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UsagiTsukino
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#1

Post by UsagiTsukino » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:44 am

One question has been on my mind . God is all knowing and has a plan. So does that mean he already marked who will be saved ? That Jesus came here to save those who already saved? Or since he is all knowing he let Jesus come to save all ?

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Re: Question

#2

Post by Philip » Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:18 am

UsagiSukino, God desires ALL men come to salvation / faith in Jesus:

1 Timothy 2:3-4 English Standard Version (ESV)

"3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

But ALL are not willing to listen or ever do anything but continue to reject God's wooing and attempts to draw them to Himself. He gave us free will - and He will not force anyone to believe! And His Voice and call are only effective upon those WILLING, at some point, to respond. He is not limited as to how or when He draws people or despite whatever remote place they live, but He primarily brings knowledge of Christ to people via Christians bringing knowledge of the Gospel to them. However, God knows all hearts and future things - so, He already and has ALWAYS perfectly known the identities of ALL people, past, present, and future who will, at some point, come to faith in Him. So, the identity of all who will reside with Him forever are already known to Him.

And I would say God took His foreknowledge of all who He knew would NEVER desire to respond to Him in faith, when He decided where to distribute them in time and geographic place - as well as how He would eventually reach those SO WILLING, even though He would put them in places the Gospel wouldn't be otherwise found. No one is condemned per their ignorance of God - or of Christ. As the apostle Paul states in Romans, people can and do reject God without having knowledge of Christ - as such people often reject even the basic knowledge of Himself Paul tells us God has already made all men aware of. And for such rejecting pagans, knowledge of Jesus would do them no good, as their permanent desire is to only reject God - whether they have only basic knowledge He exists, or if the have the much fuller knowledge of Jesus and the Gospel. Many who rejected God in the flesh, nonetheless watched Jesus perform all manner of incredible miracles, and yet they accused Him of being empowered by the devil - so further knowledge of Christ isn't effective upon those only determined to permanently resist Him!

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Re: Question

#3

Post by Stu » Fri Jul 27, 2018 2:50 am

UsagiTsukino wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:44 am
One question has been on my mind . God is all knowing and has a plan. So does that mean he already marked who will be saved ? That Jesus came here to save those who already saved? Or since he is all knowing he let Jesus come to save all ?
I see it like this. God can choose to interact with us and not know the future and then He can do the opposite, like when giving out prophecy, etc.

For instance when He interacted with Adam and Eve in the garden before the fall I would say He just interacted on that basic level.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Question

#4

Post by Philip » Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:29 am

Stu: I see it like this. God can choose to interact with us and not know the future and then He can do the opposite, like when giving out prophecy, etc.
How can God not know the future? A) That would mean He could change His attributes, and B) that He is NOT all-knowing.

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Re: Question

#5

Post by Stu » Fri Jul 27, 2018 9:55 am

Philip wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:29 am
Stu: I see it like this. God can choose to interact with us and not know the future and then He can do the opposite, like when giving out prophecy, etc.
How can God not know the future? A) That would mean He could change His attributes, and B) that He is NOT all-knowing.
He can choose to be in the moment. Like He became Jesus, He changed His attributes. It seems that Jesus could tell the future and yet also remain in the moment as well. Like when John the Baptist died, Jesus seemed genuinely surprised. Or when Lazarus died Jesus wept. If He knew the future He wouldn't have wept surely?

All I'm saying is that God can choose to live in the moment.
Only when the blood runs and the shackles restrain, will the sheep then awake. When all is lost.

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Re: Question

#6

Post by Philip » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:03 am

Stu, what you refer to is called "kenotic Christology" - more about that here:
However, if Jesus were to not have all of the attributes of the Father and the Holy Spirit, He would be less than God - even while wearing the cloak of humanity. And if He was any less perfect that the Father or Holy Spirit, the He would not be perfect as they are - nor would He have been the perfect Sacrifice. Now, did Jesus choose to not utilize certain abilities because His mission had greater purposes? I think that is a different question.

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Re: Question

#7

Post by UsagiTsukino » Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:27 pm

So because God knows all why send Jesus ? He knows the next steps. So is he changing our destiny

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Re: Question

#8

Post by Philip » Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:45 pm

So because God knows all why send Jesus ? He knows the next steps. So is he changing our destiny
First, Jesus still had to make salvation possible by His work and sacrifice on the cross - this is what makes salvation possible and effective - that Jesus paid the price for our sins. ACCEPTING and believing that is another matter - many won't. And, of course, God has always known who will and who will never believe the Gospel or have faith in Jesus. But for those who do or eventually will, the crucifixion and resurrection were necessary to having made salvation possible for them. God required the perfect Sacrifice!

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Re: Question

#9

Post by UsagiTsukino » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:25 am

By God could still instead another ways to being those who don’t believe in Jesus to turn to him.

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Re: Question

#10

Post by Philip » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:24 am

By God could still instead another ways to being those who don’t believe in Jesus to turn to him.
God is unlimited in how He can reach an unbeliever - He doesn't need us to do it, but mostly that is how He connects people to the knowledge of the Gospel. The REAL issue isn't whether a person can know God or whether He can bring them the knowledge they need about Jesus, so to be saved. The real question is, is their heart and mind willing to listen and respond to what God wants to show them? The ONLY limitation from God's end is His refusal to violate a person's free will when they decide to only continue resisting God - He will not force them to embrace Him!

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