the label "atheist" applies to me.

But I can't say that not being religious feels like religion or faith to me. This is because I am not sure - maybe I am wrong and there is a god. Yet religious people usually say they are absolutely certain in their beliefs - and that is why it is called faith.

(If anyone would prefer to call me an "agnostic" then that's cool with me. I don't mind.)
Atheism as well as theism takes faith. I wish people would stop saying only theists have faith, and it's always blind...lol
Well I didn't say only theists have faith. Communists clearly do too, for example.

I was just saying I don't feel like I have faith because I have doubts. Maybe there is a god. Maybe you are right and I am wrong - I don't know and maybe one day I will change and be a non-believer no more. My mother was an atheist all her life and yet converted to christianity a few years after I left home. (In my intro post I said I am surrounded more by religious people nowadays - that is one reason why). As an atheist she always had doubts but now she is totally certain in her beliefs.

Surely theists and communists are faithful because of their unswerving certainty that they possess ultimate truth?
Oh, faith and doubt can go along together-they aren't opposites, they can exist at the same time. :-p lol Like, I used to have doubts about the OT and violence...but it didn't mean I didn't believe in Christianity...I just wasn't sure about some things, which lead me to read up about it.
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous

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#200

Post by Believer » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:23 am

Blob wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:
Blob wrote:This is an interesting discussion. As I mentioned in my introduction I am not religious which I guess means the label "atheist" applies to me.

But I can't say that not being religious feels like religion or faith to me. This is because I am not sure - maybe I am wrong and there is a god. Yet religious people usually say they are absolutely certain in their beliefs - and that is why it is called faith.

(If anyone would prefer to call me an "agnostic" then that's cool with me. I don't mind.)
Atheism as well as theism takes faith. I wish people would stop saying only theists have faith, and it's always blind...lol
Well I didn't say only theists have faith. Communists clearly do too, for example.

I was just saying I don't feel like I have faith because I have doubts. Maybe there is a god. Maybe you are right and I am wrong - I don't know and maybe one day I will change and be a non-believer no more. My mother was an atheist all her life and yet converted to christianity a few years after I left home. (In my intro post I said I am surrounded more by religious people nowadays - that is one reason why). As an atheist she always had doubts but now she is totally certain in her beliefs.

Surely theists and communists are faithful because of their unswerving certainty that they possess ultimate truth?
Well, in my opinion, your mother converted because she found truth, she "tested all things" as stated in the Bible. People who accept Jesus do have a life-altering experience that lasts a lifetime :P.

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#201

Post by Blob » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:28 am

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Oh, faith and doubt can go along together-they aren't opposites, they can exist at the same time. :-p lol Like, I used to have doubts about the OT and violence...but it didn't mean I didn't believe in Christianity...I just wasn't sure about some things, which lead me to read up about it.
I agree. I don't think christians are "know it all". My mother has changed a lot but I'm not suggesting for a minute she is arrogant now. She is still the one and same mother I have always known and loved.

But when I say "doubt" I'm talking about basic tenents of belief. I might be wrong and there might be a god. I don't want to open the debate too wide in the intro thread, but I agree that nature appears designed, for example, and that the fact that most people believe in god or other "higher realms".

Does your faith allow you to say the equivalent to me - can you sincerely say "I might be wrong and there might be no god" and really mean it?

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#202

Post by Blob » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:30 am

Thinker wrote:Well, in my opinion, your mother converted because she found truth, she "tested all things" as stated in the Bible. People who accept Jesus do have a life-altering experience that lasts a lifetime :P.
As it happens she was hit by a bus, almsot died, went in a coma and met Jesus (she is perfectly well now except for a couple of very minor ailments). As she herself says she would never have come to christianity through reason or a process of elimination.

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#203

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:31 am

Oh, doubts about basic doctrine.


If I can steal the title of a book, I don't have enough to to be an atheist...
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous

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Blob
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#204

Post by Blob » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:32 am

If people would like to continue discussion with me I'd be very happy but perhaps we should start a new thread? We don't want to send the intro thread off topic.

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Blob
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#205

Post by Blob » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:34 am

AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Oh, doubts about basic doctrine.


If I can steal the title of a book, I don't have enough to to be an atheist...
Did you see my question?
Blob wrote:Does your faith allow you to say the equivalent to me - can you sincerely say "I might be wrong and there might be no god" and really mean it?

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#206

Post by AttentionKMartShoppers » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:42 am

Blob wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Oh, doubts about basic doctrine.


If I can steal the title of a book, I don't have enough to to be an atheist...
Did you see my question?
Blob wrote:Does your faith allow you to say the equivalent to me - can you sincerely say "I might be wrong and there might be no god" and really mean it?
Yes, I saw it, that's why I was stealing the book title, I don't have enough to to be an atheist. No, my doubts are not as deep as yours. Especially since I've read so much about science and the Bible, to name of a few things, since I became a Christian.
"My actions prove that God takes care of idiots."

He occasionally stumbled over the truth, but hastily picked himself up and hurried on as if nothing had happened.
- On Stanley Baldwin

-Winston Churchill

An atheist can't find God for the same reason a criminal can't find a police officer.

You need to start asking out girls so that you can get used to the rejections.
-Anonymous

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Blob
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#207

Post by Blob » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:45 am

Okay, well thanks for addressing the question. I am new here and I appreciate you taking the time to talk patiently with me.

I agree that someone who says "there is no god and I am not prepared to say I might be wrong about that" is probably exercising faith.

But I don't feel I am. Do you think I am? If so why - and what do I have faith in?

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#208

Post by Believer » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:58 am

Blob wrote:
AttentionKMartShoppers wrote:Oh, doubts about basic doctrine.


If I can steal the title of a book, I don't have enough to to be an atheist...
Did you see my question?
Blob wrote:Does your faith allow you to say the equivalent to me - can you sincerely say "I might be wrong and there might be no god" and really mean it?
This isn't really my part to post, but if I may interject. I think for the religious people, the people that believe in God, they can have doubts, sure, many religious people have deconverted into atheism and many atheists have deconverted into religion. I believe it is the exposure we put ourselves through that allows the truth to become fruitful. If you "sincerely say "I might be wrong and there might be no god" and really mean it", that constitutes as being agnostic, because you MIGHT be wrong and there MIGHT be no God, not I KNOW it's wrong and I KNOW there is no God, that would be atheism. So as far as equivalency goes on faith that "I might be wrong and there might be no god" compared to "I know God exists, but I have doubts", I don't find it equivalent. It is either agnosticism or real faith in God with some doubts because it is based ON faith. People are unsure, but as science in the natural world progresses, I see more evidence for a God than no God.

This is minor, and believe if you will, but when I was very young in my single digit years at church camp, absolutely no one was around where my dad was at camp. For 15 minutes as my dad said, God AUDIBLY spoke to him when he was fishing, it was about business and a physical parable that had to do with business through fishing which was a supernatural thing of its sort. God told him something like the business he was currently working at was going to close because of problems, the business closed, and God told him that this wasn't what his destiny was going to be, working at poor jobs. My dad is now a very well known doctor and pet veterinarian, studies many things, has no real mental illnesses, and has been a Christian since birth.

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#209

Post by Blob » Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:04 pm

Thank you for opening up, that was an interesting post Thinker. In fact this is the sort of insight I came to this forum for. In "real" life it can be difficult to probe people's religious beliefs because you risk causing offense. On-line the anonymity seems to help.

Thanks again. :)

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#210

Post by Believer » Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:10 pm

Blob wrote:Thank you for opening up, that was an interesting post Thinker. In fact this is the sort of insight I came to this forum for. In "real" life it can be difficult to probe people's religious beliefs because you risk causing offense. On-line the anonymity seems to help.

Thanks again. :)
You're very welcome Blob, by the way, I love your avatar:

Blob
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